[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

Probe is almost strictly better than street wraith (it can be countered by mental misstep). If anyone still runs wraith they should just switch it to probe IMO since it contributes to storm which I find to be very key in this deck.

A tourney report from me playing Nemavera's list with maybe a handful of manabase changes otherwise very close to Nemavera's 75.

Round 1 v. Zenith Rock
I open with duress and see GSZ x2, terravore, and KotR. Take a GSZ. His turn one he goes bayou into dryad arbor off of GSZ. Turn 2 I sculpt and turn 3 I win with a standard meditate stack.
Game 2 he thoughtseize's me and takes my sensei's top. I play land and pass for a few turns while he gets some non hate bear creatures down one of them a confidant along with some goyfs and stuff. I get down to 2 life and IGG loop him out of the game or do the standard meditate stack I didn't take notes and my memory is foggy on this.

1-0 (2-0)

Round 2 v. ????
I can't remember what happened this round I think I faced a very favorable MU or something but I won 2-0. I didn't take notes at the event so yeah I'm doing this off of just memory but I remember I didn't drop a game against this opponent either.

2-0 (4-0)

Round 3 v. Merfolk
I know what he's playing when we sit down since he played next to me during the 1st round or 2nd round again my memory is foggy. Game 1 is kind of dragged out with myself cantripping and him not getting a massive force of blue men on the board I think he just had a cursecatcher and a silvergill adept or something. I run an excess SDT into daze rather than duress him after I brainstorm into the nuts and win the next turn due to him being out of cards in hand/countermagic with my life total relatively high.
Game 2 bring in 4 xantid's and 3 carpet of flowers for 3 duress, 1 rain of filth, 2 cabal rit's, and a ponder or something. He's on the play. I attempt turn 1 top which gets dazed after he landed a turn 1 vial. Turn 2 he drops double cursecatcher. I cantrip on my turn with brainstorm and fetch. He beats for 2 and drops a land and passes I think. I cast infernal tutor with a dark rit in hand with no mana open and he sacks a catcher to counter it. Next turn I do the same thing with infernal and he is again forced to counter it. Instead of running out xantid swarm with my one land I drop an excess SDT which gets dazed as I thought. Next turn I untap and cast xantid swarm which gets forced. I'm thinking he doesn't have any countermagic left so I go off via tutor chain into tendrils since my hand was pretty stacked at this point. Never saw a carpet of flowers. But who cares when you can just tutor chain into the win.

3-0 (6-0)

Round 4 v. the Mighty Quinn.
Game 1 is the grindiest game of magic ever. He mulled due to lack of mana and was stuck on 2 lands for a few turns while I opened on top and was topping away. When I duressed him I saw abeyance x2 and chant along with an enlightened tutor or something and took the chant. He tutored for top and cast top and passed it back. At this point I settle in for a very long 35 minute game due to him holding double abeyance and with that top he is able to find a grand total of 6! chant effects/abeyances and he gets a runed halo out naming tendrils during this time. So I doomsday after casting 3 LED's and one dark rit, draw with top, meditate, and get chanted which is fine with me since I included a doomsday in the pile for this very reason. He takes another turn due to meditate and while he has 2 runed halo's total in play I EoT chain of vapor one of them and he is finally tapped out due to him casting elspeth and using scrying sheets along with casting another runed halo so I say "Finally you're tapped out which is what I've wanted this entire game lol." So I EoT chain one of his halo's on my turn I untap with boatloads of mana because I have accumulated 6 lands this entire time. I drop an SDT, Doomsday again, chain of vapor my petal and pair of LED's for storm before bouncing his runed halo to win the game with tendrils. Sigh of relief after that one long game.

Here I misboard though and bring in 4 xantid swarm's for the duress's and a cantrip or something. I should have boarded in the 2 echoing truth's and 2 hurkyl's because he got scepter chant on turn 2 and I couldn't win on turn 3 with him tapped out so the rest of the game he kept upkeep chanting me and I couldn't find the chain of vapor even with sensei's top and a lot of fetchland activations. He ends up winning just as we go to time with elspeth. So we draw unintentionally since we can't play a game 3.

3-0-1 (7-1)

Round 5 v. New Horizons

Game one he wins because I can't assemble a winning hand through his stifles and wastes.

Game 2 he brings in meddling mage which is unexpected on my half (didn't board in slaughter pact). He names doomsday because he's a good player and has been playing legacy for years now. When I duressed him he didn't have force just a spell pierce and stifle or something. I took pierce. He draws off of canopy at one point and I don't have a white source but I do have an uncracked fetch. When I try to go for it I fetch which resolves I try to chant him he forces. I cast a dark rit and he forces again. Very good draws sir. I only had a basic island after the second force so I couldn't go off and he killed me next turn.

