[Deck] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by Andrew.Schneider

I would never fault anyone for playing smash. Spell pierce just scares me more than chalice.

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Yes it does make a lot of sense.

I noticed that because of spell pierce you also had loads of trouble to get your sulfuric vortex online. Any thoughts of making a small adjustment to the deck or simply run with it and force them to have it?

Also since we are talking about mana constraint... we didn't get to see all your matches but I was wondering how many time do you get or wish to cast snapcaster mage per game? I'm sold on having 3 MD but was wondering if you had any thoughts on this

Cheers

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Originally Posted by MGL

Yes it does make a lot of sense.

I noticed that because of spell pierce you also had loads of trouble to get your sulfuric vortex online. Any thoughts of making a small adjustment to the deck or simply run with it and force them to have it?

Also since we are talking about mana constraint... we didn't get to see all your matches but I was wondering how many time do you get or wish to cast snapcaster mage per game? I'm sold on having 3 MD but was wondering if you had any thoughts on this

Cheers

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Vortex is a tough one to sneak in, but if it gets pierced you don't really lose on the spot. If your shatter gets pierced it actually is game over. Smash is awesome, I'm just conservative. If the game goes close to long, I want to draw 4 snapcasters hehe.

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Originally Posted by Andrew.Schneider

Vortex is a tough one to sneak in, but if it gets pierced you don't really lose on the spot. If your shatter gets pierced it actually is game over. Smash is awesome, I'm just conservative. If the game goes close to long want to draw 4 snapcasters hehe.

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Yes I agree you can't win them all but if you had to chose the shatter is more important.

Going back to the snappy question, I understand the card advantage generated by snappy and the fact that going on three mana you tend to prioritise red over blue... 1 blue and 2 red source for obvious reason but for long games I find that snappy's body get more and more irrelevant and grim sometimes eats the graveyard pretty good... what's your thought of having 3 snappy and 1 TNN MD? I dunno there is something very appealing to me playing 1 TNN for long games along with PoPs and all that without daze... sorry I may be out for lunch but those probes over the daze kinda got me wondering if TNN could be a 1 of...

I could actually see replacing 1 SCM with either 1 Vendilion Clique or 1 TNN, depending on the decks you're trying to beat. However, I do agree that with Andrew that SCM is by far the best late game card in the deck. It provides a lot of aggression for one card.

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Originally Posted by MGL

Yes I agree you can't win them all but if you had to chose the shatter is more important.

Going back to the snappy question, I understand the card advantage generated by snappy and the fact that going on three mana you tend to prioritise red over blue... 1 blue and 2 red source for obvious reason but for long games I find that snappy's body get more and more irrelevant and grim sometimes eats the graveyard pretty good... what's your thought of having 3 snappy and 1 TNN MD? I dunno there is something very appealing to me playing 1 TNN for long games along with PoPs and all that without daze... sorry I may be out for lunch but those probes over the daze kinda got me wondering if TNN could be a 1 of...

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But TNN is bad in the other scenarios where snapcaster is still awesome. Firm believer in all 4.

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Originally Posted by Koby

I could actually see replacing 1 SCM with either 1 Vendilion Clique or 1 TNN, depending on the decks you're trying to beat. However, I do agree that with Andrew that SCM is by far the best late game card in the deck. It provides a lot of aggression for one card.

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Thats fair. Those could be better if you're targeting a specific deck.

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Originally Posted by Andrew.Schneider

Thats fair. Those could be better if you're targeting a specific deck.

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Thanks for sharing your experience guys. I guess I'm too worried with SFM and spell pierce which are rampant in my meta. I thought one TNN would make the deck less soft to those but I agree that SCM makes the deck more explosive.

It is always fun to watch you guys play and this week-end was simply inspiring.

Congratz again!

Grats, Andrew!

@MGL
Daze helps to get Vortex into play and get to resolve Smash. :D
I'm inclined to try the deck without the Dazes and Smelt, though.

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Originally Posted by JDK

Grats, Andrew!

@MGL
Daze helps to get Vortex into play and get to resolve Smash. :D
I'm inclined to try the deck without the Dazes and Smelt, though.

