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I have a question, since I'm noob to this archetype: is there a loop with Flickerwisp and Mangara or does Flickerwisp just allow you to re-use Mangara once?
Also, has 8.5 Tails ever been played in this archetype or is he less than optimal? He's extremely powerful given enough mana...but Mana can be at a premium at times.
8.5 tails has been plazed and was considered subpar and to manahungry if i remember right
and flickerwisp does allow you to reuse mangara once, but you have to use vial to get flickerwisp in play in response to mangara activation, othervise mangara will be gone forever, but flickerwisp has a lot of other uses as well
removing blocker, remove opponents attacker, so it has again summoning sicknes, setting the counters of a chalice or a engineered explosives to 0, or setting the loyalty-counters of an opposing planeswalker to their initial value, killing a dreadnought or marit lage ......
i think now you should have a picture of how usefull flickerwisp is
Well, I came up with this off shoot of Death and Taxes that could best be described as Clerics Tribal:
3 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Rishadan
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
3 Planar Guide
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Beloved Chaplain
3 War Priest of Thune
1 True Believer
2 8.5 Tails
3 Master Apothecary
3 Mangara of Corondor
It's frustratingly hard to play against and has multiple ways of locking the combat step, either with Apothecary fogs or 8.5. Planar Guide is roughly equivalent to Flickerwisp as far as Mangara interactions go, though it has the added value of protecting the congregation from deed wrath or spout. So far, it has some promise. It's pretty good against survival, at least.
Planar Guide is not equivalent Flickerwisp in helping Mangara. Using Guide Mangara can't remove another creature, because that creature will be removed by Guide.
What's the advantage of using these alternative creatures?Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
Specifically: Master Apothecary, Planar Guide, True Believer, Beloved Chaplin... are you finding them to be better than conventional: Serra Avenger, Jotun Grunt, Stoneforge Mystic, Flickerwisp? It seems like you lose any threat of a clock IE nothing swings for more than 2 and you have no evasion. I guess the creature set up is ok versus agro since you can just attition battle them with a field of protection creatures and damage prevention tricks, but we can beat most agro with the conventional list anyway. Combo and Jace based control seem like a nightmare with such a defensive set up.
Hello everyone! I am a former dreadstill player who just recently started playing this deck, I havent played it in any tourneys yet but frequently playing it on MWS and I have to say, woah, this deck is nothing short of amazing!
I have some thoughts on this deck and I would really appreciate some feedback on them.
First of all, how does this deck fare in a creature-based meta (lots of tribal, especially goblins/merfolk)? My local meta is sprawling with them
How is the Survival MU?
in my brief testing period I've found that running green splash seems to be the way to go. Grunts are replaced with goyfs and then possibly O-ring for qasali and I guess Teeg could be sideboarded as well. What are your thoughts on this? what are the pros and cons with the green splash?
thanks in advance
yea D&T is very good aginst trible decks :) så give it a shot and ownd the merfolk and goblin decks ;)
Hi folks. Some thoughts after reading the last bunch of posts:
1. The deck is and must continue to be tailored to the metagame it is used in. This is true for all decks, but in a deck with something with 10-12 counterspells, not as much since those are catch-all defense. But in D+T the creatures must be accurate for your meta or your disruption will be wrong. Sowhether or not to go WG is included in this decision. The build in the OP atm is for the pre-Vengevine metagame with lots of Lands, Zoo, Dredge, Countertop, and Merfolk. It definitely needs some patchup work. Feel free to let me know how you think it should be mended. I am talking aout the monowhite build, now mind you...
2. I think it is time for me to include a green splash build in the OP. I mean, I guess there could be a new thread, but there is plenty of discussion here for that so please let us see your builds. I have some ideas myself, but they are really just my guesses since I have very little experience with it.
3. The Venge-surivial matchup has received a lot of attention by D+T players, but I have not spoken to anyone who has solid info on how hard it is. In my experience, it is not that tough, but I think my build has something to do with that. Just like with so many matchups, there are a lot of little things that annoy those players. But we have little to say to the crazy openings they can get. I lose those. But I can't even tell you if it is definitely positive or not. We need to know this. I admit that I am not up to date. It's a down time for me and Magic. So solid info would be lovely.
