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There have been plenty of times when I say to myself "I can play around (x) free counterspells, but then my opponent has (x) + a Misstep. Once you get to the point where most of the blue decks play 12 free counterspells, it becomes difficult to correctly guess how many they're holding, and they usually have one more than you think, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Yeah, it's called combo is supposed to lose most of the time to counterspell heavy decks with a clock. If it didn't then what could possibly beat it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Other combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Or combo decks with counterspells. You know a format is dead when fast combo decks with a heavy counter suite are the deck to beat. (Necro Winter)
When the control player has to think about his plays I'll even agree with on that one. But just tapping out every turn doing your thing while having ALL of your counterspells active is just plain stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Given a good hand I bet a freaking monkey could beat Storm now with a Merfolk deck.
-And what exactly is wrong with paper beating rock?Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
So to recap you are mad that blue decks heavy on counterspells have a really good matchup vs. combo, and you think they should ban Mental Misstep so that you will have better game vs. Fish decks with your combo deck (even though fish decks are the best type of decks to play to beat combo) and then every deck without blue will go back to being a 70%+ matchup for anything with High Tides, Rite of Flames, or Dark Rits. Yeah I bet you would like that. Too bad combo players have absolutely no room to talk about unfair matchups since they have had years upon years of some of the most lopsided matchups in history.Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
I can't frickin wait for the announcement, my anxiety is killing me. I have a project blue deck on the line and I wish they don't ban Brainstorm!
Looking at the most recent top 8 decks I see more Mental Missteps than Stoneforges, if that's any indication.
EDIT
I feel guilty so QFT..Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
- I can see SFM, NO, or SnT getting banned before MMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
Regardless, if MMS gets banned, CounterTop, Dredge, Goblins, and Storm decks will return.
Counter-top was dead before the Misstep ban. Dredge is already a DTB. Goblins and Storm will return in strength, to be sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
-People want MMS banned so they can play their 1-drops.
-They get their wish and then spend the next x months getting their 1-drops countered by Counterbalance.
-???
-Profit!
Disagree. GSZ weakened it at one point, for sure, but there were a lot more builds scaling up their mana curve in the last months before Misstep was printed. I think if MMS had never been printed, Counterbalance would have changed enough to be just as obnoxious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Counter-Top was losing popularity due to Merfolk being popular. MMS just sealed the deal. Dredge is not a DTB atm due to MMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Blade Control and No Rug might go away. Team America as well. Looks like a meta shift and no net gain or loss to me.
Edit:
- No Rug
- Bladecontrol
- Team America
(maybe) - Hivemind
+ Goblins
+ CounterTop
+ Storm
+ Dredge
Frankly, I don't want to see CounterTop or Storm return.
Does anyone know at which exact time will the announcement take place?
I apologize is someone already posed this question before.
Announcement is for weaks, someone @ salvation rumor mill might find the post before it goes up, as happened to SotFQuote:
Originally Posted by tangram
I hope not. Legacy can stay the same with or without MM but not the other way around without 2 or 3 of those cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Midnight, PST.Quote:
Originally Posted by tangram
Legacy will not stay the same if MMS gets banned. Anyways, I feel MMS is more like Tarmogoyf rather than SotF:Quote:
Originally Posted by death
- It's not a tutor.
- It's not an enabler for a card (SotF ---> Vengevine).
- It doesn't force decks to run their own to fight it. (Argue that however you want)
My prediction:
Legacy:
Earthcraft is unbanned
Mystical Tutor is unbanned
Thats right, MT unbanned. You know what else. No Land Tax again (Though I would really really love to see this leave the list).
Also, Mental Misstep will not be banned. Why you ask, look up the history of this thread back in 2009. There's that vanilla creature that was the talk of the format. Personally, I think Mental Misstep reduced the playability of a lot of decks, kinda like how Goyf reduced the playability of a lot of great creatures pre-Futuresight but it wasn't as broken as Survival that despite all hate, was still putting up great numbers. To be honest, I hate Mental Misstep but I'd rather have new cards shifting the format than having a stale eternal format.
Two years from now, we'll be adapted to a format with Mental Misstep just like how we've adapted to Goyf. Hell, Mental Misstep might even suck two-three years from now, like how CounterTop sucked now.
I should have named this as an exception, because it's absolutely true. Misstep against Storm combo can absolutely be a game-winning play. It is a must-answer for those decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
My post was a response to the idea that every deck has to run Misstep in order to answer Misstep, which, generally speaking, is ridiculous.
I do recognize how crippling Misstep has been for Storm's metagame presence. Sorry for the oversight.
Agree with Mental Misstep.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
However, why do you want Mystical Tutor unbanned? It might not warp the format, but it would sure strengthen some blue decks by miles, pushing other colours out of presence.
My hope:
Brainstorm is banned.
Earthcraft is no longer banned.
