-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3hdh
.
Gratz on the finish.
Couple of Qs:
1.)Were you happy with MD Cliques.?
2.) Did you win more than 1 round via combat dmg outside of EtA?
3.) Did Baneslayer win you more than 1 game?
4.) How was Shackles?
5.) 3 Plains and 1 Karkas seems overkill - would you stick with this for the time being (despite merely three WW spells)? --> I would replace one with Arid Mesa or Heath for sure.
Cheers
Jaschar
PS: here's my current MD for reference:
4 Sensei's Top
4 Brainstorm
4 STP
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Detention Sphere
4 Jace
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
2 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 flex slot
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Gratz on the finish.
Couple of Qs:
1.)Where you happy with MD Cliques.?
2.) Did you win more than 1 round via combat dmg outside of EtA?
3.) Did Baneslayer win you more than 1 game?
4.) How was Shackles?
5.) 3 Plains and 1 Karkas seems overkill - would you stick with this for the time being (despite merely three WW spells)? --> I would replace one with Arid Mesa or Heath for sure.
Cheers
Jaschar
Thank you
1) I was very happy with the Cliques, they killed a number of opponents and more importantly a number of opposing planeswalkers.
2) Yes, out of 10 rounds I won almost evenly between non EtA combat, EtA, and Jace Ultimate
3) Baneslayer won me two games against BUG where Deathrite would have been able to race me otherwise
4) Shackles was key vs one of the 4 color decks and provided insurance against the U/G Infect. In testing it helped me close out games against SFM decks faster, but over the GP I only had it in play three times I could remember.
5) I could see replacing a plains with a fetchland or possibly a second Mystic Gate, one of my opponents told me he didnt Thoughtseize on turn 1 since I led plains top, when I played Gate into Counterbalance it ended up locking him out.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
t3hdh
Round 13 ANT 2-0 (Lived the dream and stopped an infernal tutor/LED by bouncing a land back to my opponents hand with Venser)
lol, that's great. The other day, I lived it up against High Tide. He Pact of Negations my Clique during his EoT, I untap and drop Venser bouncing his 5th land -> GG.
Venser is pretty awesome. Though, I'm still trying to decide if running two Karakas is too greedy or just right...
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Has anyone figured out a good answer if liliana of the veil hits the board? I was thinking psychic purge but it makes them lose life and oring/dsphere just gets abrupt decayed.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Venser is pretty good.
-Matt
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
O yea, if they +1 with no cards in hand you can make them discard it. I was also thinking of celestial purge.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think most of the flash creatures are good answers to Lilliana if she resolves, the +1 inst crippling if you have top in play either, and you should be able to find either an Entreat or flash creatures to pressure her before she ultimates.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy I Don't Know
O yea, if they +1 with no cards in hand you can make them discard it.
Haha, that's pretty good. I was thinking Venser was pretty good against her in general... Bounce now, counter later, etc... but bouncing in response to the +1 is hilarious.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
bouncing in response to the +1 is hilarious.
vensering like a boss. :cool:
-
Despite Abrupt Decay I fail to see Vensers superiority over Detention Sphere though.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Could i ask some advice with regards to sideboarding?
Just as a guide, what would you board in against the following matchups, and what are the key spells that i need to prevent them from resolving?
1) Stoneblade / Esperblade
2) BUG Control (with Jace & Liliana)
3) High Tide (w Candles)
And as a guideline, how often do you side out Force? I seem to side out at least a couple quite frequently, and im not sure if its the right choice.
Any advice will be most appreciated!
Thanks!
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Guy I Don't Know
Has anyone figured out a good answer if liliana of the veil hits the board? I was thinking psychic purge but it makes them lose life and oring/dsphere just gets abrupt decayed.
If you want an incredibly narrow card that when you discard it helps you kill Liliana, you are looking for Guerrilla Tactics.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KZhang
Could i ask some advice with regards to sideboarding?
Just as a guide, what would you board in against the following matchups, and what are the key spells that i need to prevent them from resolving?
1) Stoneblade / Esperblade
2) BUG Control (with Jace & Liliana)
3) High Tide (w Candles)
And as a guideline, how often do you side out Force? I seem to side out at least a couple quite frequently, and im not sure if its the right choice.
Any advice will be most appreciated!
Thanks!
