Why do you play the lonely Song? What would your board plan look like against Thresh and other aggro-control decks? I know it would be +4 Blasts and +2 Abeyance, anything else? And what do you side out?
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Why do you play the lonely Song? What would your board plan look like against Thresh and other aggro-control decks? I know it would be +4 Blasts and +2 Abeyance, anything else? And what do you side out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
BUT Pyroblast doesnt help us if we have it without chant. If we want to Combo with LED duress helps a lot more than Pyroblast. With Chant they are normaly equal.
Be a good player and don't resort to comboing out before you're ready. Just because you can combo out doesn't mean you should. That or learn how to properly bait spells and back them up with the blast so your real business spell can get through.
Seething Song is in the deck because 3 Cabal Ritual was too clunky, and 3 ponder you spent too much time cantripping. Seething Song produces an additional RR like Dark Ritual does BB, which is another way to think about it. Think of it like Cabal Ritual when you don't have threshold.
Hmm, sorry but I don't understand: some posts ago you say that with ponder there are too many cantrip and if we play them, we spend time only to play cantrip instead to winning. And I thought you're right.
But now you post a list with ponder. Why?
After a period when I play draw4 I return to play more solid cards like plunge.
Perhaps you play in a meta full of landstill, but in a meta with mana denials (wasteland,...), elements of lock (trini, chalice, rishadan) and fast clock (pyllar,...) I'm continuing to prefer cards like plunge.
2 Ponder seems to be a good number because you won't be cantripping into more cantrips. But instead more business spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Draw 4's are good in any metagame, they allow you to be more agressive with your mulligans for one, they fix terrible hands. They're must counters, or else the countermagic player will be overwhelmed. In a Stax metagame draw 4's put you ahead in resources compared to plunge.Quote:
After a period when I play draw4 I return to play more solid cards like plunge.
Perhaps you play in a meta full of landstill, but in a meta with mana denials (wasteland,...), elements of lock (trini, chalice, rishadan) and fast clock (pyllar,...) I'm continuing to prefer cards like plunge.
Isnt abeyance to slow? Ok, draw the cards is good,, but sometimes keep 1 mana for Chant is hard, now you need 2 mana more..
And i think that the Duress/Pyroblast discussion depends on your meta,, i now have 4 Chant main against control, and then 3 Swarms in the side, i keep mu 4 Duress,, so I also have protection against non-counter decks (cards like deed/EE)...
And i think i go test the draw4's.. I have a set of both (for SI) so I can normally start testing them :P
Mvg
I was just wondering if the best way to go in TES is to cut dark confidant main and play either more card draw or mana acceleration? I liked the addition of dark confidant b/c it really improves the control matchups by not only drawing more cards, but being able to find Orim's Chant which is very important.
I've seen Wastedlife many times get a few dark confidants out on the first turn and go crazy a few turns after. I'm not sold if cutting dark confidant is the best move possible for this deck. I believe he does add a lot to consistency.
From the old Goblins thread, "Is consistency better than speed?"Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I have not tried Confidants yet, but draw 4s seem to draw you just as much as Confidant would. But since I haven't tested Confidants, some one else should.
Dark Confidant has to stay on the table 4 turns in order to draw 4 cards. Why not just draw all 4 in one turn and not slow the deck down? That was my reasoning in cutting confidant.
My thoughts exactly. I am going to try and play this list soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
Creatures
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Xantid Swarm
Spells
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Infernal Contract
4 Brainstorm
1 EtW
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 LED
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Orim's Chant
2 Cabal Ritual
Sideboard
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Pyroblast
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tranquility
Only 2 Xantid Swarm seems silly. It's either 4 or 0, not between.
Edited for.... well, everything. Please refer to the Site Rules before posting again. -Jander
I probably need to fit 2 more in, but am having a hard time making the decision. I most likely will move them all to the SB, but then that makes that harder. :frown: . I hopefully will be able to test when I can find some Swarms.
I played the list with 2 Ponder,1 song and 2 draw4 spells yesterday on a local tournament and run 4-1. I lost against NQG/b with Stifles,Thoughtseize,Counterbalance and the normal Counter`s so i think i don`t have to shame for that :) I liked the list except the fact that it has only 9 lands. I think I will cut the last EtW for the 2nd Paradise because i had to mulligan more often than i do normaly and even the UW Bird.dec was able tohandle 10 TOkens on turn 1 -.-. But song and Ritual are really good.
My 35 cent,
NQN
I HATE, HATE, HATE Simplify and am not playing it. Back to Tranquility, playing some games last night I was playing vs. a deck with counterbalance. Counter/top stops Simplify cold. Tranquility breezes buy it. This happened in at least 3 games.
@ 9 lands- In my testing so far it's been fine, if I want to go back to 10 I'll probably cut the Seething Song. Seething Song is just an idea I've been testing as of late, innovation can't hurt as long as you know when to stop or when it's bad. One Seething Song doesn't seem to hurt the deck so far, but I'm not sure if it'll be staying.
@ Xantid Swarms- It may not be a bad idea to play these instead of Abeyance in the sideboard as a 2 of. It does only cost one. Jak, it's not 4 or 0. Playing two to back four Chant is perfectly fine.
I'm gonna play TES this weekend at the national tournament of my country, with this list (no Orim's Chants,, simple because I don't have them yet):
// Lands 11
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures 7
4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells 42
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [R] Dark Ritual
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast
Tips? Or questions why I play some cards?
