As RingoDeathStarr says.
I also watch your twitch later and I appreciate your videos, what with me being a new IP player and all.
You start streaming around 5am my time so it's a tad too early for me.
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As RingoDeathStarr says.
I also watch your twitch later and I appreciate your videos, what with me being a new IP player and all.
You start streaming around 5am my time so it's a tad too early for me.
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Elves die to Peacekeeper. Against SnT it's counters or bust.
I think the deck being unchanged is not an issue. The thing is we are starting to see the deck become far better known. This means people whom are paying attention can know what to expect from your deck. But I feel this is no different to playing something like BUG. So that's not the biggest issue in the world.
That said, I can see a benefit in playing with the side. Cards like Thorn I feel are secondary to Cannonest but 3shpere is a very different beast. Nothing acts quite like it and it kills a large amount of decks. I can see the merit in its inclusion, but I also like the Helm combo and that kills space.
Yeah, other side of the world here I watch the saved videos and really appreciate them, keep up the good work!
Why do some decks run Chandra?
Is there a specific page in this thread that describes IP's matchups?
Check out the front page
Are you happy with eTutor? If my first or second drop is Blood Moon, e-Tutor is dead to my hand. I have to wait to find a petal, if I find it...
I understand that most of the times, e-Tutor is for Grindstone. Because you have no way to find Grindstone, only by luck or with Sensei's Top.
I was wondring if Gamble is better than Tutor. Upgrades more the Goblin Welder's role, because even if you have only Gamble in your hand, and tutor for any artifact, you can discard it and put it into play with Welder.
If your correct play is to drop a moon, then the tutor is of little consequence just like gamble, faithless looting or whatever. Castability doesn't make the card good or bad, it's the effect it has on your game plan.
Gamble is a randomized sorcery, and I played it in a welder heavy version a couple years ago. The point of splashing white for tutor is to find silver bullets and sometimes piece the combo together. It's a stronger glue that holds the deck together.
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I understand that, but how you're going to cast it without W mana? How many turns I have to lose before i figure out that its not so good?Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
In my experience with the deck (mostly mono-red. I gave up playing the white splash a year ago) a turn 1 or 2 blood moon is pretty back breaking for a lot of decks. Most of those decks that lose to blood moon are going to give you a significant number of free turns where they can do nothing but wait until they top-deck a basic land. Those that don't run basics will auto-scoop to blood moon unless they have a mana dork in play. Either way, you have plenty of time to draw win-cons. Enlightened Tutor being uncastable under blood moon is of little consequence considering the value you will have gained from locking down their mana sources to only producing red.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMageGR
My post from ten pages back or so. If you have the chance to tutor and you plan on dropping a turn 2 moon then you should be doing it. Otherwise a turn one moon should be doing enough damage that one dead card won't matter. I've tutored for every card in the deck at some point. Last nights matches showed tutoring for petal to great effect as one example.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMageGR
"Biggest part of shortcake is learning what to preemptively tutor for. For example lets just consider an opening hand with only fetch, tomb, tutor and moon. Holding everything else equal and being on the play there's a ton of different things to eot tutor for depending on their opening. Trop island ponder Do you tutor a petal for a daze proof moon? Volc ponder Maybe petal, maybe bridge? Basic island top what do you tutor for. Blue fetch go do you consider playing around stifle. Fetchland dual deathrite? Fetchland basic deathrite? Dual deathrite?
Again this is just a sample four card hand assuming you're not playing something else turn 1. It'll get more complex (or way easier) depending on what your other 2-3 cards in hand are"
The only time having white cards dead in your hand matters is when you are on the bridge plan. When looking at your hand and you can formulate a plan, asking "If I mulled and got this same hand minus X dead card would I keep"? If the answer is yes, it's a keeper about 95% of the time.
Also, one of the best things about etutor is that you may have that and appropriate lands but no moon. Many times I've eot turn one tutor into a turn two moon. Also, I play 3 petals and a basic plains to fetch for as well (I play a lot of white cards in my board), that makes it more likely you will find your white source behind a moon. As most people state above though, if moon is going to be that good on turn one, then it's definitely worth killing one card in your hand. Gamble is a distant second unless you are playing one of the reanimator versions of the deck.
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Think of it this way;Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMageGR
If you strand one card in your hand with a Blood Moon, you're likely stranding many cards in their hand. I'll happily have one dead card in hand to their many. That's card advantage, in the end.