If it ends up like this, I would buy Booster boxes for the first time in my life to thank WotC. Well, other cards can be unbanned, but one by one is fine for me.
Edit: I am a combo player and have been spoiled by Brainstorm. However, just for the aesthetic respect, I would love to see the 5 colours more balanced.
Vengevine is banned.
Survival of the Fittest is no longer banned.
I mean, going the way of Gush isn't that bad as long as they don't catch or surpass it. And I think they can't by now unless they try extremely hard. Too bad it won't happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
My wish, Brainstorm Banned. mindtwist unbanned.
My Wish?
Vise, Earthcraft, Mindtwist, Tax, Goblin Recruiter, Dragon unbanned. Add a rule that infinite loops with no clear end are a game loss for the player that started them.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
I'll go a bit farther and ask for Show and Tell to be banned as well. The card can only get more and more degenerate with bigger and more powerful creatures, artifacts and enchantments that inevitably will come along in the future.
Cheating Hive Mind, Emrakul or Progenitus into play for three mana is lame and unfun.
Mental Mistep doesn't bother me for some reason. There are just so many other cards to play around it with. Blue is annoyingly dominant because of other cards.
-Frog
Swinging with creatures, casting Tendrils on turn 2 for lethal, playing Countertop going to time to 25 turns is also unfun. Also, playing an eternal format that is similar to Standard is also unfun.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogczar
You know what I like about legacy more than any other format? You can make your decks and be reasonable sure that they will behave the same way each game. You play with the best mana fixing and the best cantrips, as well as the cheapest threats, maximizing the chance that you will actually be able to play magic. This is true of this format more-so than any other.
So combo is dying in Legacy and you people want Natural Order & Show and Tell banned? Two of the last two combo decks left in Legacy at the moment.
Despite what you guys think, mental misstep needs to be answered while playing against it. I mean what deck doesn't play cards with 1cc, besides show and tell? Don't say stax/stompy, they are dead right now. So in order to cast spells you must work around MM. You can play your own set like goblins or blue zoo, that is how those decks answer MM. You could play decks that care too much about it, junk or SnT. You could alter your deck by playing no 1cc cards or a stupid amount of them, see new dredge and fast zoo respectively. Or you could do nothing and pretend wizards never printed mental misstep. If you do the last option I assure you your deck won't be competitive. So you see this card is format warping and must be answered.
The fact that the best answer to MM is MM, is very sad.
Yes I did compare SotF to mental misstep. Not because of power though. Because of the portion of the metagame each card took up. When a card takes up as much of the metagame as the aforementioned cards then as a player you must be ready to deal with it.
Also, I think some people might be mad about monkeys playing merfolk and beating storm because Mtg is a game of skill. Not only a game of paper, rock, scissors. The fact that monkeys are winning against skilled players says something about the state of Legacy since MM has come to be.
You seem to be missing the distinction between a threat and an answer. One of them requires answering, and the other, typically, does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
See, the problem with this is you want combo vs merfolk to be a game of skill, yet combo vs aggro should be auto-win? So basically you get to automatically win vs 1/3 the field... and then have a competitive shot vs everything else? I don't find this to be reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Earthcraft isn't unbanned yet but why is Squirrel Nest already sold out at Troll and Toad/Starcitygames?
I love how people throw out the argument that "Mental Misstep warps the format" like it actually means something. Swords warps the format, how many times have you been building a deck and tweaked some cards because you thought about Swords to Plowshares, I know this has happened to me many times. Aether Vial warps the format, and it will probably return to warping the format even harder if Misstep gets banned. Nacatl warps the format, anyone who played before he came out knows this. Tarmogoyf warps the format, how many creatures are/were unplayable because either Tarmogoyf was a better card in the slot or because they can't swing through Goyf when he's opposite you. Krosan Grip was a format warping card, Counterbalance was a warping card, Top, Force of Will, Path to Exile, Emrakul, KnightotR, Karakas, NO+Progen, Entomb, Iona... Do you get the point? Every good card is format warping, everytime you sit down to make a deck and think, "What if they play XXX card that is powerful and played in Legacy?" Then you sit down and change your deck because of it, you aren't the only one so it's a format warping card.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Pre-Misstep Vial and Nacatl were an absolute nightmare for control, every time someone wanted to play control and didn't because of those two cards they warped the format. Control was practically unplayable for years and now it finally gets it's well deserved moment in the sun and everybody wants to rewind to 4 months ago because their pet deck is less powerful than it was back then. Zoo still top 8's, even kitty zoo busted out with one drops and no Missteps. Dredge still top 8's, and quite regularly all of a sudden, even more so than it did before.