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After seeing Jacob Kory and Andrew pilot ur delver with quad probes I'm sold on the idea of making the switch

I never been a fan of daze in this deck which likes to race to 3 mana for snappy as Jacob mentioned a while ago

Now I just need to find 2 smelts lol

I took this list to a 25-30 man tourny last night and went 4-1-1. Netting me my entry fee x3. I've been running the deck (or similar) before, but not much, but everytime I bring it, it actually goes really well!

4 GG
4 Delver
2 Grim
2 SCM

4 Bolt
4 Chains
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 BS
4 Daze
2 POP
3 Probe
1 Pierce

2 Island
2 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
4 Misty
4 Scalding
4 Volcanic Island

SB:
2 Smash to smithereens
1 Smelt
2 Blood Moon
1 POP
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm


The matches:
Affinity with white. I burn and attack him quickly before ravager becomes a problem. G2 He kills me with cranial on metalcraften Etched Champion. G3 i repeat G1. He is at 5 and i untap and shoot him with Grim + bolt. I lost game 2 because I needed one mana for Smash to smithereens. Wish id had been Smelt in that case. (I only found the smelt in the common box that i really wanted, after the games).
1-0

Tin Fins. I have played against this deck once before, but I had an idea what to do. Before the game he tells me how he just hates delver match ups, and I apologize when i go turn one delver with daze and FOW back up and win from there. G2 he destroys my hand with cabal therapy and triple thoughtseize. Griselbrand gets there. Didnt help either that he extirpated all FoW and Bolts (had 2 in hand) :(
G3 i dont get a creature in the start, and he entombs for Griselbrand. I think i counter his Goryo's and he destroys my freshly deployed delver/guide. I probe him at one point and see extirpate and cabal. I have surgical extraction in hand which I need for his Grisel in the yard. I He cabals me, response I surgical his brainstorms, and he takes my FoW and extirpates them (:D).. Next turn he tries to Goryo's again, but I snapcaster and flashback my surgical and begin beats.
2-0

MUD. Game one goes long with him getting life from wurmcoil and me attack with delver. PoP never gets the job done as he expects it and eventually he gets there. G2 i counter important stuff and land an early blood moon which screws him over. I win easily with everything.
G3 goes to time where he has chalice and sphere in play but draws nothing. I do have delver and guide attacking but he ends up with a lodestone and something else for blocker and none of us can win. We draw. I remember how i should have bolted my guide blocking a wurmcoil before damage, so he wouldnt get 6 life, which might have won me game 2. Boo-hoo..
2-0-1

4C loam. G1 i chain his Bob, daze a GSZ for a knight and double chain another knight, but he gets punishing fire combo going which i have nothing for. My plan was to draw PoP and flashback it with SCM, but I never drew either.
G2 He has everything and I have nothing. He takes away my blood moon with liliana :( and chalice locks me with sylvan, and creatures online.
2-1-1

RB pyromancer. Met a friend with his homebrew of rakdos pyromancer. Game one he kept a sad hand of 3 waste, 2 fetch, 2 probes. I have delver and accelerates. In the end he has a Bob which i let resolve because of his low life and it killed him in the end. He draws nothing really. G2 he sees way more action, with a lot of elemental tokens which kill me fast. I missed an elektrickery here...
G3 is almost the same as G1 expect he has a jitte on board but no dudes.
3-1-1

ID against RUG, but played it out against his other deck; Nic Fit. I lose horribly.....
4-1-1

MVPs:
Daze
Fast creatures
Blood moon
Burn spells
Surgical Extraction

The sideboard was really neat, but I am unsure of the artifact hate, as Smelt often dies to Chalice on 1, but Smash is expensive (standard discussion...)

All in all a very nice deck. I was surpised to see that Schneider did not use Daze. I think they were really good, though I know GG is dis-synergy to it.

Thanks!

I probably missed it - why Smelt over Shattering Spree?

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Originally Posted by Stomping Grounds G&H

I probably missed it - why Smelt over Shattering Spree?

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Instant vs Sorcery

Hello U/R Delver players!

I've fallen a bit in love with this deck lately. As my nonrotatingdecks are 1) Elves! (legacy of course) and 2) Melira-Pod (modern of course), it makes no sense at all why my 2nd Legacy deck I'm currently building is U/R Delver?