The answer obviously depends on the SB you prefer. Some guys go with an E. Tutor toolbox, others tune it to a very particular meta.
Of course it would help if you stated whether you run a straight UW list or an additional black or red splash.
If the three decks above are a big chunk of your meta I would definitely recommend the latter and go with a SB along the lines of:
3 REB
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict (at least 1 in the MD)
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant (good against BUG & Blade)
2 Pithing Needle (super strong against all three decks: Candles, Walkers, Deed, Shaman, equipment..)
1 Path to Exile
3 V. Clique (I actually prefer to not run them in the MD, however VS all three of the given MUs they would be a neat MD addition) a possible replacement would be 1 Fluster Storm, 1 Misdirection, 1 Venser / Jace #4
Let me know if that SB would work for you, so I can discuss it in further detail.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Is REB really that good against Stoneblade or BUG? With the exception of Jace, none of the important cards seem vulnerable to it.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
Is REB really that good against Stoneblade or BUG? With the exception of Jace, none of the important cards seem vulnerable to it.
REB hits:
Jace
Ancentral Visions
Cantrips
FOW
and so on.
Most of my friends playing BUG are going the Shardless Agent rout, and it hits him too if necessary, but flipping a visions off of the cascade is more dangerous, and REB is great for this. Not to mention it also hits it off of the suspend trigger as well, something Spell Peirce can't do.
I'd say REB is very important for BUG match-ups.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
More proof that Misdirection is good?
I am not sure I care all that much about REBing their counters or cantrips.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
More proof that Misdirection is good?
I am not sure I care all that much about REBing their counters or cantrips.
Then add counterbalance, Vendilion, Snapcaster and Delver to the list.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
I am not sure I care all that much about REBing their counters or cantrips.
Winning counter wars over Jaces is a frequent show down scenario in several MUs, with REBs providing an obvious edge. Clique is a major threat too, which gets handled by REB just as neatly plus countering an opposing BS combined with an available fetch land might not look super powerful at first glance, but can be game breaking nevertheless. Being easy to flashback via SCM is just the icing on the cake.
That being said I'm currently rolling with a straight UW version, since 8 basic lands just feels very right with a deck that desperately seeks to have 6 lands available on your 7th turn. REB is the only card that constantly tempts me re-splash, though.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KZhang
Could i ask some advice with regards to sideboarding?
Just as a guide, what would you board in against the following matchups, and what are the key spells that i need to prevent them from resolving?
1) Stoneblade / Esperblade
2) BUG Control (with Jace & Liliana)
3) High Tide (w Candles)
1) against Esper, Rest in Peace and Surgical Extraction are the best. Just reducing opponent's chance of flashback and/or Surgical Extract opponent's FoW, almost crippling play.
2) Very difficult match-up from Miracle point of view. I would argue Divert/Misdirection would be great, in conjunction of Rest in Peace. D/M are great to trade against Hymn/Thoughtseize early. Say they try to AD your Rest in Peace, you can D/M into their Deathrite or Goyf.
3) Flusterstorm. If you Flusterstorm HighTide's first Turnabout/Timespiral, it's almost gg unless they have candle in play.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi all,
I didn't exactly play Miracles at GP Denver, but here's my report if anybody is interested: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...W-RIP-Miracles
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hey again everyone!
I didn't play in locals this week, but I lent my Miracles list to a friend and he managed to clean up pretty well. If you want to see the specific list, it is here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post692436.
I have added the Karakas to the list in place of a Plains. Otherwise it is the same. He ended 2nd overall, drawing against Esperblade (1-1-1), beating monoblack zombies (2-1), beating burn (2-1) and also beating Maverick (2-1). The esperblade player edged him out of first place on tiebreakers. At any rate I can't speak to his play or any specifics from the games; however, after talking to him a bit about his games, I might try out a few Sulfur Elementals in the board to help with Maverick and decks that run Lingering Souls. It seems my meta now has two consistent Maverick players and at least one esperblade player. If you look at my list I am also running a Batterskull in my board, I think I will upgrade that to a Baneslayer. I have also been considering doing a Batterskull/Baneslayer 1:1 split for match ups where your really want to gain life. Thoughts on these sideboard considerations would be appreciated! Thanks for reading.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Cool dude! I like your cat's name!
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
The answer obviously depends on the SB you prefer. Some guys go with an E. Tutor toolbox, others tune it to a very particular meta.