Mvg
First off the land count seems high. I have loved the 9 land set up of:
4 Gemstone
4 City Of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
Tomb has never been that great so at least cut that one. 4 Simian Spirit Guides and 4 Chrome Mox seems mandatory. I would compliment the Swarms with some other sort of protection like Duress, maybe cutting the Ponders(Haven't tested the 6 cantrip combination and don't really see the need in my playing of the deck especially with draw 4's).
At the very least:
-1 Tomb Of Urami
-1 Cabal Ritual
+1 Simian Spirit Guide
+1 Chrome Mox
I played this list to a 6-1-1 finish tonight at my local store. Beating a variety of different decks, from Goblins to MUC. My one loss was a very close match vs. Blue skies in which I made a misplay game three which lost me the match.
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
1 [MI] Infernal Contract
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [B] Tranquility
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
I was looking at Jak's list and I think 2x Xantid in the board is probably better than 2x Abeyance because of threat density. I know, I know, I'm very complusive when it comes to cards going in and out of TES. I change my opinion on cards very fast, it's not that they're bad or shouldn't be in the deck. It's that I think there's something better at the moment. The draw 4's were crazy good today, I can even explain how many games they won me. With this list here, I've never had so many turn 1 wins with the deck I believe. It feels like I was playing a way more consistent version of Belcher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horror Business
I cutted 1 U. Paradise for a 4th Cabal Ritual, thats card is sooo good against discard, see that many times in this meta. I love it.
I never missed the 4th Mox/SSG. Mox isnt good if you have 2 or more and SSG doesnt count for storm.. I can get enough Red mana.
I'm also thinking of playing 4 Ponder and 2 Brainstorm. Ponder let you shuffle, thats very important when you cant even combo with the cards you draw/reveal. Brainstorm let you wait at least 2 turns then. But Ponder lets you shuffle!
Also the Draw4's werent good enough, i winned some games with them (turn 1 Bargain (D. Ritual) and Brainstorm (Chrome mox with Ponder)! gives you a good hand to combo turn 2. But most of the times,, the oppo had a to fast clock after him, so he beated me dead,, 20 and 10 lives realy makes the difference.
Maybe a second Tendrils. Now you sometimes dont want to discard for a LED, cause later that turn you maybe want to search with Tutor. Also, remove it with D. Returns can be hard, and when you play 2, you draw it many more times after D. Returns.
When you play Wish, with many mana and few storm, you would take the IGG many times, but Wish removes itself, so if there isnt an Tutor in your grave thats hard. So maybe play something as a Tutor in the side (1-off) to wish for,, and then tutor for an IGG, then there is a Tutor in the grave and you could combo..
What do you think?
Mvg
Paradise, Mox and SSG are in the deck to provide the initial mana you need to cast your rituals. With less of them in the deck you'll find more hands that you can't keep because you can't cast all the Dark Rituals, Rite of Flames etc. Not to mention the setup spells that you can't cast because of the lower land count.Quote:
Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ
Brainstorm is still better than Ponder in this deck because you sometimes have lots of dead cards in your hand that you want to put back on top. For example if you have 2x LED, 2 Lotus Petal, 1 Infernal Tutor and 1 Ill-Gotten Gains in hand the best play would be to play the tutor for IGG and crack LED's in response but because IGG is in your hand you have to go for DReturns.Quote:
I'm also thinking of playing 4 Ponder and 2 Brainstorm. Ponder let you shuffle, thats very important when you cant even combo with the cards you draw/reveal. Brainstorm let you wait at least 2 turns then. But Ponder lets you shuffle!
You should always try to calculate when your opponent is going to kill you so you can determine whether casting a Draw-4 as a setup or during comboing is the correct move. Sometimes this also means taking a mulligan or putting the Draw-4 back on top with Brainstorm even though you could cast it.Quote:
Also the Draw4's werent good enough, i won some games with them (turn 1 Bargain (D. Ritual) and Brainstorm (Chrome mox with Ponder)! gives you a good hand to combo turn 2. But most of the times,, the oppo had a to fast clock after him, so he beated me dead,, 20 and 10 lives realy makes the difference.
Playing 2 Tendrils main is wrong most of the time. This deck has so many ways to victory even when the Tendrils is discarded or rfg'ed that you generally don't care. For example you can always grab Tendrils with Burning Wish. Discarded Tendrils can be brought back via IGG which again can be tutored for with BWish or most of the time IT. If the Tendrils is unreachable you also have Empty the Warrens as backup. Although not quite as strong in finishing if played after turn 1, a Warrens for 18-20 Goblins plus Orim's Chant will give your opponent serious headaches.Quote:
Maybe a second Tendrils. Now you sometimes dont want to discard for a LED, cause later that turn you maybe want to search with Tutor. Also, remove it with D. Returns can be hard, and when you play 2, you draw it many more times after D. Returns.
In these situations (lots of mana, low storm, only BWish as Tutor) wishing for DReturns or a Draw-4 can also be quite good. The chance to get absolutely nothing to continue the combo when you go for DReturns is not that high. Especially if you can float a blue mana for Brainstorm/Ponder. Also remember that you still have Empty the Warrens as an option to stall or (if you can make about 10 tokens) race.Quote:
When you play Wish, with many mana and few storm, you would take the IGG many times, but Wish removes itself, so if there isnt an Tutor in your grave thats hard. So maybe play something as a Tutor in the side (1-off) to wish for,, and then tutor for an IGG, then there is a Tutor in the grave and you could combo..
I hope I didn't miss too much as it's been a long time since I last played TES. Anyway I hope this helps.
@dlevsApiJ: have you been the guy that made second place with TES at Dutch Legacy Champs?
http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/in...2285#msg172285
How many participants had the tournament?