[Deck] Survival

This deck's manabase can easily reach 4 colors. Why would you run Lightning Bolt instead? Swords fixes everything you named, plus Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. White's acces to Gaddock Teeg is important in a metagame full of TES and/or Ad Nauseum.deck of which I'm sure they appear in tournaments the coming weeks.

A couple of month ago, I've had some succes with a controllish list: 4 StP, 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Cabal Therapy and 3 Pernicious Deed. This let you laugh at any sort of aggro. Combo isn't that hard with 8 discard (the 4th Therapy on side) and 3 Gaddocks. Pernicious Deed and StP fixes every problem you might encounter with Threshold, if you played a discardspell before.

You might have noticed this takes a lot of slots, so I ran less silver bullets, just going for the 4 BoP, 4 Goyf, 2 Incarnations, 1 Squee, Rofellos, Ranger, 1 Shiekmaw, 2 Slivers (these pretty sucked), 1 Magus and some Witnesses.

I would leave the slivers now, just running one Wickerbough Elder.

I guess it's a different view on the case: just clearing problems with discard or removal instead of some fancy critter that requires a online survival.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Wickerbough Elder beats Blood Moon. Harmonic Sliver also requires white mana.

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In a deck with five basic lands, Blood Moon should not be an issue. Hell, 90% of these lists are running Magus of the Moon themselves. The fact that Harmonic costs a white hurts a bit, but it's still faster than any other removal. I'll take that anyday than having to wait an extra turn to kill a Counterbalance, Aether Vial, or worse, Jitte. Although it's really down to preference.

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Mongoose doesn't seem like a particularly good solution anymore in the world of Warren Weirdings. I'd rather run Mogg Fanatic. Fanatic answers Lackey and Fanatic gives you an awesome weapon against Ichorid. It's also sweet in Survival mirrors to take down opponents BoPs and, if they run them, Confidants.

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This now opens you up to trying to hit black, white, and red against a deck with land destruction. It's dangerous play. Personally, I very rarely go for a Taiga against Goblins and prefer the slowplay against them unless I can afford to get haste. Having access to the other colors is huge because it's where a majority of your removal is. But you're really arguing, imo, the wrong slot for discussion. One of the primary aspects of Nimble Mongoose is his offensive ability, which Fanatic basically doesn't have. Fanatic is there for removal only, and if that's the case, should be cut for removal. I'd be nerfing Swords for Fanatic if I was going to make that switch, but Swords does a better job at killing creatures, so it gets the nod.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Has anyone sat around and given any consideration to Lightning Bolt (Or even the more janky Firebolt) in BGR builds, rather than splashing white for Swords? It handles the Lackey problem. It gives you reach and works nice with Witness. It kills Painters. And it lets you bluff swing at things. And if you're running Shriekmaw and Big Game Hunter, there's very little that doesn't die to one of the three.

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In a BGR build, I think Lightning Bolt would be inferior to strict black removal, or at least Burning Wish. It isn't bad, but it isn't exactly good at killing everything by itself. Conditional Tarmogoyf removal makes me a bit uneasy. If your opponent topdecks Tarmogoyf and you topdeck Lightnight Bolt, that will suck. The main reason I still run Swords (actually this speaks for white in general) is because of big creatures like Tombstalker, Mystic Enforcer, Phyrexian Dreadnought, etc. Although you can have outs otherwise, Swords is the absolute best card in the game to deal with them. I run Swords in my deck for the exact same reason Dave Gearheart has them in It's the Fear (whom which I recall had a lengthy explanation of the card's inclusion).

Given that Ad Nauseam should push combo's numbers up, Gaddock Teeg because a lot more important now as well, or even Ethersworn Canonist. The non-white builds practically don't have a chance against these decks. Their game revolves around hoping to open multiple discard spells and then drop a Tarmogoyf and pray they don't recover. This is terrible against a deck like TES that can rip AdN, Burning Wish, or Infernal Tutor off the top. The lack of white basically turns this deck into a bye for them.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Wickerbough Elder beats Blood Moon. Harmonic Sliver also requires white mana.

Mongoose doesn't seem like a particularly good solution anymore in the world of Warren Weirdings. I'd rather run Mogg Fanatic. Fanatic answers Lackey and Fanatic gives you an awesome weapon against Ichorid. It's also sweet in Survival mirrors to take down opponents BoPs and, if they run them, Confidants.

Has anyone sat around and given any consideration to Lightning Bolt (Or even the more janky Firebolt) in BGR builds, rather than splashing white for Swords? It handles the Lackey problem. It gives you reach and works nice with Witness. It kills Painters. And it lets you bluff swing at things. And if you're running Shriekmaw and Big Game Hunter, there's very little that doesn't die to one of the three.

In my mind, white only offers Swords to Plowshares as a must now (Or Doran, if you're going the Rock-Survival sort of route). Other options include Loxodon Hierarch, Gaddock Teeg, and if you're me, Serenity in sideboard. Harmonic Slivers can often be Wickerbough Elders now. White's offering less and less.