3-1-1 (7-3)

Top 8

I face RGb Aggro Loam with thoughtseize instead of chalice. Not sure if he's splashing white for swords or not I didn't see swords at all both games though. Game 1 he thoughtseizes me and takes doomsday which was my only business. I lead with top and pass. Turn 2 he plays confidant or something. I win with a meditate stack on turn 3 or something.

Game 2 he thoughtseizes me on turns 1 and 2 taking my business and leaving me with a boatload of mana. I brainstorm into the nuts though and IGG loop him out followed by a short tutor chain.

Top 4 splits so I get a savannah/$40 in cash since I sell it back. Overall I'm very pleased with the list though it's a really good list and the deck overall was phenomenal. Not once during the day did I feel like I could lose with the deck and that I always had a chance to win. Well done Nemavera the list is a beast. I also did play a basic swamp for those who think it's bad they may be right but I like for my lands to stick around and I really like 2 basic lands for this reason since they stay the entire game and it isn't hard to win with 2 lands in play with this monster of a deck. Overall I'm very satisfied with the list though. I never once brought in hurkyl's or reverent silence though I should have brought in hurkyl's against quinn so get out of the stupid scepter lock he assembled turn 2.

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Originally Posted by leegoo

I think probe fits better in the versions that ran street wraith / Idea's Unbound.

Mental Misstep still has a pretty strong effect vs. this deck. Almost every pile requires a 1cc spell to get to tendrils...

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How so? I can think of multiple piles without 1cc to get to tendrils, even those assuming you have no brainstorm/top in play/hand (this is the most difficult scenario)

Using pulp's list:

You can cast Doomsday and if you have Burning Wish in hand, set up a pile of:
LED
LED
Infernal Tutor
IGG
Tendrils

Cast Burning Wish (1R) tutor Ideas Unbound, cast Ideas Unbound (UU), draw LED LED IT, play LED LED IT (1B) in response crack LEDs, tutor for IGG. Play IGG (2BB) replay LED LED IT, tutor for Tendrils, play Tendrils

Requires a startup mana of 1R+UU+1B, Burning Wish, Ideas Unbound, Infernal Tutor. Dodges 1cmc spells all day and a grand total storm of:
10.

The point is, this deck has the option, and there's definitely the option to play ENTIRELY around Misstep. This pile also beats CBTop if they only have 1cmc on top and are tapped out (e.g. if you duressed them while they're tapped out and they countered the Duress). It is probably the most difficult pile but it still beats the Misstep scenario because I assumed you are setting up piles without brainstorm/Top. If they do have a misstep, then you can also setup piles that bait the misstep with SDT and continue to chain off with IGG.


BTW, this deck is fucking beautiful. I'm going to start learning and practicing it seriously, because I think the deck can really win-through a lot of tough matchups, and when it can't, you know that you had the option to, and you're actually playing a game of thinking, instead of other combo decks that just storm off whenever they can and lose to itself. The deck's so beautiful because the power of Doomsday is really dependent on the list. E.g. If you choose to play 1 Street Wraith or Probe, which is otherwise terrible in other combo decks, the deck turns that random Street Wraith/Probe into a pile that actually uses it to win games rather than cycling cards for the sake of cycling. The deck makes every card look good, it makes every card feel like it's worth something in the deck.

I wasn't saying EVERY pile imaginable was nulled by MM... just that a very large portion (and especially the cheaper piles) require a 1cc spell. I believe 99% of Cheezeburger's sheet has a 1cc spell in it.

and your example pile also requires BBB bringing it to BBBBUUR2 - with 9 mana I can sculpt some piles that beat a LOT of stuff, especially since (in this example) we're taking for granted they don't mmstep your dark ritual to get started (or you use cabal / just have a sh*tton of mana).

Again, I'm not saying MM is the end of the world... just that it's not something you want to see spoiled.

But MM coming into the format is not something we can avoid. Basically, it's going to be a thorn for all combo decks, and a little more annoying for DDFT to mulligan more aggressively where they could have kept a mediocore hand with Top and sculpt (you can no longer do this unless you have a Duress + Top in opening hands).

To be fair, the deal with MM is that fundamentally it's still a 1-1. As long as you recognize this and pack enough 1-1 yourself e.g. Duress/Thoughtseize, you will be able to play around it.

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I wasn't saying EVERY pile imaginable was nulled by MM... just that a very large portion (and especially the cheaper piles) require a 1cc spell. I believe 99% of Cheezeburger's sheet has a 1cc spell in it.

