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I'm intending on keeping with nonLED and playing the sphinx/zealot kill again. If you are going to win, win fast before they can gain positive board position. What we can hope for game 1 is to go as deep into our deck as we can as fast as we can and board wisely for games 2 and 3. you can keep the combo in, but we would be more reliant on cephalid coliseum than breakthrough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
So dredge has finished in the top 16 of BoM (A legacy tournament with a whopping 687 people attending!). I'm looking forward to see his list. Until now, no list have been posted.
Do we at least know if its an LED or non-LED list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
Afaik, BoM takes forever to release the lists,..Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
The guy is german, and acording to a german friend of mine, the guy always plays the classical LEDless list with no DR targets, 12 dredgers, 2 DR, and 4 grudge+4claim SB, with few DR targets SB, including Iona and Chosen, but no Sphynx. Something like that, but it's not confirmed that he played this list there.
Besides, he has beaten Merfolks, the impossible mental misstep match, on one of the top8 games. Where's god now? xD
Hello,
I'm the guy who piloted the Dredge-Deck to the 4th place (2nd after swiss) at Bazaar of Moxen. Actually it was a pretty standard LEDless-list. I played against many Mental Missteps, but that wasn't a big problem. Sure, it may be annoying, but it is almost like each other counter. I played the Legacy trial on friday with the same list and went 6-2-0 (12th place out of about 150 players / a friend of mine made the 9th with the same list).
Here are the matchup I've faced:
Trial:
1. Team America 0-2
2. Mono U Merfolk 2-1
3. GW Maverick 2-1
4. Lands 2-1
5. Next Level Thresh Urg 2-1
6. Big Zoo 2-0
7. Mono U Merfolk 2-1
8. Canadian Thresh 1-2
Main event:
1. Countertop 2-0
2. Rb Goblin 2-0
3. Mono U Merfolk 0-2
4. GW Maverick 2-1
5. Team America 2-1
6. ANT 2-0
7. Ur Painter 2-1
8. ANT 2-0
9. Caw Go with Topther Foundry Combo 2-0
Top 16: Mono U Merfolk 2-1 (lost one game due to brainfart)
Top 8: Sneak Show 2-0
Top 4: Ub Reanimator 0-2
So, 16-4-0 overall isn't that bad I think :-).
This is the SB I played:
1 Elesh Horn
1 Realm Razer
1 Iona
1 Hypnotist
4 Claim
4 Grudge
2 Ray
1 Darkblast
Maindeck I played 1 Darkblast and 3 Thug.
How did your main list look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
When did you side-in Elesh Norn and how did she perform?
I noticed that you didn't play Chain of Vapor on your side. Was Nature's Claim good enough that it didn't need Chain of Vapor? Also, why no Leyline of the Void? In an unknown meta (or a huge tournament), I would never remove them from my sideboard, since they're awesome against mirror and graveyard-based decks (you did lose to Reanimator on semi).
I also noticed that all your loses came from blue-based tempo decks (Team America, Canadian Thresh, Merfolk). Did Mental Misstep played a huge role on your loses?
There it is, then. I was almost right xD
Just to make it clear, the standard list is the one with no DR targets, right?
Didn't miss Chosen, I take it? Elesh Norn is better for the spot?
You should write us a report, that would be the best read in a while ^^
Post your Maindeck list dude.. nice job
And can you tell us what did you borad in agianst each of the match-ups please? That would be awesome
Nicely done, congrats on the great finish. I'd be interested to know what you attribute your losses to (bad breaks, mental misstep, brainfart, etc..)
Dude... read the thread. Basic LED-dredge is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Godmode
3x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Goglari Thug
1x Darkblast
4x Putrid Imp
4x Tireless Tribe
4x Narcomoeba
2x Dread Return
4x Careful STudy
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x Tarnished Citadel
Like he said he took the darkblast over the 4th thug.
Yep, this is exactly the German LEDless build, tuned and tested thoroughly and (at least in Germany and by myself) found to be the most optimal build one can run in the current Legacy metagame.
Congratz on the awesome finish and thumbs up for beating MMs.
The recent results from SCG open this weekend is not that cool I think. 7 decks in the Top 8 played MM, and 12 out of Top 16. Damn centralizing, right? I'm curious how that will develop. But having only 4-5 archetypes in a SCG open Top 16 is kind of meh...
