[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

I tested a Junk-fit list (really just a pile of cards) this past weekend to 3-2-0 results. Not sure how I feel about the deck, and I'll post my list later, but I have some takeaways:
1. Deed is fantastic. 3 for sure.
2. Opposing planeswalkers need an answer. Lost to Ugin and Jace hitting the table ---> Vindicate or Pulse would have worked wonders
3. I tried the SFM plan and ultimately don't like it (SFM -> batterskull was a really strong line all day though)
4. I wanted more than 1x Rec. Sage and 1x Witness
5. Thrun shoulda been in the main, not SB
6. Rhino in the opening hand gives me mixed feelings

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Originally Posted by Warden

I tested a Junk-fit list (really just a pile of cards) this past weekend to 3-2-0 results. Not sure how I feel about the deck, and I'll post my list later, but I have some takeaways:
1. Deed is fantastic. 3 for sure.
2. Opposing planeswalkers need an answer. Lost to Ugin and Jace hitting the table ---> Vindicate or Pulse would have worked wonders
3. I tried the SFM plan and ultimately don't like it (SFM -> batterskull was a really strong line all day though)
4. I wanted more than 1x Rec. Sage and 1x Witness
5. Thrun shoulda been in the main, not SB
6. Rhino in the opening hand gives me mixed feelings

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What were you finding you wanted most from more Eternal Witnesses?

Also, why Reclamation Sage over Qasali Pridemage?

One colour.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

One colour.

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Also synergizes a little better with Therapy, Tower, Intent/Sidisi, etc, because it leaves a body behind.

I'm actually playing in a local tonight. I'll have some thoughts and a list upon my return. It's basically Thune splashing Slaughter Games in the sideboard.

Im on junk plus games as well. Sorry for brevity, typign this while I sit at the beach.

@Arian: I'll make a proper BUG analysis of my choices (card by card) tomorrow if I have enough time.

DTT was obviously tested as a 1-of. The card has some insane raw power but finally I found it unecessary.
4 ponder and 4 brainstorm are enough in terms of card selection and ensure that you get to trade 1vs1 until your deck goes over the top.

Also I tried at all cost to avoid double color requirement in a deck where ramping is your primary key of success and where I have stretched the mana base like a tempo deck.

At last as you mentioned, it tends to delay quite a bit "empty the pit".

It tooks me 5 months (since last christmas) and hundreds of games with my small team to get a 75 running.

The hardest MU excluding manlands based decks to fix was D&T. Properly played, D&T is a nightmare. We barely manage to get a 50/50 thanks to Ooze which was not originally included.

All in all the deck is really enjoyable to play for any decent nic fit & control pilot. Decision trees are among the hardest to make but the higher the risks the higher the reward.

If you wanna make your opponent tilt (like I did to the MUD player last time), you'll have some great great fun.

Any feedbacks / questions would be much appreciated as I think the deck is now mature enough. Obviously, some sideboard choices are highly meta dependant and fairly debatable.

Thanks for reading.

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Originally Posted by Myelectronicdays

that mana cost is the real deal also.. one miser forest on the board hoses casting him.

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Yes. THAT mana damn cost. Urborg might be our new best friend. The mana base would have to be reworked a bit to include a pair of urborg as I believe one would not be enough.

Anyway, it will take more than a few games to determine if the Demigod idea is a good one or not.
3 or 4 will also have to be settled but in a test period you want to max it out to draw any meaningful conclusion.

I'm glad some of you jumped in !!! The more, the merrier.

Didn't get to play much -- low turnout didn't help, and I had to attempt to tolerate a particularly odious person whom I despise that I was unaware would be at the store tonight, so I actually said fuck it and left early before causing a scene. Basically only had one match vs DnT, in which I got him to 1 before he stabilized g1, and then g2 I never drew a second G/B source for my hand of Golgari Charm, Decay, double Deed. Like a turn 6 Thalia saved his ass game one when he didn't realize it would actually do anything -- but it locked up my mana enough that I couldn't loop Rhino to kill on the spot, which would've been game.