As people start to figure out that UW Mystic isn't the end all answer to Legacy and start playing decks that have a favorable matchup vs. it slowly it will become a worse and worse option and other decks will rise up that are good against those decks. That's the way Legacy works. Trust me, I've been playing since before the banned list separated and every couple of years a card or deck comes along and has a good run, and people start to talk banning and saying that it is overpowered and warps the format. Then other decks and cards come along and the format shifts, and before you know it last year's DTB is now tier 2.5 and you roll your eyes when you see people playing it. We have been living with Misstep for all of 4 months now and all of maybe 12 new cards came out in M12, none of which make the Legacy cut. Give it a little time and a couple sets and the format will balance itself out. Also you have to remember that Standard was just overrun by UW Mystic not 3 months ago, so a lot of people that had success with it in Standard feel comfortable porting it over to Legacy leading to even higher field saturation.
Storm was a good metagame choice from time to time because it had a stupid high win % vs. decks without Force of Will. Many of said decks had 0-4 real ways of answering Storm combo and almost none of those answers were under 2cmc and only one was free (Mindbreak Trap, but still a terrible card and your chances of winning 2 games in a row post SB with Traps as your only interaction are pretty low). Mental Misstep forces Storm to play fair. First off they have to assume every deck is running it post board, because it is hands down the best anti-combo SB card in existence. Second they have to assume you have one or two in hand before they go off or they could get rocked. Third, it makes the Blue decks that were already good against Storm even better. I mean even without Misstep Aggro Control with blue is Storm's worst enemy. Previously that may have been a fair trade since you would still be almost assured to beat decks like Zoo and Goblins, but now that you can't just write off a Bye every time your opponent drops a turn 1 Lackey or Nacatl it makes matters even worse. Really Storm is still favorable vs. most non-blue decks, it's just not quite as lopsided as it used to be where unless your deck betrayed you or you played like a fool you weren't going to lose 2/3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
Honestly, I predict that nothing will change in Legacy. There MIGHT be something unbanned from the ban list, but I don't think Mental Misstep is powerful enough to have it banned. I also don't think Brainstorm is powerful enough to be banned. I would guess that Natural Order, Stoneforge Mystic, or Show and Tell would be banned solely on their attributes (tutors, powerful enablers), but I feel that those are kept in check enough with the card pool that they won't get banned either.
The solution to the meta is to run more mid-range decks. You don't nee MMS to beat these blue decks. They are powerful, but not as game breaking as Vengevial was a few months back. Until those decks start to become a large enough part of the Top 8 on average, we won't see any major bannings.
No problem. As I'm primarily a storm player, Misstep's power is more apparent to me than most I think, as when cast at an inopportune time I just lose. Not to mention it gives control functionally eight Force of Wills against protection spells like Orim's Chant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
If Brainstorm indeed were banned, Blue decks would be raped by discard spells. No need to unband Mindtwist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
You can't ban Brainstorm this is an eternal format and if you go around banning all the cards that make up the pillars of the format you end up with... Modern. By the way no one want's to play the tier-2-combo-fest-quasi-extended format. The problem is everyone just netdecks and it takes a banning or a printing to shake up the format nowadays. Back in the day players would innovate and actually solve problems rather than complaining enough until WotC's hand is forced to make a banning.
Stop bitching and start brewing!
So you are saying, keep brainstorm because of discard spells, but keep mind twist banned so that brainstorm can still rule the discard battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oibade
Of course I have a vague idea. The ultimate goal of the banned list is to make the format more fun, and that's an incredibly difficult if not impossible thing to give a hard and accurate definition to.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I do not think anything needs to be banned.
I would not complain if Brainstorm or Mental Misstep were banned. Or Tarmogoyf but that's not really here nor there.
I would not complain if Goblin Recruiter, Earthcraft, Land Tax, Worldgorger Dragon, Mind Twist, or Black Vise were to come off the list. Or Sharazhad because lol.
I would be annoyed at any changes to the banned list except the above.
One of these cards is already banned in a format, one is restricted. They seem reasonable enough targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I think the only card, if any, that will be banned is Show and Tell. That being said, I'm only giving it a 15% chance of actually being banned. Wizards will not ban Mental Misstep because they don't like admitting to mistakes. I believe someone already used the example of them banning Survival when Vengevine was clearly the problem.
I'm not even trolling - but I want to see Frantic Search come off the list just so I can flash it back with Snapcaster.
I hope Misstep stays legal, cause it limits how much garbage I have to play against.
And I'd like Mind's desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scordata
I don't have a problem with aggro gaining ways to interact with storm. I dislike storm losing ways to play around clique + 3 counterspells. My opponents used to have to debate whether or not forcing my dark ritual is correct. Now they just misstep it without a second thought. I'm not saying that Storm should always have a way around counters, I'd just rather have it be more skill intensive than "lol your spell costs one so I might as well trololol.". I'd rather not lose to players who do not understand my deck.
I wasn't implying they COULDN'T be banned. They very well may. However, within the context of this format, I don't think they are powerful enough to warrant a ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I also wouldn't mind seeing some stuff come off the banned list. Now would be a great time for those cards you mentioned to come off. Goblins needs the boost anyways.