So, I finished my league swiss with a 2-3 and well out of contention. I lost my final round to Merfolk and again it was an issue with mana.
Game one - had petal, simian and a furnace with a welder and some blasts. I got the welder down and then attempted an ensnaring bridge (probably too early), which was countered. I welded out the furnace to a petal to blast the permission and was countered again. No land and no mana with one welder. Four turns later I see a mountain but am on lethal and scoop anyway.
Game two - Simian, ancient tomb and a couple of bridges with a top and the combo, or something like this. I am countered on everything, which is ok as I am trying to get them out of his hand so I can put down the combo, leaving the second bridge in reserve. Get the second bridge to stick but am killing myself with the tombs. I monkey blast to get the last bridge down, leaving no red mana and then proceed to fill my hand with coloured spells I can’t cast anyway. Bridge is lifted enough for a lethal swing made possible by ancient tomb shocks. SDT sits idle as activating it is literally a killer. (Possibly should have mull’ed this one but the hand looked good)
(On the bright side, I pull out my DnT and win three in a row…)
Also, played some practice yesterday against a homebrew human deck and had been previously smacking it but again mana proved the Achilles heal.
Let me explain the mana difficulties and writing helps me think. I have found the deck has two horror lines that seem to happen to me quite commonly. One is the explosive start that gets a piece down early and then there are not enough lands coming to get anything else down while the hand looks good, any card the is non mana is a dead card. The other type is where I get my three lands and then a drawn land is a dead card. The goldilocks way seems really narrow and often an opening hand that looks great stares promisingly at me for the next, however many, turns it takes me to die. THE DEAD DRAWS!!!!!
I'm not convinced it is a more mana source thing as that will just increase the mid to late game dead land draw. SDT is a good draw smoother and the card that, if I have a shaky hand, can help. eTutor is also nice but tutoring for a furnace feels like such a waste. I’m beginning to think Moons are almost as important to stop my 'shocking' tombs as they are to slow the opponent, whilst I have been boarding them out I think I will keep them in.
Splashing blue will help smooth the draw (a little bit of BS?) and does give us FoW and and a recruiterable Llawan, Cephalid Empress.... but the blue splash is a thing, and it is definitely not a tier deck (I have played it before).
How do we stabilise the explosive start? Fast mana that is permanent over the petals (I understand they play to welder protection) may be helpful. Mox Opal? It is about 0.5 of a turn too slow, it could work but upping the furnace count is unsafe, it is played in blue painter with some impact though. Mox Diamond? Mmm, no. Chrome Mox? It’s possible isn’t it? I kind of like it and exiling a card is not total a bust. And then, I have constantly been asked if I'm running LED and whilst in theory it looks good, I have not been in a game-state where it would have delivered the value I dream of… So, main candidate is Chrome Mox.
Now onto mid to late game value. The curve is set low and this is consistent with legacy. Firebolt takes advantage it, could there be some 4 drops or, heaven forbid, a big 5 drop or two? I have no idea what that card may be, lodestone golem has been suggested and it fits. Wurmcoil engine is used in the blue painter deck.
Hmmm… dunno. (I would like to think I am not a spike - played DnT before it was winning. I like to win, or at least think, I can make something win beyond the rock, paper scissors; "Meta-win")
BTW, Finn (inventor of DnT) is looking to build a red/recruiter punisher deck if you are interested, look MTGsalvation.
If you want to play Chrome Mox, the best shell for that is a moon heavier mono red build. I think the land count for the Rw builds are okay but u have to be more aware of the keeps u make. Sometimes it's just better to mulligan then to keep a hand that like folds to a single waste or something.. I have had a lot of succes with this particular build in the past for those who are interested. Obviously the 'moon plan' is a bit more focussed here, but against a lot of decks it's still insanely powerful. Some decks u have a really tough time to beat when the game goes longer like Jund, Miracles so there's something to say about this particular build too imho..
4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Koth of the Hammer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Chrome Mox
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blood Moon
5 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wooded Foothills
SB:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Firebolt
1 Manic Vandal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Greetings-
Hi everyone,
I am new to the forum but not new to the deck. I have been playing Painter from time to time. Right now I am brewing an early UR list with 3 Dack Fayden MB and I am starting to think that UR (with 4 Goblin Welders) is the way to go in the future. Dack is made for this deck, he digs really fast to find that Grindstone or lock piece and his synergy with Goblin Welder is insane. His -2 with an active Welder gives you an out to various hate that should also not be overlooked.