As I totally forgot to buy islandfetches when Onslaught was just out, it's not so easy for me to build it with fetches and looking in Modern at Splinter Twin has made me think:

What do you think about a manabase with Steaming Vents and Sulfer Falls? I know obviously the Vents should - eventually - be replaced by Volcanic Island, but you know... Second Legacy deck et al. The main issue is Sulfer Falls: it is definately a nonbo with everything you want to cast turn 1 and Price of Progress. However I threw 2 Gemstone Mine from back in the day in it and it occurs to me that this actually isn't that bad. By the time you want to cast Price of Progress you can actually tap the Mine for the third time first et voila: 2 less damage for you.

Thusfar I'm running a really, really basic build, but if you have any budget tips for me, please help, ok (also: do I really need those Flusterstorms in the board)?

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Goblin Guide (--> 4 is the obvious advice )
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shock (--> 4 Chain Lightnings is very much on my mind, thank you :))
2 Price Of Progress

4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Remand (effectively replaces the two Force of Wills that I will have later this year)

8 Island
7 Mountain
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Wasteland (?)
1 Terramorphic Expanse (!)

sideboard is very much in progress too:
2 Fireblast
1 Flamerift (!)
4 Lava Spike
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt (poor man's Surgical Extraction :P)



I personally think -2 Wasteland, +2 Fireblast maindeck is a better idea to start. Thanks in advance for some advice, especially prioritywise (1st lands 2nd snapcaster or the other way around for example).

Burst Lightning is better than Shock, even if neither is very good.
Forked bolt is pretty value, even if it is Sorcery, I would probably replace shocks with those.
Fire/Ice could also be replaced in one of those slots.

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Originally Posted by syfilisx

Burst Lightning is better than Shock

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Wow. It is actually strictly better than Shock! Man, how I wished I was playing Magic since Zendikar. I think I heard Reid Duke (re?)started back in Zendikar and basicly drafted all his modern fetchlands that season. Myeah... Sigh. But Burst Lightning is about € 1 for a playset, so basicly free :).

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Forked bolt is pretty value, even if it is Sorcery, I would probably replace shocks with those

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Well, I would never play four of them, but I can see two.

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Fire/Ice could also be replaced in one of those slots

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I think I'd rather add a single Electrolyze. Yeah, I know it's three mana, but basicly I divide cards in this deck in "1 mana" and "more than 1 mana" - and lands. And hey: Electrolyze can draw you that Lightning Bolt that you need.

I'll definately will order a pair Forked Bolts!

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Originally Posted by PendelSteven

I think I'd rather add a single Electrolyze. Yeah, I know it's three mana, but basicly I divide cards in this deck in "1 mana" and "more than 1 mana" - and lands. And hey: Electrolyze can draw you that Lightning Bolt that you need.

I'll definately will order a pair Forked Bolts!

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Why don't you go with Rift Bolt and/or Lava Spike?
Also, get those goblin guides fast!

If you don't have the proper counters/creatures (I don't see Snapcaster Mage there), I think you have to make your deck as fast as possible. Basically make it look like a Burn deck with a splash of blue for delver and cantrips.

Guys what's our sideboard plan against nic shift?

Any advice on gameplan also?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Grillo

Why don't you go with Rift Bolt and/or Lava Spike?

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I like that Shock can bolt a creature. But I guess I will swap the Lava Spike from main to board and put the Shocks there.

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Also, get those goblin guides fast!

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Yeah. Yeah. I know they're in high demand. Make no worries, I have six (web)shops (including my LGS) where I keep track of how much cards they have left and based my orders from that. Might seem like a roundabout way, but the last thing you want is a deck without the cards which are the most in demand. Better put perhaps: I rather run my deck with 4 Goblin Guides and 4 Lava Spike than 2 GG, 4 Lava Spike and 2 Shock.

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I don't see Snapcaster Mage there

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Actually. Because I won the tourney last sunday I ordered one for free at my LGS. So virtually my decklist is +1 Snapcaster Mage, -1 Serum Visions. Seems a decent chunk better already, huh? :)

How good is goblin guide actually?
It maybe deals 4 damage (before it catches the removal) and generate cardadvantage for our opponent for R right?

If thats the case,even vexing devil is better...


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

How good is goblin guide actually?
It maybe deals 4 damage (before it catches the removal) and generate cardadvantage for our opponent for R right?