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Then to be fair, most combo decks do need to resolve 1cmc spells to go off (TES/ANT/High Tide). No other storm deck has the ability to win through without 1cmc spells unless they luckily draw hands with LEDs and IGG/IT. This is the strength that I think DDFT has over other storm decks when MM is in Legacy. You do get your tops countered but you will probably lead with turn 1 Duress more often instead of turn 1 Tops. Every other storm deck has less chance to play against MM than DDFT does.

I agree with that totally

I don't think your opponent looking through your deck is a bad thing. Once you play against them or someone sees what your playing they know you kill with Tendrils and Emrakul. But here is the thing, even though they get to look through your deck .. very few people can play this deck correctly, especially someone who is playing CB. So the fact that they look through your deck really will not help them since this is the level most are at: resolve Tendrils and play Shelldock to get Emrakul into play. Thats what everyone sees, knowing your protection spells doesn't help. They can count them .... so. But knowing I have Wipe Away in my deck will not change what card they name with Meddling Mage or what they name with Cabal Therapy.

I think it may actually work to my advantage, because they see cards they view as threats and board in a lot of things to handle JUST Emrakul and then they lose to storm, or they hate out Tendrils and forget I have access to Empty the Warrens. Most of my opponents know me at this point and don't look through my deck anymore. And when they do, they just sift through till they see SI and Emrakul and put it down. The fact that my opponent gets to look through my deck I find has little relevance.

@Mental Misstep: I think it is getting WAY overhyped. Time will tell, the card seems annoying at best and will snap some Tops off but ... hey I love that this may replace better cards like Spell Pierce and Stifle or even EE making EtW a LOT more effective. I think the card will punish people who are less thoughtful of their play (like having 2x Top in hand and leading with a Duress) that kind of thing but I am not 2 worried about it. Annoying yes, but good .... we will see.

Pulp, especially with your lists with Burning Wishes, even if they started counting and trying to deduce your line of play, Burning Wish makes it hard for them to deduce if you're opting for a Tendrils/EtW/IGG path. I can even imagine yourself bluffing a Shelldock Pile and only to kill them off with lethal storm with BW and LEDs in your hand. I'm going to piece this up and test it out this weekend.

After first 60 matches vs. decks playing MM I can say: we are not doomed at all (and I'm not in the same league as emidln, nemavera or Pulp_Fiction and probably never will). I hope people will start testing and stop writing about their feelings about MM.

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Originally Posted by Deviruchi

After first 60 matches vs. decks playing MM I can say: we are not doomed at all (and I'm not in the same league as emidln, nemavera or Pulp_Fiction and probably never will). I hope people will start testing and stop writing about their feelings about MM.

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The point about Mental Misstep is, that our tempo matchup sucks donkeyballs now. Nonblue decks playing that card aren't a concern. The way we play the Counterbalance Matchup postboard won't change either. Even Merfolk with Misstep should be still 50/50, since we were favored before. But against tempo decks our whole game plan is broken due to the printing of that card. Up until now we layed down lands in order to make their Daze's and Spell Pierce worse. We played Meditate over Ideas Unbound and boardet out most of our cc2 cards to blank their Spell Snare's. We played Chant's to drag out their Force of Will's. Now we can't do that anymore. All of the spells which are great against tempo decks are cc1 spells (Carpet of Flowers, Orim's Chant, Sensei's Divining Top). We can now either accept the fact that our tempo matchup has become way worse or we can come up with a new concept to fight that archetype.

Defense grid helps a lot. At least it was suggested in the SI thread as a way to beat MM. And defense grid isn't just limited to MM it stops a lot of countermagic as long as the opponent has less than 6 mana available we can win. We can also threaten with it on turn 2 before they drop a threat so we can have ample time to set up. MM is not the end of storm combo people it's decent against us but it isn't the nuts. Our tempo MU just got weaker sure but it isn't the worst if we SB properly. We could also maybe try city of solitude to stop control. Also nice about city of solitude is that it's good against CB. They have to proactively top on their turn to shut off only one type of CMC and we can fight through that if we know what CMC it is. If it's zero then we can sculpt a hand full of non artifact accel. If it's at one we just have to calculate that when we go off via doomsday since we can't recast a SDT we'll simply have to plan out how to properly reach 9 storm before casting tendrils or 8 storm if they have fetched twice. There is plenty of hate available for blue decks out there and even with stock lists we can still beat MM if we play around it right.

@ FLRN - I think that may be a bit exaggerated... I think simply having so many 1 drops that thresh needs to answer is fine vs. MM. They do still have to draw the card which is a 4 of (if that many). Other than getting top/ponder countered on the play (which is bad, no doubt) I don't see it just throwing the matchup hugely in their favor. A large portion of the time it's going to be just like playing against daze (honestly, a good part of the time having to pay 1 more is pretty much effectively countering us going off that turn anyways, as very often I use every mana available going off)

Defense grid seems fine, City of solitude seems just a hair expensive, but might be ok as well. I think Abeyance is a passable replacement for chant/silence if MM is a huge problem. The card is good, and it's new, but after playing games against it, it doesn't dramatically change the way the matchup works beyond the fact that you need to be careful keeping hands that hinge on resolving a t1 cantrip (like 1land + top hands)

Also, the Emrakul + Show & Tell package isn't a terrible sb option against MM packing decks.