I'm calling it now, UR will be a valid choice in the future.
Dack Fayden, without know the other cards from Conspiracy, is a good card only in vintage. With three manas I prefer to cast a protected Painter's Servant or an Imperial Recruiter.
@ jungian- I'm pretty sure you misplayed that game one as you should have let the permission resolve and just weld in the bridge. I am actually not sure how you lost a game from against menfolk with an active welder and Great Furnance. I'm pretty sure you misplayed that one.
I would caution strongly against taking too many ideas from the UR painter lists. They are completely different beasts and as such the card choices are often times different. I would say that the fast mana should be five and most likely the optimal split is 3 SSG and 2 petals. Chrome mox use to be used but I think at this point testing has shown it is generally inferior to that configuration. The only four drop you should be running is a planeswalker at this point. As a general rule if you are paying four mana that card better be fucking amazing and able to win the game. Planeswalkers can, although few other cards can.
@ Alex- I don't think it's only good in vintage, but it will agree he seems fucking amazing in a mana drain shell! I think he may be playable in legacy as that is a lot of repeatable power in legacy for three mana. The question is what deck or decks is he best in or can he be a strong enough strategy to construct a deck around. I spoke with jake at length about the card and I have constructed a list testing him in a ru recruiter shell. But in the end it continued to transition away from imperial painter and as a result I abandoned it. But I highly doubt ru painter lists will be much improved in the current meta. It has too many parts and it already could run Jace. Dak is no Jace.
Seth
@Seth, you are probably right on the way I described it, it was definitely a misplay, which, if true, is good news. The point on the goldilocks line I am making still stands though. And I agree on the blue path, having played it before, I am all to aware of its shortcomings. Anyway, what I am experiencing may be a combo thing, coming of DnT which is built to have a smooth draw the contrast is probably as high as it can be.
As Kapn said in his last video, "You either win easily, or you get screwed. There's not really any back and forth."
Seems like painter is becoming more and more popular.... 25 painter players out of 535 at bazaar of the moxen.... third played combo deck after show and tell and storm variants, beating even reanimator and dredge :)
I'm trying out 1 pyrite spellbomb in place of the 4th firebolt as a tutorable creature kill. I searched the thread and no one has tried it before without bomberman combo as well. Someone did mention running a seal of fire, which I like, but this does the same thing (albeit one mana more expensive) and can be welded back and forth for value and additional utility. I am not sure if it is better than the 4th firebolt. Time will tell.
If you are playing mono-red I would not play any pyrite spellbombs. Max out on firebolts.
If you are playing white splash and are running 2 or less welders, running engineered explosives like in Seth's list will give you more flexibility and kill all the same creatures you care about plus other permanents as an upside. For that matter, 2 or less welder lists should probably swap ratchet bomb for Explosives too and keep the full firebolt set. The reason for this is that you are less likely to naturally draw a welder and untap with one alive. You are more likely to gain value from the slot by flashbacking firebolt than you are having a pyrite be an artifact.
Just my thoughts for now.
All this about the Bomb for EE in a 2 Welder white splash list is true. Exactly what I did a few weeks ago and haven't looked back. Although, Ratchet Bomb is only marginally better than EE, not by a large amount.
So ironically I just moved back to a 3 welder list and I have to admit, the consistency of comboing and the welder/top or welder/grindstone shenanigans is so fun. It also makes the MUD matchup inch better, which I was struggling with. My only concern is, with moving cards like Koth to the SB to make room, what happens when you face decks like show and tell or other Eldrazi based decks? You feel so all-in on the painter combo. You just try to beat them with dork swinging? Heavy welder also makes the RIP/helm combo bad on the board. Anyone come up with other combo options? For people who tried a stoneforge package, how did that go? Anyone consider something like a one-of charbelcher or something to win with? Just thinking about options.
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I think he is saying to do the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
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Strawberry Shortcake made it to 13th place at the SCG on the weekend. Pretty standard main (Pyro-1, REB +1) with a thorn heavy sideboard. Is that a meta call? Firebolt vs. Thorn is not a this is better than one is better than the other, they are different right? Thorn is solid (and stacks) but I would be pretty concerned about not having reliable creature kill available. I mean what is your line against, say, death and taxes? Oh wait, that came first...