I think MD 4 Arbiters definitely needs a look...it wrecks so much decks specially when you vial it in, in response to an oppopnent's fetch...i think it fits the mana denial plan of the deck...it also is very good against survivals...
@ Jumbo: Arbiter is a true meta call. Mine meta doesn't allow me to run them, at all. Others might.
@ Survival decks: LOL, they need a permanent to go off. Most versions of D+T I have seen have at least 10-12 card slots that handle Survival decks without dedicating time to the archtype itself.
I find that MD Canonist is also rather handy against Survival. MD Canonist or Arbiter is all a matter of taste. I like canonist more MD, but I still keep Arbiters in the SB.
I havent played a lot of DnT, so I wouldn't know. I'm not sure if this alternative can truly be considered better or worse...just different. I came up with it one day for fun then started playing it and noticed it had potential to be more than just a "fun" deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
I started with Arbiter, as its a real hoser against survival and the rest of the format that extensively uses fetchlands and tutors. As such, SFM had to come out, because that is very much a nonbo.
I found Master Apothecary to be good as he basically makes the entire board > Firespout (one of two sweepers played in the format, the other being deed) . Guide, i discovered later as a way to protect from deed, although its clearly suboptimal when compared to Flickerwisp as far as Mangara tricks go. Guide's slot was originally Ethersworn Canonists but I eventually cut down then replaced the last one MD for True Believer. The two are interchangeable hate bears vs Combo, but true believer is better vs burn. I do believe that War Priest is good enough to be run main in this meta, cleric or not.
As for threats: well, yeah. The decks is basically a stack of hate bears. The only real threat is Jitte. However, Chaplain carries Jitte with evasion and Tails can provide some evasion too.
Combo: I run a lot of main deck hate bears, so its going to come down to draws. Did they get burning wish or infernal or do they have pocket Ad Nauseam? Active Mom or 8.5 + Canonist (or Arbiter, depending on their hand) seems like an unwinnable board for them. Granted, that's not as fast as going turn 1 chalice for zero, but who runs MD chalices? Also, hate bears still beat for 2.
Control: The only thing I'm afraid of is Deed or EE. Any board with Mom + 8.5 is pretty much unassailable otherwise. Jace can't protect himself from Mom or 8.5, either. So CBtop decks, which mainly only run swords and spout for removal, are pretty easy. Landstill's really tough though.
@ Finn: I would like to know what are your toughts about the G splash. I have been advocating since long now, and I am intrigued about what the creator of the deck has to say about it. If you want my feedback on the g splash, just ask. Regarding the Vengevine matchup, well, I'd say it depends on your build and on their build:
- To me the UG version is easier than the GW, given that having Vial kinda annuls their counters. GW packs Mother, StP and (usually) Stoneforge Mystic, so it is significantly harder for us to win.
- If you play MD Arbiter and/or Canonist, the matchup should be very winnable. The G splash offers Pridemage, which also helps, as well as Goyf. I do agree that is difficult to win against their nutty hands. Postboard should be a cakewalk, as you'll have access to: Arbiter, Canonist, Pithing Needle...I don't see how we can lose that.
@all: Arbiter is a great card, but as it has been said, very meta dependant. If a significant portion of your meta doesn't use fetchs, i think it better stay on the side.
I don't think postboard is a cakewalk, since they do have trygon predator if they're UG and qasali pridemage if they're GW.
Arbiter does help a lot though. Without arbiter, even postboard, it's still going to be tough.
Also, whilst shutting down UG is a bit easier than GW, Wonder is very very annoying.
Lorgalis, I think the green splash changes quite a bit. I can see that it has its advantages and just about as many disadvantages. I think that it is asa it appears to be - a valid meta choice. If entering a tournament with D+T, it would be cool to have the cards for both on tap so that you can decide in much the same way you would go about switching out cards like Arbiter and Canonist.