Of course it would help if you stated whether you run a straight UW list or an additional black or red splash.
If the three decks above are a big chunk of your meta I would definitely recommend the latter and go with a SB along the lines of:
3 REB
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict (at least 1 in the MD)
1 Elspeth, Knight's Errant (good against BUG & Blade)
2 Pithing Needle (super strong against all three decks: Candles, Walkers, Deed, Shaman, equipment..)
1 Path to Exile
3 V. Clique (I actually prefer to not run them in the MD, however VS all three of the given MUs they would be a neat MD addition) a possible replacement would be 1 Fluster Storm, 1 Misdirection, 1 Venser / Jace #4
Let me know if that SB would work for you, so I can discuss it in further detail.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm playing just UW. Heres my list for reference
4 x Sensei Divining Top
3 x Counterbalance
3 x Terminus
2 x Entreat the Angels
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
2 x Counterspell
2 x Spell Pierce
4 x Swords to Plowshare
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Detention Sphere
4 x Flooded Strands
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Tundra
5 x Island
2 x Plains
1 x Karakas
3 x Mishra's Factory
SB
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Spell Pierce
1 x Path to Exile
1 x Counterspell
2 x Disenchant
2 x Rest in Peace
2 x Meddling Mage
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Supreme Verdict
2 x Baneslayer Angel
1 x Terminus
i'm a little hesitant to run REBs because of wastelands. while i can possibly fetch out a mountain, but it makes the UU or WW casting costs a little too inconsistent for my liking.
I can't decide if the factories are really good. on one hand they have colour screwed me before, on another, they have been wonderful against opposing liliana's and jace. Might cut a Tundra for a Mystic Gate.
My results with the deck hasnt been too stellar. Most going 2-2 in local circuits. Trying to find ways to improve my play as well.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Water_Wizard
Cool dude! I like your cat's name!
This just made my signature!
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sturtzilla
This just made my signature!
That's a first for me! Thanks man!
-
GP Denver
I stuck with Miracles for the GP.
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/oarsman/gp-denver-25th/
We have not got the scroll down issue fixed yet, but you will find the top of the article by scrolling down an inch.
-
Re: GP Denver
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
What is your verdict on your SB choices? To be specific, do you find Meddling Mage useful? I imagine you have MM for BUG, does it work? How about Misdirection, is 4-Misdirection the solution against BUG?
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I wouldn't say that I have a solution yet. My plan going in was to use Meddling Mage and Misdirection to protect Counterbalance. In order to make room I was boarding out Terminus, since that would kill Mage anyway. I was going to lean heavily on RIP to help contain their Tarmgoyfs and Deathrite Shamans. This has worked decently in practice. It is still not a good matchup, but it might be good enough. One change I am definitely making is the Relic into a third RIP. I would rather have a Relic to mix in against RUG, but I am beating them so consistently that it probably doesn't even matter.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I've been jamming more or less a pure miracles list for a while. Aside from playing legacy every Wednesday, I haven't followed magic at all. What I have noticed is that the BUG decks, especially the Shardless Agent version, completely dominates UW Blade. Their matchup against Miracles isn't nearly as good, but both BUG archetypes are favored.
That said, the scariest thing about their decks isn't the goyfs or the shamans, it's the boatload of planeswalkers they run. Liliana, Jace, and often Garruk is quite a beating. I have not done any real testing, so this is conjecture, but when I was trying to think of a car that was good against these threats AND negated the impact of an early, unanswered goyf, I could only come up with one thing: Lingering Souls. Take that for what it's worth, but I've been toying with the idea of jamming Lingering Souls is a CounterTop shell for a while now. I may have to cut my Vendilion Cliques to make it happen, further complicating the love/hate relationship I have with that card.
On REB:
I agree with Anusien that REB is not as good here as it is against other blue decks. I believe this is because this matchup plays more like beatdown vs. control than control vs. control. That said, it's probably in your sideboard already for the stoneblade and miracles matchups. I usuallly bring it in, but I'm not married to the idea, and I always leave it out if they're jamming Wasteland or Stifle.
On Rest In Piece:
This card seems fine against them. However, I'd like to point out that taking out Counterbalances and brining in RiP is only going to keep their Abrupt Decays awesome. You either want to remove all of their good targets, or you want to saturate their deck so they won't be able to find enough Abrupt Decays.