But again, I'm not saying MM isn't a good card against combo (and everything else)

Went 3-1-1 tonight with my regular list posted above. Made it 2 a top 8 out of .. 26-30ish people. Here is a brief description of the matchups and the piles I used.

Round 1: W/x Affinity (2-0)
g1: this guy never plays the same deck twice and since he played Blue control last week I assume aggro something this week. I am on the play and go turn 1 rit, DD. I build this pile: Brainstorm, Top, LED, IGG, Tendrils. I have Petal, Petal, LED, IT in hand ... simple IGG loop wins.

g2: He keeps a hand and slowly realizes he can't cast stuff (he is a good player and top 15rd the Atlanta SCG but he was already in a defeated mindframe at this point and didn't care). Turn 3 Meditate stack: Meditate, Petal, LED, LED, BW.

Round 2: RGb Zoo (2-1)
g1: I mull to 6 and keep an awkward hand. Stall after a Brainstorm whiffs and lose shortly after. Probably should have gone to 5 but I put him on Belcher (after seeing Tinder Wall and Taiga as he was basically showing me his deck while shuffling) and kept a hand w Duress. Player error on this one but I also just couldn't draw what i needed.

EDIT: I am typing this on my tiny notebook in my basement so I apoligize for the spelling errors. I am regretably not drunk posting this because most people on here know how much I like posting drunk. Sadly I am sober typing this, contrary to like 30% of my posts here :)

EDIT: I apologize for the spelling errors but I typed this on my notebook in my basement and the keys are tiny as hell. Regretably I am not drunk, and everyone on here knows how much I love updating this site drunk, but unfortunately I am quite sober, contrary to 30% of my other posts on this site :)

g2: I mull to 5 ecause I apparently don't play lands. This game needs some strange description and is a weird combination of luck and skill. Everytime I look with Top I can't find a shuffle effect or an action spell. So on turn 3 after missing on a BS, I drop Shelldock to look at a fresh set of cards and stick Emrakul under it (knew it was there after BS showed me Emrakul, DD, Tendrils). I CAN NOT FIND ANOTHER BLACK SOURCE TO CAST DD. I have in play: Top, Shelldock, Island, Sea, and Volcanic Island .... end of turn 6 he has 8 permanents and I am at 3, he is tapped out. A quick look with Top reveals a fetchland .... god damn, 1/3 of the deck wins at this point and I couldn't find my 3rd black source (Petal in hand). Play fetch and go into the think tank. I have never encountered this situation before but .... I realized I can build a pass the turn Meditate stack w Emrakul! I have 4 lands in play and enough 2 win. Play DD and build: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils and activate Shelldock with my hindering Island. Take my next turn, draw Meditate, swing for 15, and cast Meditate into a lethal Tendrils. This was just strange but it worked.

g3: I open: Brainstorm, LED, DRit, Petal, Island, Infernal Tutor, Cabal Ritual .... not sure if he boarded in Mindbreaks so I decide to Brainstorm and see: LED, Duress, land .... yep, turn 1 win with protection, turns out he didn't board in Traps. This is why you play combo; its strong most of the time and sometimes it just broken.

Round 3 - Bant Aggro (Thor) (2-1)
g1: Duress shows its clear and a turn 3-5 Meditate stack takes it easily.

g2: He rips like a pro!!!!! I get to a point where I try and combo off with a lot of rituals and BW for EtW (after Snare and Force) and he shows me a Spelll Pierce taking me to RRR floating ... eh, well played and drawn sir :)

g3: Similar to the first. Duress gets forced on like turn 5-7 and he has 2 cards in hand and is tapped out. I decide to go for it and say "alright Thor, show me Force and I scoop" .... he can't and I build a standard Meditate stack without BW and a few extra mana just in case of Daze or something weird (Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils).

Round 4 Merfolk (1-2)
I get paired down since there were 3 people who were 3-0 and get my worst matchup. This right here is a good example of why I can't play TES, I don't have enought luck. I have to play a combo deck with Top to fight through the bullshit and force a win out.

g1: Mull to 6. Turn 3 Duress reveals nothing and I build (Meditate, LED, LED, Petal, BW).
g2: Mull to 5. Apparently I don't play lands and don't draw relevant cards.
g3: Mull to 5. Lands again .... wtf. Turn 1 Top reveals NOTHING. Turn 3 Brainstorm whiffs ... everything just went wrong. Naturally my opponents never have to mull and the deck curves out with double Cursecatcher, Lord and Daze, Pierce, and 2 other cards in hand ... I try to combo off but have no chance. He counters the fuck out of my DRit and ... nothing else. This is the level of luck I have, explains why TES does not work for me.