Initial impression for the first time playing it since like October -- yeah, Rhino is real. The amount of pressure Rhino generates on its own without any bullshit backing it up (elspeths, equips, exalted, etc) is nuts. The Thune package felt as clunky as ever...arguably more so now that Sidisi is basically mandatory as yet another 5-drop. Unfortunately I feel as compelled to include a combo finish as ever, because regardless of durdle or clunk, I really do believe that nic fit as a whole is better when there's a combo in it.

Note that I will not defend my list. In fact, I don't even feel like typing it up. It was basically garbage. The sideboard was sweet, though:

3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nether Void
2 Golgari Charm
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Garruk Relentless

The two planeswalkers were my usual two "fair.dec over the top" slots. I mostly went with them because I originally wanted 2 copies of each maindeck but had to cut them for space, and I was running short on time to come up with anything better. There's definitely better candidates for these slots, but assuming that they continue to be used as fair.dec toppers, I will say that I feel pretty confidant in this sideboard. It's prepared for basically anything -- the usual candidates still slip through the cracks, but I've long since given up hope of ever having a good matchup vs MUD, 12post, etc.

Also, the interaction between Slaughter Games and Nether Void rustles my jimmies. I can't wait to do that to some asshole combo player.

In other news, telegraphed hatred kills with Ralf's cunning wish deck are just offensive.

Ralf, what other instants were you considering for the board? So far during the few matches I've played I've only replaced the crypt incursion with a ravenous trap for a little more versatility, I've also just grown fond of the card after playing vintage online for a while. Dig through time is something else I want to test out but I have a feeling it's just worse then grabbing a high impact spell like empty or hatred.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I really do believe that nic fit as a whole is better when there's a combo in it.

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Agreed, having that inevitable win (now) is missing in both Rhino as PFire builds.
Something just holds me back to start playing Scape.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Also, the interaction between Slaughter Games and Nether Void rustles my jimmies. I can't wait to do that to some asshole combo player.

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[emoji23]

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Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE

In other news, telegraphed hatred kills with Ralf's cunning wish deck are just offensive.

Ralf, what other instants were you considering for the board? So far during the few matches I've played I've only replaced the crypt incursion with a ravenous trap for a little more versatility, I've also just grown fond of the card after playing vintage online for a while. Dig through time is something else I want to test out but I have a feeling it's just worse then grabbing a high impact spell like empty or hatred.

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I apology for the incoming wall of text. Here is a not so quick sum up so that anyone could jump in.

Deck history:

Since the print of "Empty the Pit" I have been working on a list to make that game ending spell "legacy playable".

1) I mentioned it the first time in this thread here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post851242

2) Then, after a good testing period:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post854002

3) Here is the first iteration including Cunning Wishes:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post856127

4) Here is the first time I have included "Hatred" as a faster win condition against decks where you are playing the "aggro" role:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post859699

This list is a very good starting point as I spent the whole Christmas holidays playing against my team and tuning the deck.

5) The first list I played in a local tournament:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post866754

Here is a list of SB instant spells that have been used/dismissed/put aside depending on your meta:

- Pact of Negation
- Ravenous Trap
- Slaughter Pact
- Meditate
- Krosan grip

The list might be not comprehensive at all, but at some points, those cards were heavily tested.

I used to be playing "ravenous trap" as another gravehate spell but with the recent inclusion of Scavenging Ooze, the card no longer feels necessary. Too much redundancy will get you. Yet, it is a total blowout in some MU (Dredge / Storm namely). As a matter of fact, I would not dismiss "crypt incursion" too hastily. Although the card can seem "poor" at first sight, I found it has a much broader application than the say "ravenous trap".
I've won games with Crypt incursion against dredge like I would have with ravenous trap. But I've also managed to get very far ahead against Aggro or Tempo decks where no other card could have saved my butt. Gaining 15 life points on average is no joke. It is even better in a control shell buying you more turns to crawl back into a dominant board position.

DTT was never considered as a sideboard option. Actually if you look at the very first lists, during testing, it took the 2nd Jace place and finally was completely cut from the 75.
As aforementioned, you already have plenty card selections and I tend to not fall into the "cantrips into cantrips into cantrips" mind tricks.

We went back & forth wondering with my team whether the deck really needs a big draw spell as a wish target. We believe it does not, even more when we had to reduce the number of main deck wishes down from 4 to 3. I might be proven wrong here, that is the main point of sharing the list in this thread.