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Mogg Fanatic is better at stopping Lackey than Mongoose, but it just isn't that offensive creature that the deck needs. Mongoose can stop Lackey from hitting, become a decent beater later in the game, and shines in control MUs. I haven't been unhappy with it.

Swords is completely worth it. Being able to kill everything Bolt does plus Goyf, Stalker, Enforcer, Dreadnought, etc just makes it an easy choice. Teeg and Hierarch have been awesome in the SB.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Swords is completely worth it. Being able to kill everything Bolt does plus Goyf, Stalker, Enforcer, Dreadnought, etc just makes it an easy choice. Teeg and Hierarch have been awesome in the SB.

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I am not sure that this is true. The more stable manabase of three color is nothing to dismiss, and Wish offers a great deal of flexibility to the deck. Sure, you can run both, but then the manabase is even worse. Certainly doable, but I am not sure that I would say that Swords alone is "completely worth" the white splash. It is certainly an option, and the white build certainly sees play, but I am not sure it is hands down a necessary color.

I believe that the combination of StP, Teeg, and Canonist make white valuable enough to have in the deck. It also gives you the sliver package. The deck really only needs 2 Savannahs to run, which is not hard at all with 7-8 fetches plus birds.

I have found out that 7 discard spells is probably the right number. 6 is do-able, but I believe with Ad Nauseum combo will be more prevalent at least for the near future.

Kind of off topic from what everyone is talking about but I was wondering if anyone has tested against a deck called tombstone? I was testing against it and I was getting destroyed every game. I find the difficulty level higher in beating most decks that run land destruction but tombstone was practically unwinnable for me. Are there any cards out there that could combat Survival's weakness to land destruction (not Stacks but more along the lines of recurring wastelands via loam)? I was wondering how our the Survival match-up is against aggro loam as well?

Maybe tombstone is a bad MU, but I have to say that a very fast deck like mono red burn or a goyf slight is a very big problem for this deck too. I think my deck needs a serious change...

Against Wastelands, the first thing that comes to mind is Quirion Ranger. But if you also have to deal with Devastating Dreams, Smokestack or Armageddon, there's always Sacred Ground (maybe with a small E.Tutor toolbox since that sounds better than running multiple copies of it).

The other strategy is to mostly ignore the Survival route if they are likely to get Wasteland recursion, and go for Aggro. I've had some success with that against Aggro Loam (which, despite Mox Diamonds, is not one of the fastest Aggro decks), where second turn Goyf, third turn Doran, backed up by discard or Shriekmaw, can be enough if they spend their turns playing Wish, Loam or Chalice.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

I am not sure that this is true. The more stable manabase of three color is nothing to dismiss, and Wish offers a great deal of flexibility to the deck. Sure, you can run both, but then the manabase is even worse. Certainly doable, but I am not sure that I would say that Swords alone is "completely worth" the white splash. It is certainly an option, and the white build certainly sees play, but I am not sure it is hands down a necessary color.

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Swords has been helping just as much as Wish against pretty much everything. The only thing I miss about Wish is that it could handle Humility in G1 or wipe Enchantress' board. To make this simpler, the pros and cons:

Pros if swords
Stops lackey
Handles larger creatures
Can be used for life gain
Better SB

Cons
Slightly weaker manabase
Loss if outs to Humility and enchantress

Pros of Wish
Beats Humility and enchantress
Stronger manabase
Versatility

Cons
Butchered SB
Slow
You don't get to run the best removal ever cast


If I missed any, let me know, but I just think swords does more for the deck.

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Originally Posted by Al-ucard

Maybe tombstone is a bad MU, but I have to say that a very fast deck like mono red burn or a goyf slight is a very big problem for this deck too. I think my deck needs a serious change...

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I don't think Goyf Sligh should be a problem matchup at all. Out of all the games I've tested, I've never lost to them. Early discard, swords, shriekmaw, BGH are usually too much for them.

I played Di's Survival again at a small 20-man-tourney yesterday and I am still impressed by the deck, though I lost twice again due to bad luck.

I lost against Aggroloam because he had always got Devastating Dreams g1 and g2 while I was manascrewed because i didn't see Chalice @ 1 comingin game 1.

And I lost against Ichorid. I got stomped game 1, game 2 I "locked" him with Gaddock Teeg and Yixlid Jailer and game 3 my opening hand also signalized "I WIN" (Extirpate, Lands, Survival, Birds), but what happened? He killed me on Turn 1. Obviously.

How would you fight Devastating Dreams normally?

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

How would you fight Devastating Dreams normally?

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You actually can't fight it, that's why I am whining about it. T_T

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

How would you fight Devastating Dreams normally?

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Like every other nonblue deck: you sandbag mana and hope to get back into the game faster than your opponent (this usually requires disabling their Loam somehow).

Either that or you can run the super tech of Burrenton Forge-Tender to save your creatures.

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Originally Posted by hungryboi

I don't think Goyf Sligh should be a problem matchup at all. Out of all the games I've tested, I've never lost to them. Early discard, swords, shriekmaw, BGH are usually too much for them.