Finally, what configuration are you guys using going into games two and three with regards to Swords to Plowshares and Terminus? I'm not sure if I want to just leave in the full eight, or remove some, or what.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Of course, you have to wonder if Lingering Souls actually does anything without a sword to equip.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
I wouldn't say that I have a solution yet. My plan going in was to use Meddling Mage and Misdirection to protect Counterbalance. In order to make room I was boarding out Terminus, since that would kill Mage anyway. I was going to lean heavily on RIP to help contain their Tarmgoyfs and Deathrite Shamans. This has worked decently in practice. It is still not a good matchup, but it might be good enough. One change I am definitely making is the Relic into a third RIP. I would rather have a Relic to mix in against RUG, but I am beating them so consistently that it probably doesn't even matter.
Why are we so fond of keeping Counterbalance in against BUG decks? I mean, if they want to, they will most likely get rid of it with targeted discard in the early game anyway, and if we get it later, it doesn't affect the board situation much, plus they have lots of ways of dealing with it, be it just playing decay or trying to resolve Liliana or Jace, which Counterbalance can't handle reliably, not even with Top in play.
I was thinking of going more in the direction Einherjer posted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post694520. Blanking Decay completely, apart from Snapcaster Mage and maybe Vendilion Clique (which are not good targets for AD) is the way to go for me.
Not with stifles (I really don't think they are good in a control deck), but with a couple of bolts, 4 snapcasters to take advantage of all the spot removal spells, CB in the board and less sweepers. I mean, people have adapted to Terminus anyway, and apart from random aggro decks, compenent players don't overextend into Terminus anymore. It is, more often than not, not much better than a simple 2-1. Bolt on the other hand does take care of Deathrite, Bob, Delver and everything Maverick plays in the early rounds, on top of killing planeswalkers.
It was quite good in testing so far, with one issue being the mana base. Since we need red early when casting a bolt, but also need u and w obviously, the mana base is not that solid any more. Some awkward situations did come up for me, despite playing 23 lands with only one of them being colorless.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Snapcaster is at its worst against BUG because of all their Deathrite Shamans.
You want to stretch to the long game against the BUG decks. The proportional value of their discard spells versus your counters goes up as players topdeck more.
I don't see why we are so scared of them Abrupt Decaying our Counterbalance. I mean, they can, but who cares? In the meantime they're not casting other spells, it probably prevents them from deploying and protecting Planeswalkers. I never sideboarded out Counterbalance against Krosan Grip.
-
Re: GP Denver
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
Joe,
Thanks! I don't read many tournament reports anymore, but I find yours useful, both for your knowledge of this deck and for your knowledge of the Legacy format and tournament scene in general.
Congrats on your finish! Given the strength of your opponents (two of them made the top 16) and another two 'pros', I think that you did very well!
Dave
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
I don't see why we are so scared of them Abrupt Decaying our Counterbalance. I mean, they can, but who cares? In the meantime they're not casting other spells, it probably prevents them from deploying and protecting Planeswalkers. I never sideboarded out Counterbalance against Krosan Grip.
This. Siding in Mage to name Decay against a Tarmogoyf deck seems mopey.
Regarding Lingering Souls: I've been playing 1-2 in my list and played 2 in my GP list. My deck was sweet, but I was pretty rusty in terms of play, I lost one match where I made a too conservative play and it cost me, and another where I made a greedy play and I lost, and a third where I made a flat-out misplay. Lack of quality playtesting definitely showed in day two of the event, but I can definitely see improvement.
About the list: Baneslayer was an addition I tried over Timely sideboard. I didn't really get to test it, but it seemed better against Bug in theory. It won me two matches, once against Zombies, and another against Canadian when he had Sulfur Elemental in play and a 5/6 Goyf. 6/4 first strike ya. Rest in Peace probably should have been Relics, which I prefer against Deathrite decks, as Dredge and Reanimator weren't common at the mid to top tables. At a local event or an SCG, I'd probably still play Rest in Peace over some amount of Relics. I probably also want to squeeze in another Jace in the main to fight against the mirror and midrange decks.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
Snapcaster is at its worst against BUG because of all their Deathrite Shamans.