Furthermore, we stuck to the initial plan: play as many spells as possible that grow the graveyard without letting know your opponent you are advancing your game to the point you will be able to instantly kill him.
Therefore a few cards got the axe:
1) Sensei's divining top is a huge asset but it does not grow the grave. As the mana base was stretched to the point it is now, sensei was slowing us down (as also the game's path). Furthermore, sensei was also adding an unnecessary heavy branch to a decision tree already complex. It got the axe.
2) Once Sensei was gone preventing the deck from being played out of the top of your library, Liliana +1 effect was more a liability in a reactive deck than anything else. She got the axe.
3) At some point the creature package was including one or a pair of Vendilion Clique. This might be the creature I miss the most but the UU cost made it very difficult to include when you first goal is to reach UBG as fast as possible.
4) The weakest cards in the deck are the charms. But when they are strong, they are really really good. Often times they have replaced the wish I safely keep for later on during the game because of their unique effect. Often times, they are reshuffled with a BS into the library...

By no mean this list should be considered as a "set in stone" 75. If I had to set some core cards in stone it would definitely be:
- Cabal Therapy
- Veteran
- Baleful strix
- Glen Elendra Archmage
- Abrupt decays & sweepers (PD, Toxic, etc)
- Blue cantrips (BS & Ponders)

Therefore, I invite anyone interested in such a shell to test it and draw its own conclusion and share it.

It is completely "off the radar" and you will get a lot of wins just because your opponent is not ready to face such a "weird" Nic Fit build.
Anyway, you will win many games just through the "good old aggro route" punching faces with GLE, Vet & Ooze. Otherwise, you'll get to punch some faces out of nowhere.

More to come later (especially a SB card full explanation).

Thanks for having reached so far !

Here is the 75 that I went 5-0-2 with at the 80 man on sunday. I have stayed with the main deck for a few weeks now but the SB gets changed up.

2 island
2 swamp
2 forest
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 creeping tarpit
1 tropical island
2 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs

4 veteran explorer
2 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 tasigur, the golden fang
2 thragtusk

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstrom
4 force of will
2 dig through time
2 ponder
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil

SB
3 thoughtsieze
2 surgical extraction
2 negate
1 dispel
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
1 thrun, the last troll
1 maelstrom pulse
2 notion thief


Played against Bant blade, bug delver, goblins, rug delver, mentor miracles (terminus no entreat). Drew my next 2 rounds and then was knocked out of top 8 by post mud.

I know Ralfs deck plays out fairly differently but I have been finding Dig to be amazing. Being able to dig for jace plus deed or some other double bomb pull is too good and even if you don't run it main 1 in the side to turn cunning wishes into actual CA seems good. I tested a 4 wish package but kind of felt that the 3 mana tacked onto answers made it a little slow and that there were times I would want to wish for just some gas but didnt have anything. This was before dig so I actually tried out Fact for a bit. Never ran it in a tourny though. I ended up moving more to a bug control style with vet and therapy to cheat on land count.

I boarded force out a lot. Came out in my first 4 match ups. I still like running it main as the deck is all 2 for 1's that can help get the CA back and protecting Tasigur and Jace is also fine. Makes the combo match-ups a little better pre board. Post board I feel fairly fine against most combo with discard, counters and "lock" pieces in surgical and notion thief.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

Here is the 75 that I went 5-0-2 with at the 80 man on sunday. I have stayed with the main deck for a few weeks now but the SB gets changed up.

2 island
2 swamp
2 forest
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 creeping tarpit
1 tropical island
2 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs

4 veteran explorer
2 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 tasigur, the golden fang
2 thragtusk

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstrom
4 force of will
2 dig through time
2 ponder
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil

SB
3 thoughtsieze
2 surgical extraction
2 negate
1 dispel
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
1 thrun, the last troll
1 maelstrom pulse
2 notion thief

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It reminds me the time I was playing a heavy Walker Fit list or even the good old Pernicious Jace BUG deck.

Jace + Liliana will always be a good way to close out games.
I played Tasigur in a "nearly miracle" esper list for a while and the card is insane coupled with DTT + Sensei. Once active, you are almost able to choose the card your opponent has to give you back with Tasigur ability.
Did you ever try sensei in your list ?