The list posted by 1maarten1 is exactly the one I played.
I just sided it in against Goblins once. It hit the board and he gave up, so it was quite okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Actually, I just boarded Nature's Claim just once and then I've lost against Reanimator in the Semifinals. I never really needed it. Neither I needed the Chain ;).Quote:
I noticed that you didn't play Chain of Vapor on your side. Was Nature's Claim good enough that it didn't need Chain of Vapor? Also, why no Leyline of the Void? In an unknown meta (or a huge tournament), I would never remove them from my sideboard, since they're awesome against mirror and graveyard-based decks (you did lose to Reanimator on semi).
If you know how to play your deck, you should likely win the mirror. For such an rare MU, same goes for Reanimator, I don't want to waste SB-space. I wouldn't have won the game against Reanimator even if I had Leyline in play.
The Team America- and Canadian Thresh-players where both pretty good. They knew how to play the hate and they had plenty of them^^. The Merfolk-player just had many fast guys I couldn't handle. If I recall correctly, he misstept one of my outlets, but I don't think it played a huge role. In the Team America- and Canadian Thresh-games I saw Mental Missteps, but they weren't really relevant.Quote:
I also noticed that all your loses came from blue-based tempo decks (Team America, Canadian Thresh, Merfolk). Did Mental Misstep played a huge role on your loses?
No, I didn't. I tried the Chosen a few times before Elesh Norn was released, but I never wasn't impressed by him, so the last times I played the deck, I played without him :). I think Elesh Norn is better on what you want: kill non-blue Tribal/Aggro-decks.Quote:
Didn't miss Chosen, I take it? Elesh Norn is better for the spot?
Maybe I will ;). I finished my german report right now, if I've got time, I'll probably write an english one.Quote:
You should write us a report, that would be the best read in a while ^^
In the games I played, I boarded like that:Quote:
And can you tell us what did you borad in agianst each of the match-ups please? That would be awesome
- Team America: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, (-1 Darkblast); +3 Ancient Grudge, (+1 Ray)
- Merfolk: -2 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough; +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Darkblast
- GW Maverick: -1 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Thug, -1 Breakthrough; +3 Grudge, +1 Darkblast (Hierarch, Mother)
- Lands: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Darkblast, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Ichorid; +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Hypnotist, +1 Realm Razer
- Next Level Thresh Urg: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Thug; +1 Darkblast (Lavamancer), +3 Grudge
- Big Zoo: Like GW Maverick I think
- Canadian Thresh: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return; +3 Ancient Grudge
- Countertop: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return; +3 Ancient Grudge
- Rb Goblin: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid; +1 Elesh Norn, +1 Darkblast, +2 Grudge
- ANT: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Darkblast; +1 Hypnotist, +1 Iona
- Ur Painter: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast, +4 Grudge
- Caw Go with Topther Foundry Combo: -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Thug; +1 Darkblast, +3 Grudge
- Sneak Show: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast; +3 Grudge, +1 Ray
- Ub Reanimator: -1 Tribe, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Dread Return, -1 Darkblast; +3 Nature's Claim, +1 Grudge
I hope I got all these boardings right. I don't recall all of them.
Thank you :). As stated above, I face two good players and many blue men ;).Quote:
Nicely done, congrats on the great finish. I'd be interested to know what you attribute your losses to (bad breaks, mental misstep, brainfart, etc..)