I'm running a pretty standard GW DnT build:
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [IN] Forest (3)
3 [A] Savannah
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [LG] Karakas
3 [IA] Plains (3)
4 [MPR] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [4E] Sylvan Library
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [FNM] Wing Shards
SB: 1 [FNM] Aura of Silence
I'm pretty happy with how the deck is performing. As you can see, I'm running sylvan library and only 2 equipments which is a little odd perhaps. I am also not sure whether or not my mana base is stable enough. My main concern here though is my sideboard. 4 Enlightened tutor is definately overkill, I very seldomly use them anyway. Running 4 needles seems totally fine so I'll probably make a swap there. Apart from that, I'm wondering what common tools there are to deal with combo decks?
Any other tip would help greatly. My local meta is sprawling with tribal decks such as goblins and merfolks so I should be happy I guess and I'm slowly but surely getting a hang on how to play this deck. I am, however, not satisfied with my sideboard.
Today was the day of the Finnish Legacy Championship. It was rather strange. While there was a lot of Merfolk and Storm, the top 4 decks consisted of Bant Vengevine Survival, GW Death and Taxes, Death and Taxes and UGB oldschool control (Psychatog+quirion dryad).
I played a standard build with 4x MD Arbiter, but couldn't borrow wastelands so meh. I still took 3rd. Too lazy to write a proper report. So here's something:
Round 1: 2-1 against Storm. 1, lost. 2, Opponent deals with hatebears eventually and makes 8 tokens. I win through them. Game 3, he Ad nauseams and flips one of the cards he wished last game, gets game loss.
Round 2: 2-0 Aggro Loam. I deal with his threats and get an Avenger with/without sword to stick. Fairly simple.
Round 3: Eva Green. 2-1. I draw badly and lose due to that.
Round 4; Welder-reanimator thing. 2-1. I topdeck like a lucky bastard and win due to that.
Round 5: Ub Merfolk. 2-0. Opponent misplays round 1 due to no matchup knowledge. Beyond that, usual Merfolk game. Game 2 he has no creatures after removing two to FoWs for Mothers and Mystics.
Round 6: 2-1 Thoptersword. He doesn't know the matchup. Game 1 he gets fast countertop. Games 2-3 I win with fliers before he gets stuff online. He didn't really know what to do.
Round 7: Draw into top 8
Quarterfinals: vs. Storm. He gets bad hands and loses 2-0
Semis: Bant Survival. I misplay it like a moron and lose.
For third place: UGB control thing. I get good draws and win mainly due to them.
Impressive! what about your list? did you end up with Kotr or just plain W? perhaps post the whole decklist while you're at it!
I was playing plain Mono White.
14x Plains
4x Karakas
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Jitte
1 of each sword.
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
SB:
1x Jötun Grunt
2x Cataclysm
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Wing Shards
It was largely a lot of luck. The sacrifices to Tzeentch worked out well. I recommend it.
i was wondering how the UGB-control list with quirion dryad and psychatog looked like, i would definitely be interested in that list as well, specially since it made top 4
4 Dryads, 4 Togs, 4 Accumulated KNowledges, Serum Visions, 2 Pernicious Deeds, Smother, Duress, Brainstorm, Counterspell, FoW.
I'll get the decklist for it when it's posted.
If you could post the GW list that made top8 it would be great...
They haven't posted the T8 decklists yet. I'll get them up when they post them on their site.
That was actually UGw Vengevine madness. The guy had a regular madness shell with a splash for StP and Qasali Pridemage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinizer
You got super lucky with the storm matchups, but that's how it goes in large tournaments.
again wondering about that ubg control/list, i was thinking if the dryads were only used by that guy because he had no tarmogoyfs, or were they more efficient / bigger than goyfs?
what do you think @ penguinizer
They were 2/2s for a turn or two. It took them a few turns to get to 5/5 size. However, if they did stick around, they ended up being 8/8s. It still wasn't as big of an immediate threat as goyf largely due to it taking a few turns to grow. I think they were replacements for Goyf.