I can see that I'm not the only stretching his mana base with BUG Fit.

21 lands among which you have 2 Pit (it is a good way to sink your mana). Did you ever experience any problem as your curve is a bit higher than mine ?

I don't know if you ever tried out Glen Elendra Archmage ? I have never been impressed that much by notion thief.

Finally, moving forward what changes would you make to your initial list ?

Tom,

I'm a weekly watcher of the Meadery legacy (and modern.) I love that there are no commentators and we can hear the players. I guess the 80 man tournament was not broadcast? Bummer.

I really like your version of Bug Fit. You eschew all the "cute" stuff and finishers for solid control elements and card advantage. Congrats on your finish.

I can build this deck minus one Jace. Would you suggest an additional lili or a ponder in its place?

Thanks for the huge reply Ralf, lots of good info there and a perfect example of why I love watching this thread.

I do like your points about crypt incursion and I'll definitely keep that in mind. I was considering it's application when under pressure but haven't really had the need for it yet so I could be undervaluing it.

The charms were also exactly what you described, occasional all stars with dimir charm being very impressive and golgari charm doing it's normal thing of saving me from blood moon. If I were to cut one I think it would be replacing the md golgari charm with another deluge. The innocent blood is another main deck card I wasn't the most impressed with and may be changing. Not sure what I would want in it's spot yet though. Part of me just wants the fourth strix.

Hey all, I'm hoping I can get some community feedback on my list. The main 61 has been the exact same for a good while now, and while the sideboard changes around a bit, this is its current form. I was going 2-2 at our events for a long time, then a few 3-1's but I've not yet managed to crack the 4-0 with it. I definitely don't get to run the number of reps with it that many people do so I was wondering if some more of our...veterans...eh..EH?...sigh...could see if there was anything clearly to be improved or if the thing to improve is just my playing. Thanks everyone!

Land (22)
2x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Windswept Heath

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Creature (14)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Diabolic Intent
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay (fixed!)
3x Path to Exile

Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Choke
1x Cranial Extraction
3x Duress
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge

A note about the Duresses in the board over Thoughtseize (and I'm still on the fence about this logic) but it occurred to me that what Nic Fit is really good at, particularly in these colors is removing creature threats, either with Decay, Path, or Deed. The hard matchups came from combo decks and Duress gets the spells that we care about out of their hand anyway. On the other hand, life against those decks doesn't always matter, but it could buy you a little more time. That might be totally wrong, but I'd been trying it out.

Have you found 5 Abrupt Decay to be enough? I think you should put another one in the board.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Have you found 5 Abrupt Decay to be enough? I think you should put another one in the board.

-Matt

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Whoops! Typo there for sure. It flip flops from 4 main, to 3 main 1 board. Sorry folks!

I'm obviously kidding.

How do you find Intent still? I've cut it for a Sylvan Library to test, and so far, Sylvan does work.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'm obviously kidding.

How do you find Intent still? I've cut it for a Sylvan Library to test, and so far, Sylvan does work.

-Matt

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Well, honestly Intent hasn't come up often, but when it has its been really good, in some cases pulling me out of nearly unwinnable games. If I was going to run a one-of between the two, I figured at least one gets me anything I want it to (obviously as long as I fulfill the sac clause). I almost considered running a Dryad Arbor to enable 'GSZ for 0, Intent, get something else' plays. That being said, I'm still not 100% on it.

I don't have time for a postwall at the moment, but I will quickly interject that you are 100% wrong about Duress vs Thoughtseize. As you correctly note, those slots are for combo of all types. Here's a couple scenarios:

You Duress your (revealed to be) Infect opponent. He has Invigorate, Berserk, a Vines of Vastwood, a couple nonimportant cards, and a Glistener Elf. Admittedly you're not in a good position whether Thoughtseize or Duress, but Thoughtseize lets you take the sole infect creature whereas Duress merely allows him to not overkill you by as much.

You Duress your (revealed to be) Sneak and Show opponent. He has double Show and Tell, a couple cantrips, and a Griselbrand. Same scenario as above despite a different deck: Thoughtseize allows the game to continue. Duress does nothing.