'grats for your finish. Both you and Dredge (as an archetype) deserved that. I'm so happy my favourite deck isn't going to change that much because of a design error. Unluckily, I still fear the "Mental Misstep Menace", so I don't know whether I should play the same exact list I've been doing for ages, or a different one. My main concerns are countermagic and lots of creatures, so I was considering Firestorm. Should I play a list like post #1490, -1 Darkblast, -1 Study/Breakthrough, -1 Citadel, +3 Firestorm? Also, what do you think about Breakthrough? I used to love that card, but against non-storm decks I still won on the back of Careful Study, which not only acts as both discard and gas, it can also be used to search for answers/sculpt the hand, and is a strong spell against Relic of Progenitus (3 cards hitting the grave at once, meaning my opponent can't EOT tap Relic and repeat the process during his turn). I thought: if I'm still able to win g2 against Zoo/Merfolk without Breakthrough and through graveyard hate, why can't I do it g1 with more ease? That's why I was thinking my 4x Breakthrough/3x Study split should become 4x Study/3x Firestorm. This way, I have access to 15 effective discard outlets (4x Cabal Therapy being 16-19, in case of emergency), which almost guarantees me to have 1/2 in my opening. It also opens the chances of having actual creature removal/reach: most times it isn't needed (I never played the Instant, and I also used to despise it), although throwing cards in the bin just because I only had Breakthrough as a "discard outlet" made me sad. Suddenly, a hypotethical hand consisting of double land (better if one of 'em is Coliseum), dredger, random useless cards and Firestorm becomes keepable. With Breakthrough I would've mulled that, unless I knew my opponent's playing a blue deck, me being on the draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
P.S. - Also by playing maindeck Firestorm this deck reaches the 3rd degree of awesomeness, 'cause it has cards of every single color in the game.
P.P.S. - Ancient Grudge counts, too, though only g2/g3.
Brot_ohne_Kruste: Thanks for all the info on the deck. My list has a few differences from yours, I run FKZ over hypnotist but I think I am going to switch that, I run only 1 ancient grudge and cut the slot you have realm razer in for 4 firestorm. I think firestorm is really good in this meta and 5 artifact destruction spells seems like enough to me. I also don't run any darkblasts (main or sb) and run Terastodon in that spot with 4 golgari thug main. Darkblast doesn't kill enough of the creatures I want it to and with 4 firestorm I don't think I need it. I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?
@Digital Devil: I like breakthrough too much to cut it but I do think you should fit firestorm in your list. Breakthrough and firestorm serve different functions, one allows you to accelerate your dredging while the other gets dredgers in the yard (breakthrough is not used primarily for this function but can be used this way for less gain). I just think breakthrough wins the vast majority of games it resolves. Let us know how testing without them goes.
I've written a cute, little report :): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...352#post548352
I don't really like the Firestorms. The Matchups you want to win with this card you are going to win these games most likely without it anyways. At least that's my experience I made.Quote:
I think firestorm is really good in this meta and 5 artifact destruction spells seems like enough to me. I also don't run any darkblasts (main or sb) and run Terastodon in that spot with 4 golgari thug main. Darkblast doesn't kill enough of the creatures I want it to and with 4 firestorm I don't think I need it. I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?
The role of Darkblast is another that Firestorm fills: Firestorm is more an Outlet that kills the creatures of the opponent, but it's just one time. Darkblast is also good at protecting your own creatures from Swords/Paths or protecting your Bridges. It can slow down your opponent and give you an permanent Dredger, but in most situation it's good to generate more tokens and win. E.g. if you attack with 2 Ichorids and 2 Moeba, having a few Bridges in your grave, and he has got one blocker which would die to an Ichorid, you can just blast the blocked Ichorid, and generate tokens. The other Ichorid dies, you are generating tokens again. In the next turn he would be probably dead. And you can respond to the removing Bridge-trigger by killing one guy to generate more tokens.
But as stated above, the best thing is to protect your Ichorids against Swords/Paths. It's such a good card, I just love it :).
Against every Deck that is playing Tabernacle and/or Glacial Chasm. So, most likely Lands :).Quote:
I feel like I'm missing something obvious but what match ups does realm razer come in for? Lands?
@ Artifact-removal-spells in the SB: I would never ever cut the Ancient Grudges. The are just too good. Actually I boarded them in against almost every deck. The Claims weren't used very often because they can't destroy two artifacts with one card. For me 4 Grudes, 4 Claims and 2 Rays in the SB are set in stone :).
@Digital Devil: Yeah, please let us know how the testing is working out.
Plus tech, Realm Razer can enter against High Tide, and is decent against Enchantress.
I really like your play style Brot_Ohne_Kruste, really good! Thanks for posting all the info ^^
Actually I still like Breakthrough, only less than I used to. Though if I want to play Firestorm I have to either remove Breakthrough, or go down to 3x Ichorid, 2x Dread Return and no maindeck target (the latter being more appealing than the former: I mean, most lists aren't playing DR targets anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
That's why I used to hate the card, and why I always thought Darkblast was like Over 9000 times better - I'm just giving it a try to see how it performs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
I love Darkblast, too - it's incredibly strong since it acts as removal, protection, mills for 3, and at worst, it discards itself. Plus, the name is so... bombastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
Same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. - Thanks for your report!!!