Round 5 - Painter
ID
Another of my buddies and we have a great chance of making top 8 but neither of us much care nor do we want to knock eachother out.

Top 8
Split between everyone, there is a tornado coming in Atlanta and everyone wants to leave. I left, but it is not in my nature to go home in times of crisis, fuck no, I went with a few buddies to the bar for $5 buckets. If a tornado hits, I certainly better be in a place with some damn beers.

I use my new store credit for 3x Abeyances just because they may spike because everyone is shitting their pants about Mental Misstep and I hope they may spike, but it would also be nice to have some. All things being said, I have seriously been giving City of Solitude some thought. Here is why I like it so much, it turns off counters sure ... BUT it turns off Wasteland and Karakas as well. So if you want to play Cloud of Faeries and build an Emrakul stack, this cards turns BOTH of them off. The problem though is that your opponent can still slow roll the Karakas and you just deck yourself. But, I think it really may have merit since it also answers CB by turning off Top and whatever Brainstorm shenanigans your opponent may do. Now I am not saying its good because I have not tested it .... at all. But I like the concept of Abeyance and City simply because of what they enable.

The more I think about it the more I like it, because you still get in a swing with Emrakul and if you build this pile: SI, Emrakul, Top, LED, Burning Wish and if you have 2ish lands in play ... its an auto win regardless of whether they bounce Emrakul or not. City of Solitude could make Cloud of Faeries good and maybe playing a singleton Stifle/Trickbind in the board could be worth it. I am just trying to throw out some discussion here because, for some reason I totally forgot both these cards turn off activated abilities. If MM turns out to be stupid good against combo (which I highly doubt) then we need to find relevant answers to it. And the more I started to think about City of Solitude the more I liked it. Again, this is all in theory, but I am really intrigued at the possibilities of playing this card. The main problem I see is that I have to go to a UBg build to maintain a semi-positive Stax/Stompy matchup and I am not ready to give up on Burning Wish any time soon ... its just 2 good. City of Solitude and Abeyance are certainly some food for thought though.

I have been thinking about city of solitude and chants as well but I don't know if the mana base can handle it because I am also unwilling to drop the burning wishes they are too good.

One way would be to go for more rainbowlands but that would mean less number of fetch lands for suffle effects so it might hurt the deck.

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Originally Posted by Scopeye

I have been thinking about city of solitude (...)

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seriously?! Most of the time you´re playing 10 fecthlands and 4 SDT. Wouldn´t that slow you down way to much?

What do you guys think about relegating the Emrakul-Shelldock combo to the board. I found during my very basic preliminary testing and goldfishing that I only seem to want it against Counterbalance, and is only used in desperate measures elsewise. Am I doing something wrong here? When do you guys find yourselves most using that pile?

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Originally Posted by PunkRocker1134

What do you guys think about relegating the Emrakul-Shelldock combo to the board. I found during my very basic preliminary testing and goldfishing that I only seem to want it against Counterbalance, and is only used in desperate measures elsewise. Am I doing something wrong here? When do you guys find yourselves most using that pile?

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It's only in my board. Although honestly I'm more in the thought of wanting it main... mainly to free up more SB slots and make g1 vs Cbalance better.

It's understandable not to want it main though... drawing Emrakul is probably the weakest thing the deck can do.

Leegoo going from Pulp's list, what would you main over it? I feel like one more Tutor and ponder would be best.

@ Punk

Mine is the German list with a bit of a changed manabase (still not 100% on whether running the non-blue fetches and basic swamp is worth it or not... it's been relevant a couple of times in testing)

Main Deck:

4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Doomsday
3 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Meditate
4 Orim's Chant
4 Ponder
1 Rain of Filth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Echoing Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
4 Xantid Swarm

I'm not necessarily advocating this list over the versions with Burning Wish, as wish makes getting lethal storm a lot easier and gives you plenty of action (although this deck isn't necessarily lacking action cards like U/B ANT is) I do like having a "full" sideboard to work with though... personal preference. Although sometimes just making 10 goblins is REALLY good.

Also been going back and forth on the number of chants/silence. Hasn't really mattered yet in testing so I'd say if you don't have chants there's not much incentive to buy them.

My current list is almost the same as leegoo, but I'm not playing white, so:

-3 Orim's Chant
-1 Ponder
+4 Thoughtseize
- Bayou, Scrubland, Tundra
+ Island, Swamp, Underground

My sideboard looks like:

4 Xantid Swarm
2 Deathmark
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Bayou
2 Spell Pierce
1 Llawan
1 Shelldock
1 Emrakul

Are there any advantages to keeping the deck UB instead of splashing the third color?