I'd write out an example for Elves, but I think that you get the idea by now.

I'll grant you that Duress edges out Thoughtseize in some matchups. 2 life is a storm count vs ANT/TES. 2 life vs burn. Etc. But overall, Thoughtseize is simply relevant in the most situations, and vs the most decks that we struggle with as an archetype. I would run the 4th Thoughtseize before I ran the 1st Duress, not counting corner cases like Gifts.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I will quickly interject that you are 100% wrong about Duress vs Thoughtseize.

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Thanks for the clarification on those. I can definitely agree in those situations for sure. I wasn't 100% sold on Duress either, but your explanations definitely prove the point. I'll run with Thoughtseize next time.

Thoughtseize will always be better in the majority of our matchup. It allow you to pick the most important card of their hand. The lifeloss is nearly always irrevelant (except for the obvious combo, burn and such), we have to think about our life total as a ressource being a control deck after all ! On the other hand you can just get out with playing both for the combo matchup.

How have Elspeth been for you so far ? I'm at the moment thinking of a list with Elspeth and/or Liliana, but so far haven't been able to test. In my eye, liliana is a tad better due to it's ability to answer an opposing creature. However, Elspeth allow us to close the game faster and is can't get abrupt decayed...

All in all great list, even though i'd play less creature and more removal, but that's just my personnal taste !

Elspeth is one of the best planeswalkers for white-oriented nic fits, bar none. She accelerates the clock, sometimes unexpectedly for the opponent, builds a persistent board presence, and has a highly relevant ultimate. Finding room for her can sometimes be challenging, but never underestimate the card's power level in our deck. Flying rhinos is terrifying. Also, keep in mind that Elspeth (and other combat walkers) is one of the absolute best cards you can have vs Miracles, which is -the- matchup right now.

I still personally believe that Liliana belongs in exactly PFire builds, and some of the PFire players have been saying lately that she's been disappointing even there.

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Originally Posted by Holo_rip

How have Elspeth been for you so far ? I'm at the moment thinking of a list with Elspeth and/or Liliana, but so far haven't been able to test. In my eye, liliana is a tad better due to it's ability to answer an opposing creature. However, Elspeth allow us to close the game faster and is can't get abrupt decayed...

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I really love Elspeth in the list. She has done so much work for me whenever I play her. The tokens she makes are built in protection, and the +1 to jump a creature can either close a game really fast, or goes a long way in dealing with other walkers. Even a token, explorer, or deathrite can kill a Jace if you jump them into it. I've never gone ultimate with her, not because I didn't have time, but because every game that got near that point ended before she could. Making 7/8 flying, trampling rhinos is just a ton of fun.

She is also, as you've mentioned, pretty tough to answer. Most of our creatures can block for days on the ground, and decay is no good. Sure, shes not invincible, but she demands attention the moment she hits the board. I'd say to give it a go :)

@Starscream- To be honest I would just play a 3rd ponder to find Jace. aside from the cantrips which provide consistency Jace backed by both discard and force as well as the nuckleheads of creatures we drop into play it is really the best card to have. Ponder seems fine though another snap or baleful depending on your meta would also work. I am on 2/2 between strix and snap and cant decide if I would want another snap over strix but then on Sunday (which was not at mead hall unfortunately as they do usually stream many events) I ran into plenty of decks like the delver and even mentor deck where just having a killspell on board was nice. If you think you would see more control or combo then Snap is way better. Especially with a board of things like negate, dispel, TS and surgical in addition to the cantrips you usually use him as.

@Ralf- I have found tasigur to be amazing and the only downside is that he is legendary which can come up against things like dnt where they have karakas. Otherwise I accumulate so much mana that it is another source of CA as well as just a quick beater that some decks have a tough time removing. I also like that it really forces decks to think on how they want to attack the deck post board. Leaving things like swords in can become a liability if you just play out walkers and removal but if they take it out tasigur, tar pit and tusk can become problems.