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OK, this is an example of a game I play last friday:

First turn they play ape, you play bayou and thougtseize = 18.
Second turn they attack with ape and play 2 bolts = 10. In your second turn you will play dark confidant? nope! you will play stp on a 2/3 knowing that early they will play a tarmogoyf? nope! ok, lets say that you play sakura to chump block and gain one land to active deed.
Thirn turn they play mogg on sakura, and attack with ape (10- 2 = 8) and play price of progress, ok lets suppose that you only have 2 non basics (8 - 4 = 4), in three turns they deal you 16 damage and you need to active deed to kill a single ape because if they attack you only need a simple direct damage card to kill you, another "good" play to survive is play tarmogoyf and stp him to heal you!

I really think this is a bad MU, and in second match they have sulfuric vortex to make the MU much, much more difficult.

Just an interesting note, but at my local tournament I beat Aggro Loam 2-0, with game 1 I won through triple Devastating Dreams and a Pernicious Deed. I can't really describe how that happened though.

My newest list fights against this kind of stuff better than most, but won't be posted until after next Saturday. Plus, I don't really advise people running it because it's more designed for fun for the Anniversary event than what I normally do. :p But it happens to be much better at those matchups to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Al-ucard

OK, this is an example of a game I play last friday:

First turn they play ape, you play bayou and thougtseize = 18.
Second turn they attack with ape and play 2 bolts = 10. In your second turn you will play dark confidant? nope! you will play stp on a 2/3 knowing that early they will play a tarmogoyf? nope! ok, lets say that you play sakura to chump block and gain one land to active deed.
Thirn turn they play mogg on sakura, and attack with ape (10- 2 = 8) and play price of progress, ok lets suppose that you only have 2 non basics (8 - 4 = 4), in three turns they deal you 16 damage and you need to active deed to kill a single ape because if they attack you only need a simple direct damage card to kill you, another "good" play to survive is play tarmogoyf and stp him to heal you!

I really think this is a bad MU, and in second match they have sulfuric vortex to make the MU much, much more difficult.

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I have been reading this thread lately, although I don't play Survival decks (yet). But I have to ask a pair of questions:

- What kind of an opening hand does your opponent have that you play Thoughtseize, see a Tarmogoyf, a Mogg, a Price of Progress and two Bolts and you don't take any of them? What does he/she have in hand and what is finally discarded?

- You mention an own Tarmogoyf to play StP on. Is that Tarmogoyf in your hand to be played instead of the Sakura? If not, what's the point of playing it the following turn just to StP it? At the very least there are instants (Bolts and Price), sorceries (Thoughtseize) and creatures (Mogg and Sakura) in graveyards so it should be 3/4. Why play a Healing Salve for :1::g::w: that makes you discard a card when you could just leave a 3/4 Wall to stop and kill your opponent's Ape and survive?

As I said I don't play Survival (yet) so I have absolutely no idea about how to play a specific archetype or how its matchups are, at least no more than what I read here, but this example looks too surreal to me and I see some minor wrong decisions.

To fight DD I have found that playing a one of veteran explorer maindeck or in sb should be enough. You can recur with genesis or witness. He is still good with cabal therapy.

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Originally Posted by Nonex

I have been reading this thread lately, although I don't play Survival decks (yet). But I have to ask a pair of questions:

- What kind of an opening hand does your opponent have that you play Thoughtseize, see a Tarmogoyf, a Mogg, a Price of Progress and two Bolts and you don't take any of them? What does he/she have in hand and what is finally discarded?

- You mention an own Tarmogoyf to play StP on. Is that Tarmogoyf in your hand to be played instead of the Sakura? If not, what's the point of playing it the following turn just to StP it? At the very least there are instants (Bolts and Price), sorceries (Thoughtseize) and creatures (Mogg and Sakura) in graveyards so it should be 3/4. Why play a Healing Salve for :1::g::w: that makes you discard a card when you could just leave a 3/4 Wall to stop and kill your opponent's Ape and survive?

As I said I don't play Survival (yet) so I have absolutely no idea about how to play a specific archetype or how its matchups are, at least no more than what I read here, but this example looks too surreal to me and I see some minor wrong decisions.

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I have to say that I don't remember exactly but I think that with first turn thoughtseize I removed a price of progress, and yes maybe will be better play tarmo than sakura in second turn, but I prefer playing it when opponent only have 1 or 2 cards in hand, in second turn is better play sakura to accelerate the deed one turn.

From my experience on the opposite side of the match, survival should win against Goyf Sligh. I pulled out a win because one kid ran Overgrown Tomb instead of Bayou. Other than that the match is pretty difficult.

@ playing elder over goyf: WTF? You have Goyf and STP in hand and want to accelerate into Deed to deal with the 2/3? Sounds like a great idea...

I do plan on having 2-3 life gainers post board because of this match though. Although I believe it is in Survival's favor, I wouldn't say it is by much. And you DO NOT want Confidant in this matchup either.