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Originally Posted by Namida

Are there any advantages to keeping the deck UB instead of splashing the third color?

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resilience to wasteland

Chant effects make IGG much better though.

IMOP there is really no point in not playing a third color and each has its merits. Resilience to Wasteland is good but ... all you really need it 2 basics to be good in the Stompy/Stax matchups. The added mana consistency does not make up for the loss of white (Chant effects and Disenchants), green (Swarm, Grip, Reverent Silence), or red (Burning Wish, EtW, Meltdown). Three colors is right where u want to be with DDFT. 4 Is pushing it and you will be capable of pulling off 2 basics but ... I hate mulligans due to opening lands I can't use in 4c builds; so I stick with 3 for consistency issues and overall utility.

Do you guys find Fish to be a terrible match? I can't seem to consistently beat it. Any tips? Another more specific question, when you thoughtseize do you usually grab a Lord or countermagic? What if you have discard spell? Or they have multiple counterspells? I feel like Fish is going to be big in Providence and was hoping to play this if I went. Any matchup advice would be great.

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Originally Posted by PunkRocker1134

Do you guys find Fish to be a terrible match? I can't seem to consistently beat it. Any tips? Another more specific question, when you thoughtseize do you usually grab a Lord or countermagic? What if you have discard spell? Or they have multiple counterspells? I feel like Fish is going to be big in Providence and was hoping to play this if I went. Any matchup advice would be great.

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If you play the german list, you are favored against Merfolk. Preboard they only have Daze, Cursecatcher and Force of Will. Every landdrop you make, makes their Daze/Cursecatcher worse. You got 4 Chants and 3 Duress to prevent them from interrupting you, so you should be able to win preboard. Postboard you bring in 3 Carpet of Flowers and 4 Xantid Swarm, for 4 Chant, 2 Cabal Rituals and 1 Chain of Vapor. Now you got eleven cards (4 SDT, 4 Swarm and 3 Carpet), which come down on turn 1, which they need to force, or else they are very likely to lose the game. They have no library manipulation at all, so Duress is a great play against them when going off. That might change with New Phyrexia in the format, but until then you have a great matchup against them postboard, because Swarm and Carpet turns off all their Spell Pierce's and Daze's.

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Originally Posted by flrn

If you play the german list, you are favored against Merfolk. Preboard they only have Daze, Cursecatcher and Force of Will. Every landdrop you make, makes their Daze/Cursecatcher worse. You got 4 Chants and 3 Duress to prevent them from interrupting you, so you should be able to win preboard. Postboard you bring in 3 Carpet of Flowers and 4 Xantid Swarm, for 4 Chant, 2 Cabal Rituals and 1 Chain of Vapor. Now you got eleven cards (4 SDT, 4 Swarm and 3 Carpet), which come down on turn 1, which they need to force, or else they are very likely to lose the game. They have no library manipulation at all, so Duress is a great play against them when going off. That might change with New Phyrexia in the format, but until then you have a great matchup against them postboard, because Swarm and Carpet turns off all their Spell Pierce's and Daze's.

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Whit MM these consideration will not change radically ?
I'm really worried about MM...

While it is true that MM counters a lot of usefull card including all 12 protection spells there's some things you have to consider:

- MM needs slots thus they either have to cut business or more likely Dazes/Spellpierces
- with Daze gone the total number of disruption they run hasn't changed, although improved somewhat

MM also is more or less useless on the comboturn, countering cantrips and Tops countered is way more disruptive than hoping for the comboplayer to just go off unprotected. This however is where general ignorance comes into play.

If played correctly MM will be a pain in the ass, aka Daze without the tempoloss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jjjoness'

MM also is more or less useless on the comboturn, countering cantrips and Tops countered is way more disruptive than hoping for the comboplayer to just go off unprotected. This however is where general ignorance comes into play.

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Probably i'm ignorant, but I do not understand why MM would be useless in the comboturn, if you want to use a Doomsday pile to go off Top it's essential... MM on Top coud be problematic if you doesn't play an Orim's Chant or something like that...

To be honest, the question about colors was a concern on budget. I try not to muddy up conversation about things like that, but we can't seem to shut up about MM, so I figure now as good a time as any to throw this in here. I haven't seen a straight UB list for a while on the site, so I was wondering why someone would play UB over w for Chant, which is my lord and savior. I've been practicing with various lists on the various pages from this thread, and Chant is SO good, but I don't have the money to play white yet. Long story short--I don't own Chants, and I don't any lands with Blue in them other than one Volcanic Island, and I only just got the money to get the Underground Seas and Deltas. So when I finally actually get to play in events, I'm starting out with a Burning Wish Version or going straight UB with no green in the SB/playing Bayou instead of Tropical Island, which I can tell is pretty poor. Everyone plays Tropical Island because you want to resolve Swarm/Carpet early, and you don't need black until you're comboing, right? Having to choose between t1 Swarm and being able to play cantrips in the next few turns seems like a bad decision to need to make.