And Kapn, I have been watching the latest video and that BUG match-up was exactly the way my last three league games played out. In a way, it was a relief to see such a fine player as yourself take some bad beats but I also felt so sorry for you that during the video I tried to type words of encouragement!
Oh lawd... I found Imperial Recruiters for a decent price (comes to about $140 each). Super tempted to jump on this :(
do it! :dQuote:
Originally Posted by cab0747
Hey Kapn, just watched your last stream. And although I didn't actually get to watch the SCG painter that you guys were watching, thinking about the exchange you had I'm wondering if Chandra isn't at least better than Koth in the deck. My problem with Koth is that it does nothing until you ultimate it. And if you are playing against a deck like D&T, koth doesn't live past the turn you drop it unless it's protected by a bridge. I know Koth is probably more of a beat stick against pure control like Miracles, but Chandra wouldn't be terrible in that matchup (ultimate) and seems so much better against small creature decks like D&T, deadguy, goblins?, elves?, etc. Just wanted to revisit people's thoughts on Koth vs Chandra. I might be making the switch.
p.s. So love welder again now, went back up to 3 in my list as well thanks to the shenanigans I saw you pull off in your last stream
Koth's mana ramp is not insignificant and his use when under a bridge is second to none.
God damn... I keep holding off because it is soooooo much money. I can't get these out of my head though....Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix4
Funny, I've played with Koth quite a bit now and a) I've actually never used his mana ramp ability once in a game, and b) I totally agree that he is great under a bridge, but there are just so many times when he is stuck in my hand because I'm only going to get one swing with a 4/4 land and then Koth will be dead. Chandra also seems good under a bridge mostly in the form of card advantage, and can ping off ass weak guys like most of D & T team, bob, v.clique, etc. the biggest advantage that I think Koth has is in the miracles matchup where you can drop him and kill a jace on the spot. I think it's an interesting call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
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DO EETTTTT!!! If anything they are just going to go up. Not to mention the deck is a blast to play! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by cab0747
Fuck it! Just got back from the LGS. Picked up all 4 (the guy gave me a pretty nice deal). Looks like I am playing this deck on paper now!Quote:
Originally Posted by teonsw
Welcome to the fold. Next step, empting your bank for SOL lands...
Already have them all :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I just need the Stones/Painters and 2 Tops. I may want to pick up some Extra REB's and Pyroblasts though. I don't want to have to switch them back and forth.
Edit: Crap... I actually need one more City of Traitors. I also forgot I still need 2 more ensnaring bridges.
Oh well! I have time. I will keep grinding the deck on MTGO while I finish up the paper version.
If your running Enlightened you don't need 8 SOL lands. That said the prices will not go down on City, so it's still a good call.
Yes, I will be running the Rw Shortcake version. My MTGO list is nearly identical to Kapn's list he posted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...s-of-AdventureQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
He is running 7 Sol lands. While I have the 4 ancient tombs, I only have 3 City of Traitors (I could have sworn I had 3 for Omni-Tell) :eyebrow:
I ran the typical painter list at our local tourney for a mox Ruby. Unfortunately due to some very subtle but key misplays I fell from contention.
My two losses were both to skilled shardless BUG players.
Both knew exactly how to play the matchup and I always felt behind. Blood moon was almost irrelevant and DRS and abrupt decay were the bane of my existence.
Generally I would get softlocks and eventually lose to decay.
I generally would board:
In
3 Firebolt
1 pyrite spellbomb
1 koth
2 crypt
1 ethersworn cannonist
1 spellskite
1 ensnaring bridge
Out
3 top
1 simian spirit guide
2 redblast
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 jaya
And something that slips my mind.
What are your guys plays and plans vs BUG? I have found it to be very tight matchup if both players play correctly.
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I don't know your exact decklist but I think you are oversideboarding. I would board in just 3 firebolt, 1 pyrite spellbomb, 1 bridge and 1 spellskite. No canonist, no crypts.
And i wouldn't take out blasts and recruiters for sure.
My list is the standard list with one spellskite in the board.
The bug decks all have one forest and swamp and know to fetch it turn one. Also they will not keep a hand that does not beat turn 1 Blood moon. The blue in the matchup almost always feels irrelevant, hence the blasts out. Welder and cannoist can be quite effective. 90% of the time you lose to goyf or DRS. Perhaps I was boarding one crypt and not two.
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