If thats the case,even vexing devil is better...

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It give you pieces of information on the opponent hand, which may help when counter-war is coming. GG is more fitted in a UR core than in a pure burn core deck.
Do not forget that GG may be synergic with Price of Progress.
Last but not least, it has haste, hence GG is a better top deck in many situation than vexing devil.

I am playing the 4 SCM lists and am wondering the SB options.
Right now I am playing

2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
3 Smelt
1 Price of Progress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast

But im considering replacing a Smelt with a submerge, pierce (have 3 main), 3. flusterstorm or Envelop.

How do you deal with Goyfs from RUG, or RUG in general? DUal submerge in the Board? And what do you SB out?

Thanks

Ok, played in a local tournament and finished 1st after 4 rounds.

2:0 food chain
2:0 miracle
2:0 food chain
2:0 miracle

8:0:0 in games.
Well,not very diversified but anyway.

Deck: UR Delver by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:11
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells:31
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Price of Progress
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Submerge

Snapcaster is huge,would like to have 5 copies of him.




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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Originally Posted by Neffy

2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blood Moon
3 Smelt
1 Price of Progress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast

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Blood moon seems way out of place. The decks that this gets will lose to your prices anyway. Seems like a win more.

As for RUG, we can't beat a goyf or a mongoose. Submerge is meh, all it does is put a goyf on top for a turn while you still can't get through a mongoose. This is why I started playing the spike sideboard in the first place, an attempt to go around their big green dudes. Even with that plan if the RUG player understands the matchup, I'd rather not play it.

I am looking to buy into Legacy and already have many of the cards for this deck (UR is my favorite color pair by far), however I am lacking most of the large money cards namely: 4x FoW, 4x Wasteland, and 3-4x Volcanic Island.

I will be buying all of them in the nearish future but where do you recommend spending my first $500-800 dollars? Would it be worth it to just get the duals first or maybe 1 or 2 duals (and use Steam Vents in the mean time) and the FoW and Wastelands? I'd like to play this deck at my local cash legacy tourney, so where should I start?

FOWs and Volcanics are key to make the deck work... but I'd start with the FOWs because it just sucks to get comboed turn one.

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Originally Posted by Grillo

FOWs and Volcanics are key to make the deck work... but I'd start with the FOWs because it just sucks to get comboed turn one.

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I see that Andrew Schneider's list doesn't even run the Wastelands? Instead it has 3x Arid Mesa? I'll admit I don't know enough about the archetype to understand that decision other than maybe thinking it's a list thats geared with far more aggression?

I ask because if I went this route, the Arid Mesa end up being cheaper than Wasteland (and I can use the Arid Mesa in Modern as I'm building UWR Control).

Think this is feasible or should I just get the Wastelands?

If your plan is to play this deck, Wasteland is not needed. You want your opponent to have non basic lands. Its makes price of progress that much better. I would pick up a volcanic, fetches, and as many forces as you can left over.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

If your plan is to play this deck, Wasteland is not needed. You want your opponent to have non basic lands. Its makes price of progress that much better. I would pick up a volcanic, fetches, and as many forces as you can left over.

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Just 1 Volcanic to start?

1 Volcanic, 2 Steam Vent, 8-10 fetches, and a pile of basics should work until you can get the rest of the Volcs. 4 Scalding Tarns are a must though, they're much more important than the extra duals since you mostly want basics in play anyways.

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Originally Posted by Andrew.Schneider

Blood moon seems way out of place. The decks that this gets will lose to your prices anyway. Seems like a win more.

As for RUG, we can't beat a goyf or a mongoose. Submerge is meh, all it does is put a goyf on top for a turn while you still can't get through a mongoose. This is why I started playing the spike sideboard in the first place, an attempt to go around their big green dudes. Even with that plan if the RUG player understands the matchup, I'd rather not play it.

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People dont use blood moon?

I am thinking if you can land it against RUG (difficult tho, maybe not best example), any BUG deck and even D&T, you are way ahead? And arent impacted by it.

In the aggressive/burn version, do you board out Goblin Guides against decks with Top?

Thanks,
Steve

What do you mean by decks with top?
Miracle or also combodecks with top,say show and tell and doomsday?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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Originally Posted by Neffy

People dont use blood moon?