He wasn't running Thoughtseize, and specifically said he just made the deck in a few hours on the previous day so I believe it was just cards he had laying around.
How were the mishra's factories for you? Did you have any game wherein you could have said that you'd want them over Rishadan Ports?
It was my wallet speaking.
In the end, they tended to hold off smaller creatures or joining in on the final attack. I'd rather have had Ports and Wastelands, but I own neither at this time.
Also, I ended up trying a GW build on MWS. I didn't really care for it. I'll probably end up playing a MonoW build with 4x Maindeck Arbiter focusing more on mana denial with Wastelands, Ports and the Arbiter. Fish wasn't bad even with the Arbiters, it was still pretty easy. The additional manadenial and loss of tempo caused by Leonin Arbiter seems very useful.
http://deckcheck.org/?x=8QRflGWV2M4iF31hlGRfiaiaiaiabE
Another D&T deck doing good...actually it's a bad D&T deck haha but it reached 1st nonetheless...
Hmm but it only had 18 people so maybe it's not that big a deal...
Reading this, and thinking....why not splash red, if only for the sideboard? It could change a lot of match ups, especially against Landstill.
I didn't run vials for the pure cheap creatures i am running and the simple fact its just a constant beat down, hopefully.
This is still a work in progress
4x Icatian Javelineers
4x Mother of Runes
1x Savannah Lion
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Silver Knight
4x Soltari Priest
4x Suntail Hawk
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Body and Mind
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pariah
2x Seal of Cleansing
4x Wasteland
4x Plateau
4x Windswept Heath
10x Plains
//Sideboard
3x Blood Moon
4x Boil
2x Pariah
1x Pyrostatic Pillar
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Serenity
3x Phyrexian Furnace
What makes you call it a bad D&T deck? It could have been tuned for a known meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
Doesn't seem as much tuned as it seems to follow a "spray and pray" philosophy to me ;) You either want 4 Mother of Runes, or you want none at all (the latter presumably only if your critter count is very, very low). You either want to have 4 Ethersworn Canonist, or you want none at all (depending on how you want the preboard matchups versus Enchantress and Storm Combo to look like). That list is just random imo.
Hmm maybe it was my choice of words...maybe bad is the wrong word...but it cannot be denied that the deck is not optimal as said also by the above post...in addition to that, the lack of wastelands and rishadan ports as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
Wait... WUT????Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
While I agree the deck you are referencing is a bit random... why on earth do you need to be playing FOUR Ethersworn Canonist or none at all? That seems foolish to say the least.
My lists typically run 2 to 3, but NEVER run more than that and rarely run less. I find 3 to be the ideal number in a storm / enchantress heavy environment. Especially since this deck also wants to be running other outs to storm combo aside from just creatures (that also happen to be artifacts). Other outs that can include the following: Gaddock Teeg (in the GW variety of this deck), Runed Halo, and in some lists Chalice of the Void. Simply put there is enough variety to allow for this deck to not need to simply rely on one out to a hugely popular archetype such as storm to the extent where it needs to run 4 copies of the card. Especially when Storm can and does pack answers to Ethersworn Canonist in the form of Creature Removal and things like Hurkyl's Recall or Echoing Truth among other things. Even Enchantress can and does run answers to a resolved Ethersworn Canonist in the forms of Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring.
Went 4-1 yesterday at our local shop's weekly tournament, a short writeup of how it went can be found on MTGS: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...18#post6115218
intresting list, how have the arbiters and mindcensors been for you?
As I've tried to point out in the thread I've linked to (way down in the "Lessons Learned"-paragraph), both were incredibly good. I wouldn't go out on the streets without either of them in this meta of mine, as it stands of today. I think that Arbiter will stay a force to be reckoned with even after the expected banning of Survival of the Fittest. Mindcensor is also great, though hitting three mana consistently on turn three isn't that easy - it could be backbreaking in a mono-W staxx-like list however, I imagine.