In general, without Chant, I think I'd want to play Burning Wish because it does makes getting getting storm much easier, and the whole "This can win the game or stop you from losing" deal seems pretty good too. I've seen some lists that play only one Wish to put in piles. Is that really any good? I mean, it's less of a dead draw than Emrakul, and people are playing him, but Emrakul is more powerful when you use it than Burning Wish and its +1 storm, so I don't know.

The two UB versions in the thread that I have interest in are lists by emidln. One version has four LDV, and it seems like LDV completely disappeared from people's lists. Is there a reason no one is playing LDV anymore? It seems like a pretty powerful card. The other version is the version suggested for players trying to learn the deck (read: me). In particular, it's the most straightforward, and being able to side Ad Nauseam in seems like it'd be pretty powerful, especially when opponents don't expect it.

Is Emrakul any good at all when you're not playing against a lot of CB? I mean...Shelldock Isle sucks almost every time that it's not hiding Emrakul, and Emrakul is an evil bastard that makes me want to flip a table when I want to IT->LED-> IGG. On that note--when you cast IGG, and you discard Emrakul, you don't need to shuffle until IGG finishes resolving, right?

Could somebody tell me how the so called german list looks like ,please? I want to build DDFT myself but I'm kind of uninspired with which list I should start.

Hi, Im writing it for the second time, so it will be short. This is the basic list suggested by Emidln, found on page 71 where he explains some stuff:

4 Doomsday
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Wipe Away
SB: 1 Cloud of Faeries
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Ad Nauseam
SB: 2 Chrome Mox

This is the "German" list by Nemavera also from page 71:

Maindeck:
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Doomsday
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Orim's Chant
3 Duress
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reverent Silence
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Wipe Away
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn

And lastly Pulp fictions list from page 74:

4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
2x Infernal Tutor
3x Doomsday
3x Thoughtseize
1x IGG
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils
1x Ponder

3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
2x Scalded Tarn
2x Underground Sea
1x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Shelldock Isle

SB
1x Tendrils
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x Infernal Tutor

2x Wipe Away
2x Rebuild
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Thoughtseize
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Slaughter Pact

If I may suggest, start with ANT, learn everything you can, then play TES, then the basic list and only after that try the more complex lists. Also on MTGO MattiasNL has a lot of success with UBw list, he has really good videos about it here: http://www.mefeedia.com/feeds/247442/mattiasnl

Hi

I have been running the Burning wish version of this deck (basically the same BW list from above). I absoulety love how it can come up with answers from nowhere and can win from nowhere.

However, ı am having problems against Ant lists with 12 draw spells. They seem to be at least half or a full turn faster than the B.Wsih version. How do you guys fight against those?

It's awkward with the wish version because you lack chants. Your best bet is to duress them to buy some time. Or combo off before them as it is a race with that version. There isn't that much you can do to beat them with the wish version other than hoping they fizzle with ad nauseam if they go for it but if they IGG loop for the win or tutor chain there's nothing you can do. Mostly though just try to race it.

Thats why I play Mindbreak Trap so I can use Emrakul. With Top in play you can safely pass the turn building this: Trap, SI, Emrakul, LED, Burning Wish and if they don't go for it, just look w Top during your upkeep. But if you really are having problems just play a Sad Sac or Extract. Either of those OWN basically every ANT list. Extract is the nuts against them, but Sad Sac has multiple applications, mainly against TES and Reanimator.

So I've been testing Gitaxian Probe and its been nothing but amazing. Playing a UBr version with Ideas Unbound as my draw, having Probe makes IGG piles a bit cheaper while not losing storm like Wraith. Plus, its a free way to draw into a pile meaning that with top and probe you can make piles with no mana requirement.

How many probes do you run? I'm curious because I just cracked a foil japanese probe today. And with top in play it is pretty sweet I imagine because with probe in hand you go DDay building LED, IU, Dark Rit, IGG, tendrils and the requirements for the pile are to have one black floating for the dark rit after DD making the pile cost 4 black mana essentially. Only problem with probe? Paying 4 life after DDay is sometimes awkward so you might need a blue mana to hardcast it making the pile cost an additional. What does your list look like right now Jeff I'm interested.