I am thinking if you can land it against RUG (difficult tho, maybe not best example), any BUG deck and even D&T, you are way ahead? And arent impacted by it.

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Blood moon costs more mana than the cards they have that we can't beat. Not the best plan. Where as price can be cast at any point and pressures the same thing you want Blood moon for. I agree, playing a blood moon before they have a gofy out is probably game over but it seems that in those scenarios we're probably doing okay anyway. You can get your wins from those matchups without dedicating those slots to blood moon. Does that make sense?

This feels similar to explaining why surgical is a bad magic card unless they're doing something really unfair. heh.

And D&T has a million plains and vial. Sure they can't port you, but were not the kind of deck that really gets beat by waste/port anyway.

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Originally Posted by personalbackfire

In the aggressive/burn version, do you board out Goblin Guides against decks with Top?

Thanks,
Steve

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Assuming miracles.

Nope, we can't give up the aggression. Obviously its not fun watching them draw an extra card every turn, but its hard for them to cast all their cards if they're dead :)

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Originally Posted by Trei_gamer

Think this is feasible or should I just get the Wastelands?

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If you want to play the burn heavy version you 100% don't need wasteland. If you want to be able to switch to rug/uwr in the future then yeah, you'll need them eventually.

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

What do you mean by decks with top?
Miracle or also combodecks with top,say show and tell and doomsday?


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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I was wondering in general but mostly against Miracles and Junk midrange type decks that run it.

Thanks Andrew for responding regarding Miracles!

Yep you cannot start to grind against miracles with slow "controlish" hands - just crush them with an overload of aggression and drop a vortex in the lategame - gg

By the way,I don't play goblin guide in my deck but thats another story.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

What do you mean by decks with top?
Miracle or also combodecks with top,say show and tell and doomsday?

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In most cases it doesn't matter whether it's Miracles or SnT/DDFT. You need cheap beaters to keep the aggression up.

Against some weird Midrange builds with Top you can board out GGs. I could see myself doing it on the draw, but it really depends on what I am up against. Usually I don't want to swap out GGs.

btw please use the signature forum feature instead of putting this obnoxious stuff into every post of yours. It's really annoying when quoting.

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Originally Posted by jdk

btw please use the signature forum feature instead of putting this obnoxious stuff into every post of yours. It's really annoying when quoting.

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qft

I've been playing around with a list pretty much based on what Andrew Schneider's winning list from SCG Knox. I really love playing the deck so far. One question I have centers a bit around the 9th burn spell. Forked Bolt did the job in Knoxville, but I started playing with Fire / Ice, and also have considered Izzet Charm as something that could go in there. Honestly the first reason I did this, is I don't actually own any Forked Bolts right now (i know they're cheap, they're in the mail to me right now, local stores didn't have them in the commons bins, how dare they!!). Anyway in playing I've run into a few interesting situations where having the utility of the Fire // Ice being able to draw a card actually put me in a position to win against an esper deck. It essentially let me delay along with digging to get another card. It also accomplishes what Forked Bolt does, except it cost 1R instead of just R.

Anyway I was looking at people's opinions relating to pro's and con's of using either of those 3, here's my take so far:

Izzet Charm: It lets you loot, its instant, it kills stoneforge and deathrite, its an extra (but more expensive) spell pierce, and it pitches to FOW. It does not go to the face, and of course its more expensive than forked bolt, it can't hit two targets, and requires you have both colors to use it...

Forked Bolt: its a 1 mana burn spell that hits for 2 along with being able to target two things, which makes it much easier to snapcaster mage cast it for value. Its the most efficient thing to be an analogy of lightning bolt. It doesn't pitch to FOW, and its sorcery speed, which since it can target two things, makes it better than shock for certain situations where you want that utility.

Fire // Ice: It does what forked bolt does for 2 mana, its instant, its also slows down people, by tapping Goyf or Batterskull. It can draw you a card and it pitches to FOW. You can get utility out of it even if you are shut off from one or the other color. All this though makes it more expensive and harder to cast when you really need it.

Anyway. I think it comes kind of down to what you want to do and what types of decks you are facing. I'm also looking for peoples opinions on what else might be interesting to fit into this sort of slot.