If you think about it, stopping library search is probably one of the most powerful effects the game "learned" over the last few years, simply because so many "unfair" plays (Fetchlands, Natural Order, Entomb, other Tutors, ...) that D&T, either by choice or by nature, doesn't abuse, require your opponent to do just that. Arbiter is a very welcome grain of sand in so many engines that forces a great many decks to play "fair" again - rely on ordinary draw, with a little manipulation by means of Brainstorm and the like. And if you (have to) play fair against D&T, you'll have a hard time winning, as this deck's resiliency and power can be astonishing - esp. for the unprepared.
Hi,
I want to introduce mine Loamed GW D&T.
Its middle Aggro control with prison option.
Here's the list:
Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Creatures:
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage
Enchantments:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
Sorcery:
2 Life from the Loam
Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB(mostly focused on strom/burn/gobs/zoo):
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke
-----------------------------
Comments on cards chosen:
I focused mostly on mana suppression, while keeping aggro from vial. Most of decks actually (even merfolks and gobs) uses fetches and splash colors thx to SotF dominance.
We have virtual 6 wastelands (4 wastelands + 2 ghost quarter)
6 Search suppressors (4 Leonin arbiters + 2 Aven mindcensor)
9 removal (4 StP, 3 Mangara and 2 oblivion rings)
Mini toolbox for Enlightened Tutor (Prison for hard aggro decks, Jitte for simular decks, uniwersal removal - O-ring and sometimes we goes for Vial in control MU for example).
Life from the Loam fits here perfect in our game plan, with Knight of Reliquary is like armaggedon (we can take down even basics with quarter).
Qasali Pridemage are very universal and with Exalted are quite nice beater.
As u looked on list i don't use fetchlands - to avoid sell-prison while arbiter is on table. After second land drop Knights of Reliquary can easy search wastelands/ghost quarter's
After 4 Weeks of testing MU %:
Merfolks - amost Bye without removal with Vial on table its gg, every creature is a thread for him evansion is also a problem for him, with Flickers reseting his vial. 70% after sideboard (Perish/hibernation) its about 60% - Choke for the win.
Goblins Rb - Lackey is an issue without StP in hand it can be problematic, but Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison/Umezawa's Jitte resolve all our problems. about 55-60% preboard/about 60 after (absolute law helps a lot)
Survival decks - on paper this deck is total hate for them, but while playing i think its about 50% even after board, that was disappoint, main reason building this deck was to punish SotF search engine..
ANT/Belcher/TES - Pre board its about 40% our worst MU. After board its about 60% is quite nice Leyline/hatebears help a lot, also with Search suppression/Mana suppression we have quite lot time to beat combo driver.
Threshold U/g/b - Stifle is an issue quite often, but its quite tide MU 50% after board Choke can be very handful.
Burn - next bad MU preboard very easy after.. 40%/70% after
Lands.dec - quite Favorable depends on build about 60%/65% after
Alluren - almost bye, alluren in play can help us more than opponent, his search engines arent great while suppressed by arbiter/censor 70%/70%
Landstill - Favorable 60% / 65% after board (Vials helps a lot)
Sneak Show - Favorable (3 Karakas do the job) 65%/65 % after
Pox - Favorable 65%/70% Loam helps keeping mana on table, most time i was main LD plan :]
Zoo - Flickers help a lot but its still unfavorable 45%/60% after
Conclusion deck is solid, best MU while playing vs non-combo middle range aggro/control specially multicolor mana base.
Any more suggestions ?
Well, that is an intersting new deck, but...does it improve any unfavorable matchups for DnT without giving up already favourable matchups? I don't thinkso.
Why play this instead of Aggro Loam? :wink:
Its more universal with 5 Pernament removal (2 O-rings, 3 Mangaras), also it has batter MU than Aggro loam vs Blue based Control. Also mana base is sometimes tricky (mostly opponent thought your playing SotF :) )
With Qasali Pridemages Burn acceptable MU Postboard, also Zoo isnt so scarry with 6 Wastelands.