- My mana base is definitely greedy. 21 land is not a lot especially with tarpit. My thoughts were If I can set off vet im usually good and if not then the cantrips have to find them. I have definitely gotten stuck on 3 mana sometimes but the deck can still operate with removal for awhile. I think the trade of is that the deck is jam packed with gas and 2 for 1s so in a drawn out game you can just have more power than most decks. I also side out vets against certain decks. I did build this deck to be able to play a more draw-go style control game. This deck can win plenty of games where you just drop land for a while, case removal and strix and then power out walkers. If I did add a land it would probably be some type of utility land.

- I used to play a glen elendra in my SB but I ended up not particularly liking it. I think its great against those control or combo decks once you get it out there and its one of the cards I would like to add back but I just never really found what I wanted to cut to bring her in and it ended up being a slot that I felt was wasted. However, it competes directly with Notion thief, so if I dropped to 1 or 0 glen elendra would be the first replacement. I am a big fan of notion thief tho, in a meta with miracles and omni I like notion thief more. Its an instant play vs sorcery and it allows to sometimes just jam at end of their turn to draw countermagic for the untap jace or lily or dig. To be honest, they both provide wins if they resolve (in most cases) or a large advantage so I kind of see them as play preference. Also Notion thiefing jace is just fun, so there is that... lol

- Moving forward I am not sure on the SB but that is so meta dependent it is hard to find a perfect 15. I would probably drop a TS and maybe add 1 more card that comes in vs delver and creature decks. Tusk is also on the block but its kind of a necessary evil with some type of lifegain in the md is probably good. Plus him and Jace and just lock out aggro with the bounce reply trick that does come up more than I would have thought.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

with the bounce reply trick that does come up more than I would have thought.

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Yep. Bouncing Glen Elendra (and snappy to a lesser extend) has happened many times.

How are your D&T and Jund MU ? I had to put aside my old BUG builds because I never felt favored with many Walkers against P.fire or against a Revoker (on Deed) protected by a MoR. And oh boys, my meta, at that time, was infected by both...

Anyway, your list looks pretty solid and if anyone has never tested Tasigur in a control shell, now is the time.


@Thread:

I had a couple of hours yesterday night to make a few games with the Demigod list I have posted a few days ago.

I have to acknowledge that this list is pretty badass, and yet, not tuned at all.

Here are few *hot* comments:
- The mana curve might be a bit high especially when you have a couple of Demigods rotting in your hand.
- Even if I hit for 10 or 15 on a few occasions, we might get what we need with only 3 demigods so that we could fix the above comment.
- I had forgotten how much bolt is OP. 75 % of my finishing moves were a double bolt to the face ...
- I'm in love with Kolaghan's command. How come I didn't think of it sooner. The "Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand", at instant speed, is completely OP.
- Since the last time I played Scape, I haven't kill anyone at such a speed.
- There are many nice tricks with Demigods and I'm sure I haven't seen them all. "Ambush you for 5, sac' God to therapy, rape your only out from your hand, replay another God next turn for 10 in your face" kinda makes me happy.

Did anyone have had time to do some tests on his side with the list and want to share some feeling / ideas ?

@Tom4ik - I'll keep an eye out for BUG nic-fit when I make it to Mead Hall. It'll probably be a few weeks before I have my Junk list complete though. What is the meta like there? I've only played Modern once at Mead Hall.

The appeal to try that BUG list... nearly cannot suppress it. Good job both Ralf as Tom.

Currently i am recollecting the missing cards to put together JUNK NicFit. A while ago i sold of a bunch, but the good news is that i can go full Japanese on JUNK in the process. At first i had some appeal towards a Stoneforge package coupled with the amazing mister Sun Titan, but i stepped away from it and wanted to have more of a PFire feel to it. Biggest difference being that it has "less" control elements, but more beatdown. This while keeping in a variety of creatures to have slightly more a toolbox for Green Sun's Zenith. Also i am keeping in some spots for Planeswalkers. Elspeth and Vraska. To achieve this i have sacrificed the Intent/Nightmare package and didn't stick to having 3/4 Siege Rhino. At this point i am keeping in Thragtusk since the creature has been so amazing in my PFire list. Although this could easily become Rhino nr 3. Also i will be playing Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares since i mostly do not care when the opponent grabs basics out of my Veteran Explorers anyway. It also makes Marit Lage a juice target. I will try to compensate the loss of Slaughter Games with Memoricide, because i refuse to go 4 color's.