Well siding in your ancient grudges was probably what won you a lot of your games but think of how merfolk might have played out with firestorm, after all you did say you got beat by them swarming you. Maybe I am running too few responses to hate but if you run 4 grudge why run 4 claim? You almost never brought in both in the tournament (only against reanimator) and you NEVER brought in 4 of either. The most grudges you ever sided in was 3, sometimes going as few as 2 and the most claims you boarded in was also 3 against the only match up you brought them in at all for. This makes me think that at the very least you could probably drop to 3 Ancient Grudge, 2 Nature's Claim, 2 Ray of revelation or even 3 grudge 3 claim 2 ray. 4 of each just seems unnecessary as proven by your sideboarding strategy. Also terastadon answers all the lands that you are scared of that realm razer would answer (except high tide if you tried to do that) while also being able to answer other random cards like moat, why not just play the giant elephant? Worst case scenario he can blow your own lands to offer you more dudes. Not trying to nit pick your list, I actually like most of it a lot, just looking for some clarification. Thanks again for all the info.
Funny enough, 4 pages ago, in response to chags, I had pointed out the same maindeck of Brot_Ohne_Kruste, and a sideboard that was only 3 cards different.
Now, perhaps Brot_Ohne_Kruste has a different reason for running so much Anti-GY hate, but I continue to find that having as many answers to hate when I want them has been very powerful. I do worry about Leyline (even if some people don't), and you need Claims and Rays in a decent quantity to have a reasonable chance to open a hand with an answer and land. In addition, hate varies with some odd matchups. Beyond GY-hate, there are cards I'm interested in answering which a heavy disenchant sideboard does, plus it gives some pretty powerful plays against Enchantress, Affinity, Stax, MUD, etc. (granted, some of these I never know when or if I'm going to see them)
peace,
4eak
To be honest, I'm not really good in building decks I think. Actually I do at maximum just little testings on the matchups and whatsoever when I start playing new decks. A friend of mine techs out almost all decks I play (at least in the last time). He always says: "Here, it's one of the best decks in the format, you're forced to be played this list, you can't resist".Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
That beeing said, the reasons why you're running so much hate is exactly like "4eak" stated: You want to win against random decks. To get swarmed can always happen, actually you will most likely win these Matchups, why should I put hate against creatures into my board? But you're more likely beaten by graveyardhate AND random decks like Enhantress and Stacks than beeing swarmed. I want to beat random decks with my Sideboard and the rest with skill :D.
€://
Thanks a lot :).Quote:
I really like your play style Brot_Ohne_Kruste, really good! Thanks for posting all the info ^^
I see the what you are saying and could see myself siding in as much hate as you guys but I do like firestorm right now with merfolk really popular and MM really popular. Perhaps testing will prove it is unnecessary but for now I like running slightly less hate answers and being able to use firestorm. Also 4eak I noticed that as well, I believe you two have convinced me to tweak my sb some and put my list more in line with these ones. Thanks for the help.
question:
How is the sideboard impacted by the board-out plan?
From what I've seen of boarding plans people tend to board out breakthroughs for Firestorms, and shave off one-ofs for ancient grudges, but don't usually do both.
one one level this is a noob question, on another I think it's relatively underdiscussed.
The thing is that there are pretty different SBing approaches.
So far I have seen people taking out Breakthroughs to slowroll things in the postboard games, others have been taking out Careful Study instead of Btrhough so they can go broken as soon as they disposed a Relic.
And then Erik has written that he has cut random cards/1ofs/Dread Returns for his SB-cards which I've actually never read before. That's why his SB "guide" looks quite outside from the norm, but apparently it has worked out perfectly, so I guess you are more versatile in view of boarding than I thought before.
I meant the question more like
"is firestorm better when you board out breakthrough for it or when you board out a putrid imp, dread return, careful study for it?"
or
"is ancient grudge better as a replacement for breakthrough or as a replacement for careful study?"