Probe is also sweet for piles without IGG. Usually you just build with probe in hand and top in play LED, IU, LED, LED, Tendrils. Or if you just have an LED in play post DD you cast probe, sack it for UUU in response, draw IU, cast it, drawing LED LED probe. Cast LED's, cast probe, sack LED's in response for red and black cast burning wish get tendrils which assuming you cast a ritual to power out doomsday is exactly ten storm. Glad to hear good things about probe the card is pretty solid IMO since information is sometimes king in this deck especially at those moments where you have the nuts draw and you simply ask the question of "Do you have force of will?" and if they don't you just win.

The only problem I see with Probe (I need to test it) is:
1) If you're intending to peek for FoW/Wastelands to decide which DD piles you're making, you need to play Probe before building a pile because building a pile with Probe then storming up to win or Emrakul'ing doesn't really solve the decision tree on which piles to make. So either a list is playing enough Probes to go off before Doomsday or they are simply using Probe as a +1 draw, +1 storm count for 2 life (this is the strongest reason to play Probe, i.e. it's flexible in DD piles where you need an extra draw+Storm and could afford 2 life.

2) This probably won't happen too much but sometimes you will DD down to 1 life, and Probe becomes a dead card in your hand. This is not likely if you're just playing 1 Probe for DD piles, but will be more likely if people are experimenting lists with more Probes for the peek effect.

I'm on the boat on testing 1 Probe in the 60 because it opens up more piles. I.e. sometimes you cannot setup piles with Drits and you require LEDs due to initial mana requirements but yet you cannot utilize LEDs because you'll lose your hand in the wrong order when cracking LEDs to reach critical mana. Probe allows you to crack LED in succession, therefore opening more piles where you could not have utilized which require multiple LED cracking in succession.

So, after a lot of testing, the deck that I've decided on is straight UB. It's still a budget issue (I'd play UBw if I owned Flooded Strands or Tundra), but Lim-Dul's Vault is working out so much better for me than Burning Wish was.

The list I'm planning on is as follows:

4 Doomsday
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp

SB
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cloud of Faeries
2 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn

This is basically a list by emidln a few pages back, with a slightly different manabase (I don't own a third U.Sea), and Chain of Vapor main because I've definitely watched ANT lose to maindecked Gaddock Teeg at the place I'll be playing at.

I'm not entirely sure about my Sideboard yet, because It's basically cobbled up from what I could theorycraft and what I read from posts detailing sideboard advice. The reason is that I don't have much experience playing the deck against matches where I don't just destroy my opponent since they don't interact with me. I'm torn on Emrakul, Shelldock Isle, and Cloud of Faeries.

My area has a lot of tempo decks in it, and recall a comment about perhaps having Painter's Servant and Grindstone in the sideboard for an area with a lot of Team America in it. Could anyone elaborate on that a bit further? I'd be interested in taking out all of the Shelldock Isle stuff for it since CB decks aren't popular right now (though Misstep might make change that), and every deck seems to have Wasteland in it so siding the cards in seems strictly "to try to get away with it" instead of actually improving a matchup.

So I spend my classtime making up random puzzles with the deck so I can practice without actually playing. This one is pretty easy, but I'm curious if someone can come up with a solution that uses multiple DDay (mine didn't).

Hand: Brainstorm x2, Doomsdayx3, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual

Board: Sea, Delta, Island

Other info: Opponent has Force and Mental Misstep in their graveyard, and you know from a previous Duress that they have a single Zur's Weirding in hand.

My solution is Tendrils for 26, curious to see what other people do :)

Just cast DD and build an Emrakul stack, Brainstorm into it and play SI as your land for the turn ... why complicate things? All you have to do is build this and win: SI, Emrakul, Petal, Petal, Tendrils. Assuming the counter DRit, use ur Petal and get DD forced, next turn try it again possibly using another BS beforehand, I seriously doubt trying to bait MM with BS would work against anyone even semi-competent. I like just playing shit into their faces and forcing them to answer it or lose, Top is a good bait card but BS is not.

A while ago someone asked about a 4c manabase for the UBr BW list. I have finally found one after testing that I really like. I swapped the main around a little for 4x Thoughtseize and 2x Swarm (just to save room in the board so I can run 4 Swarm) and arrived at this:

4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x City of Brass
2x Sea
1x Volcanic
1x Badlands
1x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x SI

You have to lose the island since black is WAY more important which weakens the Dragon Stompy match a little but nothing else really suffers, especially against every deck running Wasteland Swarms pretty much come out anyway (Merfolk aside). So far this manabase has yet to leave me stranded and has been hella consistent.

Thanks Pulp. I felt the only true weakness in your list was the Merfolks matchup (which you mentioned yourself). I'll get to testing the 4c splash. I was testing REB slots previously but they are not good enough as counters against Merfolks (REB is still alright against CB/blue decks) but not as good as swarm.