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

// board
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Memoricide
1 Dryad Militant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Carpet of Flowers

Does this mean i am stepping away from PFire? NO. I am still waiting for the good mailmen to deliver Stormbreath Dragon. For now the list has booted the CMC 6 slot and 1 Liliana (painful) to make room for 2 Strombreath Dragon's. No changes in the board. A lot of testing ahead, in that testing there are 2 things i want to try to confirm. 1. Is there legitimate place for non-green creatures in the deck?, 2. Is missing Liliana really a miss?


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Slaughter Games
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

// board
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless

I love the idea of Demigod, I'll grab a set then give something a spin at my LGS next Tuesday (it's streamed on Twitch, so I'll let you guys know if I get it together in time, store is Darksphere).

If we're playing Punishing Fire too, Faithless Looting could be nice to discard Demigods and Fires. At the risk of becoming too GY dependent, what about Entomb? If you're casting one Demigod, then Entomb is the second for one black mana. Maybe this is going off the usual Nic Fit path, but it could be pretty powerful. Can Entomb for a therapy in a pinch vs combo too. And of course find P Fire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Here are few *hot* comments:
- The mana curve might be a bit high especially when you have a couple of Demigods rotting in your hand.
- Even if I hit for 10 or 15 on a few occasions, we might get what we need with only 3 demigods so that we could fix the above comment.
- I had forgotten how much bolt is OP. 75 % of my finishing moves were a double bolt to the face ...
- I'm in love with Kolaghan's command. How come I didn't think of it sooner. The "Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand", at instant speed, is completely OP.
- Since the last time I played Scape, I haven't kill anyone at such a speed.
- There are many nice tricks with Demigods and I'm sure I haven't seen them all. "Ambush you for 5, sac' God to therapy, rape your only out from your hand, replay another God next turn for 10 in your face" kinda makes me happy.

Did anyone have had time to do some tests on his side with the list and want to share some feeling / ideas ?

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Just some small ideas, not to much depth in them tho.

That mana curve is something. Rebuilding the manabase would defently be a requirement. The question is, how well does Veteran Explorer work with setting up that manabase, granted you need green mana to startup ramping, but cannot use Forests to fire of the Demigod. Getting duals in the early game might make you vurnerable to Wasteland. I would almost say cut down green entirely and go for a more eva green, but instead red splashed build with Dark Ritual...

On a not to serious note about Demigod. A planeswalker often being overlooked is Liliana of the Dark Realms. Being able to keep grabbing lands might assist you ramping even harder midgame. Plus that her -3 becomes bigger overtime. And if your gonna use Urborg, Tomb of Yaghmoth it would defenitly help that -3 ability.

Anyway, Kolaghan's command is gonna have a go soon in the PFire list. I will replace 1 or 2 Slaughter Games for either 1 or 2 copies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Just some small ideas, not to much depth in them tho.

That mana curve is something. Rebuilding the manabase would defently be a requirement. The question is, how well does Veteran Explorer work with setting up that manabase, granted you need green mana to startup ramping, but cannot use Forests to fire of the Demigod. Getting duals in the early game might make you vurnerable to Wasteland. I would almost say cut down green entirely and go for a more eva green, but instead red splashed build with Dark Ritual...

On a not to serious note about Demigod. A planeswalker often being overlooked is Liliana of the Dark Realms. Being able to keep grabbing lands might assist you ramping even harder midgame. Plus that her -3 becomes bigger overtime. And if your gonna use Urborg, Tomb of Yaghmoth it would defenitly help that -3 ability.

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Well, I thought about revamping the mana base but the ability to fetch for a swamp + green of a dying veteran is too important (if you have already a forest and a swamp in play).
I lost very few games yesterday. We are still a midrange/control deck and not being able to cast a demigod of only 5 lands in play did not seem too much detrimental.
But yet, an other active card replacing demigod n°4 might be better. Time will tell.

the 3/3 split between DRS/Vet might not be the best one but the fact that I played a lot against deck with red didn't help at all sticking a DRS in play.

Based on your experience, are 4 GSZ too many for only 10 green creatures ?
I am very tempted to replace a demigod for another GSZ.

I didn't know this card existed until now. Would it be worth it as a SB card in non BUG lists?