The thought behind this boarding-method is that you are, in most cases, just removing one card of each category:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
- from 12 to 11 Dredgers
- from 12 to 11 Draw-"spells"
- from 6 to 5 Sac.-outlets
- from 12 to 11 Discard-outlets
This method provides you the most flexibility by reducing the chances to have a Discard-outlet and a Dredger in your starting hand just slightly and also keeps the explosiveness of the deck with 11 Draw-"spells". If you're cutting 3-4 cards e.g. from the Draw-"spells" you may have a higher chance to get one Discard-outlet and a Dredger on your starting hand, but you lowered the chance of having gas given by Draw-"spells" significantly, which comes in handy so many situation post-board.
These are the thoughts my team, my friends and me came up with to remain Dredges' strength in consistance and reduce the weaknesses by playing anti-GY-hate. I hope you understand the idea behind this :D.
€://
1. It depends. Boarding with Dredge is harder than with many other decks because you haven't that many bad cards in each matchup. Before I would board out Imps or Studies, I would at least board out 1 Breakthrough and 1 Dread Return. If you're playing against Merfolk, 2 Dread Return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flan R-E
2. I would never ever cut a whole playset cards in the main for SB-cards. You're losing to much consistance which you really need after boarding. I always board like this:
- Aggro- or Control-/Combodeck? -> Aggro: board out one Putrid Imp, Control/Combo: board out one Tribe
- Do you need Dread Return targets for your matchup? -> no: take out one Dread Return; yes: let them in
- Do you play against Merfolk? -> no: if don't really need Dread Return, board out one; yes: board out all Dread Returns
- Do you play against Combo? -> no: leave all Ichorids in; yes: cut one Ichorid (because it is too slow sometimes)
- Against each deck: -> cut one Breakthrough, cut one Thug (Darkblast, if not needed)
There are your 3-4 slots I think :).
You're welcome :).Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
I like your boarding plan a lot. I've been doing similar boardings, mostly because I dislike siding all my draw spells, specially careful study, which is underrated.
Now, I do some different moves:
Against merfolks, I always board Iona in. It's just too auto-win. I wonder if TA has some worth DR target as Iona against merfolks, but if I find nothing, then I'll start boarding DR out against them.
I believe Ichorid to be slow in most of the games against Combo, I'd board 2 or 3, depending on what I got as side. Usually 2, since I usually have 2 auto-win DR targets against them. I'm not testing either Brainstorm or Winds of Change as a sideboard card against combo, so I'm siding out all 3 Ichorids.
Boarding out DR against fish is interesting, are you just worried about them having too many counters? I haven't had too many problems with fish countering DR thanks to cabal therapy. Both Iona and Elesh Norn pretty much finish the game immediately against fish which makes them very tempting to bring in for this match up.
EDIT: Do you just plan on beating them by recurring ichorids and getting zombies? That seems slow especially considering you don't run firestorm, I think fish can sometimes swarm faster then the ichorid plan can.
Going down to less than 2 Ichorids postboardb is a crucial mistake IMO. I have tested it quite a few times and I was never satisfied with that. Boarding out 1 is fine and thats what I do most likeley (especially in the Combo MU's), but going below 2 Ichorids is just awful.
There are plenty of times where I wanted them badly but didnt had the Chance to have them and that turned me far away from that "Tech".
Especially against all decks where you are planning to seal the deal with a (additional) DR-Target; just relying on Moebas and 1st turn discardoutlets can be a big pain, more often than having Ichorids.
PS: Congratz Brot! Thanks for the report and decklist, it sadly seems that you cant rely on the official website... . Allover well done!
Yeah, you're right. You want at least 2 of them to generate many Tokens or just cast the Dread Return fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Thank you :).
The problem of Dread Return is that they have got Cursecatcher. It is really bad, if you flashback Dread Return and all you get is just a lousy 7/7 creature with evasion. Sure, it's a 3 turn clock, they can't play any spells anymore and you may have Ichorids, but now imagine what will happen, if the Dread Return is countered. Yeah, you sacced 3 creatures for nothing. And that's the problem I'm seeing. You can't rely on those cards in a matchup where you get swarmed, even with Iona on blue because of Aether Vial. They just need 2-3 Lords and you're most likely done. That's why I would board out the Dread Returns. With Ichorids and Tokens to block a few guys it worked perfectly for me, even before NPH was released.Quote:
Boarding out DR against fish is interesting, are you just worried about them having too many counters? I haven't had too many problems with fish countering DR thanks to cabal therapy. Both Iona and Elesh Norn pretty much finish the game immediately against fish which makes them very tempting to bring in for this match up.