I disagree. It might be at its worst if your only out to a DS turn 1-3 are your 4 STP. If you have 7 one mana removal spells and 4 Snapcasters which are active T3, it's not a big problem. As odd as it may sounds, I think part of the solution to Deathrite Shaman is more Snapcasters, not less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
You want to stretch to the long game against the BUG decks. The proportional value of their discard spells versus your counters goes up as players topdeck more.
Sure, that's why we have the edge in the long game. Make sure you get there by having enough spot removal in the early game. Just sayin', before playing 3 Terminus, 1 Supreme Verdict, 1 Detention Sphere, I'd rather have more spot removal and enough ways to rebuy them these days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
I don't see why we are so scared of them Abrupt Decaying our Counterbalance. I mean, they can, but who cares? In the meantime they're not casting other spells, it probably prevents them from deploying and protecting Planeswalkers. I never sideboarded out Counterbalance against Krosan Grip.
Also disagree. You would sideboard out CB against decks where CB is not particularly good in the first place, even more so if they bring in removal for it (read: Maverick). I'd rather have my opponent have dead decays and grips in their hands than to offer them juicy targets to go "EOT decay your balance, next turn land a threat while I'm still tapped because I played said balance."
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thanks Dave, I appreciate that. I don't read nearly as many tournament reports as I used to either. Since we are about to have a lull in big events here in southern california, I am going be writing more articles that are not based on a particular event. It is certainly going to be different, since I won't be able to just throw down more match details when I run out of things to say. That's for later though, this week I have SCG San Diego.
I am sticking to my guns, but I think I am going to drop down to one snapcaster mage. Rest in Peace comes in a lot, and the 2/1 body isn't worth a ton on its own. I am thinking of replacing it with a maindeck misdirection. Meddling Mage might be on the way out also, to be replaced by something else that can help out against combo decks, perhaps the fourth Force.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Any opinions on Greater Auramancy (instead of, say, a set of Misdirection), especially with RiP/Helm?
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matunos
Any opinions on
Greater Auramancy (instead of, say, a set of Misdirection), especially with RiP/Helm?
Looks pretty lame to me, since it does nothing on its own. Those 75 slots are way too valuable for even considering such cards.
I see where you're coming from though - it does fulfill a similar role as Spellskite in PainterStone decks. However the reason Spellskite sees play is that it can buy some time to set up the combo by being a decent blocker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Malakai
On REB:
[...] I usuallly bring it in, but I'm not married to the idea, and I always leave it out if they're jamming Wasteland or Stifle.
That's funny because countering a Stifle to get that crucial land off your fetch or protecting the Miracle trigger can be pretty nice.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TkDodo
Why are we so fond of keeping Counterbalance in against BUG decks? I mean, if they want to, they will most likely get rid of it with targeted discard in the early game anyway, and if we get it later, it doesn't affect the board situation much, plus they have lots of ways of dealing with it, be it just playing decay or trying to resolve Liliana or Jace, which Counterbalance can't handle reliably, not even with Top in play.
There's this thing called Ancestral Vision. CB to flip for 0 is the best way to prevent BUG Agent from running away with the 3 cards he draws. It's not about board situation, pure Card Advantage or other efficient spells from Cascade is just too ridiculous.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
I wouldn't say that I have a solution yet. My plan going in was to use Meddling Mage and Misdirection to protect Counterbalance. In order to make room I was boarding out Terminus, since that would kill Mage anyway. I was going to lean heavily on RIP to help contain their Tarmgoyfs and Deathrite Shamans. This has worked decently in practice. It is still not a good matchup, but it might be good enough. One change I am definitely making is the Relic into a third RIP. I would rather have a Relic to mix in against RUG, but I am beating them so consistently that it probably doesn't even matter.
At the GP I had success with sideboarding Surgical Extraction vs BUG, the life loss was not a big deal and it removed Abrupt's to let my CB stay out, or Jace in one case so that my in play Jace wouldnt get legend ruled.
They were initially in my SB vs Combo and Dredge but found them to be good in the non Delver Bug matchups as well.
-
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
There's this thing called Ancestral Vision. CB to flip for 0 is the best way to prevent BUG Agent from running away with the 3 cards he draws. It's not about board situation, pure Card Advantage or other efficient spells from Cascade is just too ridiculous.
On the other hand, Misdirecting an Ancestral Vision to yourself seems like a nice play.