Guttural Response

I think flusterstorm is definitely sufficient for that effect while being way more flexible.

Short answer is no it doesnt hit anything back breaking in any matchups. None of the green counterspells are worth running.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dissection

I love the idea of Demigod, I'll grab a set then give something a spin at my LGS next Tuesday (it's streamed on Twitch, so I'll let you guys know if I get it together in time, store is Darksphere).

If we're playing Punishing Fire too, Faithless Looting could be nice to discard Demigods and Fires. At the risk of becoming too GY dependent, what about Entomb? If you're casting one Demigod, then Entomb is the second for one black mana. Maybe this is going off the usual Nic Fit path, but it could be pretty powerful. Can Entomb for a therapy in a pinch vs combo too. And of course find P Fire.

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If I were to play entomb, I would play a strict G/B Fit deck.

Actually, I have a monstruosity somewhere in my binder which looks like:


4 Veteran explorer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk
1 Genesis
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Glissa, the traitor
1 Deathrite shaman
1 Wickerbough Elder

3 entomb
3 reanimate
3 crop rotation

3 Abrupt decay
3 Pernicious deed
1 Engineered explosives

1 recurring nightmare

3 Cabal therapy

1 Life from the loam

1 wasteland
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold
1 karakas
1 dark depths
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Swamp


Well, the deck is not linear at all and might be what you should expect from a legacy deck nowadays. Some very strong T1 to T3 plays.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

the 3/3 split between DRS/Vet might not be the best one but the fact that I played a lot against deck with red didn't help at all sticking a DRS in play.

Based on your experience, are 4 GSZ too many for only 10 green creatures ?
I am very tempted to replace a demigod for another GSZ.

---

DRS alone didn't, but the sum of all lifegain did pull the weight.

4 GSZ have never felt like it where to many. i have always been happy to see one or more. I often fire them of when i have them to push critical mass. Sometimes i hold them back when i am building up for a specific target. Early game to lategame i build up from Veteran Explorer as a target to Courser to Hunmaster or Thrun to Thragtusk/PrimeTime. As the game advances youd see them more often, but still ive never gotten in situations that i did not have a target. Also it helps when one or two get countered that they still keep showing up (often enough).

Edit: reducing the number of gsz also reduces the chance of reaching critical mass theoraticly. Aside from that gsz also provides a shuffle effect for both SDT as for Courser (to a lesser extend).

Feels fucking good to get dirted by the ol' double Leyline of Sanctity into Boseiju protected SnT into Omni into Emrakul, which obviously beats my REB+Grip hand. Cool story, bro.

Hopefully this doesnt keep up I dont want to need an oring/ ashen rider effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Yep. Bouncing Glen Elendra (and snappy to a lesser extend) has happened many times.

How are your D&T and Jund MU ? I had to put aside my old BUG builds because I never felt favored with many Walkers against P.fire or against a Revoker (on Deed) protected by a MoR. And oh boys, my meta, at that time, was infected by both...

Anyway, your list looks pretty solid and if anyone has never tested Tasigur in a control shell, now is the time.


@Thread:

I had a couple of hours yesterday night to make a few games with the Demigod list I have posted a few days ago.

I have to acknowledge that this list is pretty badass, and yet, not tuned at all.

Here are few *hot* comments:
- The mana curve might be a bit high especially when you have a couple of Demigods rotting in your hand.
- Even if I hit for 10 or 15 on a few occasions, we might get what we need with only 3 demigods so that we could fix the above comment.
- I had forgotten how much bolt is OP. 75 % of my finishing moves were a double bolt to the face ...
- I'm in love with Kolaghan's command. How come I didn't think of it sooner. The "Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand", at instant speed, is completely OP.
- Since the last time I played Scape, I haven't kill anyone at such a speed.
- There are many nice tricks with Demigods and I'm sure I haven't seen them all. "Ambush you for 5, sac' God to therapy, rape your only out from your hand, replay another God next turn for 10 in your face" kinda makes me happy.

Did anyone have had time to do some tests on his side with the list and want to share some feeling / ideas ?

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I haven't seen the list, but it seems to me that multiple copies of Diabolic Intent would fit that list incredibly well.