EDIT: Do you just plan on beating them by recurring ichorids and getting zombies? That seems slow especially considering you don't run firestorm, I think fish can sometimes swarm faster then the ichorid plan can.
Excellent responses Brok, you've been most insightful ^_^
Cheers on the great finish!
I might be doing this wrong, but I've been throwing some stuff together. This needs more testing, but I have so few good testing options where I am :(
Dudes
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
1 Angel of Despair
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Firestorm
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sadistic Hynotist
I've never played a deck that doesn't play Force of Will before... advice would be appreciated!
First off, why the Angel of Despair? if you insist on having a Dread Return target MD , then I would at least consider something like Iona. If it is a metaslot though, it's perfectly fine. Also you might want to consider/test no DR targets main.Quote:
Originally Posted by a-slice-of-cake
In the SB though, there are some things that need to be adressed:
Why the 2 Firestorms, why the 3 Leylines? While Leyline is indeed good against some sorts of combo, anything that isn't just UB can bounce it. I think the hypnotist alone is enough, your choice though.
With the 2 Firestorms I see one major problem: You need to draw it. With that I mean you need to ahve it in your opening hand, because you generally do not want to actually draw cards. Only having 2 is not going to help much imho.
I would just cut the Firestorms and Leylines and put something like Iona, Elesh Norn, Ray of Revelation or the like in it.
Hope I could help.
Edit: Also, -1 DR +1 Breakthrough MD
Edit2: Erik, what happened to Dennis and Julian at BoM?
They both had bad days. Dennis went 1-2-0 drop, Julian 2-4-0 (included 2 byes) drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
@a-slice-of-cake: I think 14 lands are a bit too low. 15 might be the right number. You always want to cast your Discard-Outlets :).
I've been following posts for a while (about 16 months). Never felt that I could contribute (mmmmh :{).
Now I have a question for people that run Dredge;
In a meta where top 8's are soaked in MM's, can we do something with the card that I have liked for our deck for a while (and that has navigated a friend of mine to top 4's); Tolarian winds. The reason for this is;
1. I was told that instant speed spells are better than Sorcery's
2. The order of events; first discard, then draw.
3. As much as 6 cards can be drawn from it.
4. It doesn't cost cmc1.
Disadvantages;
1. It doesn't cantrip
2. It doesn't cost cmc1.
Any opinions?
Tolarian Winds has not seen play in this deck since before the creation of bridge from below- when it still ran zombie infestation.
I've been thinking the same thing, but I feel we would have to up the land count, unfortunately.
I really don't think that it is needed to include sometimes sub-par draw spell just because of Mental Misstep.
Erik's results at BoM V have backed that up. Just play around it?
Facing 4x Misstep is not that much different from facing a combination of Daze/Spell Pierce. You could live with that, so what's so different with MM?
Is there any reason the list from BoM is running Hypnotist? What match ups is it actually good against? It seems like it might be a little slow for combo and perform the same role as Iona or FKZ.
Yep, it performs the same role as Iona, but you can't DR 2 Ionas [that happens in some circumstances], so a 2nd DR-target is better. FKZ is also more dependant on Bridges than Hypnotist is. Also in the rare case that BOTH DR-targets [Iona & Hypnotist] resolve, the combo player will never be able to find back in the game.
It is actually VERY different. Neither daze nor spell peirce can threaten dredge on the play, and spell peirce cannot counter imp/tribe at all. Daze Can be played around with simply a 2nd land, Misstep cant really be "played around" (except with therapy). You just need Another discard outlet, If you dont see how this is fundamentally different, then that is pretty silly, and i feel like you are being intentionally obtuse. You have to assume that your blue opponents will now have a a counter for your t1 outlet 60+% of the time instead of 40, that is a fundamental shift in the matchup: and the same logic for why Goblins or Lands are weaker applies to non-led dredge. The Merfolk Matchup is unquestionably worse. The better question to ask is: Has the presence of MM led to a shift in the speed of the format where mono-blue or near-mono-blue counterspell decks are a significant portion of the meta, and if so, does the presence of these new very good matchups make up for the fact that the matchups against Merfolk and NO Variants are worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol