All B/R update speculation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barook

You also forgot the good old

#withoutbrainstormbelcherwillmurderyou

Even without Brainstorm, blue decks would be more consistent than non-blue decks, but the spread would be alot closer, especially since brainstorming in response to everything like a trained monkey isn't an option anymore if all viable cantrips are sorceries. God forbid your turns actually take planning instead of just waiting on everything, just because you can.

---

God forbid Legacy isn't reduced to Portal with more powerful cards. Timing can't be important, that'll turn new players off of the format!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by btm10

God forbid Legacy isn't reduced to Portal with more powerful cards. Timing can't be important, that'll turn new players off of the format!

---

So banning Brainstorm would apparently make instant speed spells obsolete. Good to know.

#goplaymodernyoucant handletheskill

Such skill cap, Much decisions, Very intensive

Wow brainstorm

It's worth noting that without brainstorm, all hate against fast combo gets much worse. force of will gets harder to find, you now have to mull into it.

Harder to use too, you probably now need to increase blue count because brainstorm can no longer fix that. Actually, banning brainstorm makes all

matchup specific cards much worse now that i think of it, because now you can't count on finding them with any sort of real consistency, you have

to mull into them. This means that while stuff like zoo probably gets way better, it doesn't actually matter because stuff like TES, Elves, dredge even belcher

are insane in a world where you have to mull to find force or crypt or surgical or whatever like you had to mull to find leyline of sanctity. i think if you tested

this format, you'd find that two mana hate spells (rest in peace, meddling mage, ethersworn cannonist, stuff like that) are unplayable on the draw and that just

to find your crap you'd need upwards of 8 sideborard slots to devote to combo for each type of combo you try to fight.

It may not be hyperbole to say that brainstorm, more so even than force of will, is holding the format together.

If you want to insult each other, do it over PM.

Does anybody have the data on how Survival performed before its ban? The DTB databank has a 9 month hole for that time span, so that isn't exactly helpful to draw conclusions compared to Brainstorm/Delver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wordslinger

It's worth noting that without brainstorm, all hate against fast combo gets much worse. force of will gets harder to find, you now have to mull into it.

Harder to use too, you probably now need to increase blue count because brainstorm can no longer fix that. Actually, banning brainstorm makes all matchup specific cards much worse now that i think of it, because now you can't count on finding them with any sort of real consistency, you have to mull into them. This means that while stuff like zoo probably gets way better, it doesn't actually matter because stuff like TES, Elves, dredge even belcher are insane in a world here you have to mull to find force or crypt or surgical or whatever like you had to mull to find leyline of sanctity. i think if you tested this format, you'd find that two mana hate spells (rest in peace, meddling mage, ethersworn cannonist, stuff like that) are unplayable on the draw and that just to find your crap you'd need upwards of 8 sideborard slots to devote to combo for each type of combo you try to fight.

It may not be hyperbole to say that brainstorm, more so even than force of will, is holding the format together.

---

Quote:

---

#withoutbrainstormbelcherwillmurderyou

---

And here we are.

Would glass canon combo become better? Most likely, but it's hard to say if it would become a problem.

People have to mull into hate like non-blue decks? I fail to see a problem with that, since that's exactly part of the reason why blue is so dominant in the first place.

You still have cantrips to find your stuff, e.g. Ponder actually digs deeper than Brainstorm. You still have a 40% chance to have FoW in your opening hand and if they go for a T1 kill, Brainstorm isn't any better than any other cantrip on the draw. Said cantrips also feed FoW. What you can't just do anymore is Brainstorm to dig in response (which is part of the "skill vs non-skill" debate - imho, drawing everything on the fly actually lessens the required skill to play a deck and is comparable to the removal of combat damage on the stack which opened up more strategic decisions).

Brainstorm is essentially easy-mode in 95+% of all cases. Sure, there can be a skillful Brainstorm here and there like Reid Duke baiting with double Brainstorm yesterday, but that's the exception, not the rule.

If there's more combo, the format will adapt accordingly since there are enough tools already out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wordslinger

It's worth noting that without brainstorm, all hate against fast combo gets much worse. force of will gets harder to find, you now have to mull into it.

Harder to use too, you probably now need to increase blue count because brainstorm can no longer fix that. Actually, banning brainstorm makes all

matchup specific cards much worse now that i think of it, because now you can't count on finding them with any sort of real consistency, you have

to mull into them. This means that while stuff like zoo probably gets way better, it doesn't actually matter because stuff like TES, Elves, dredge even belcher

are insane in a world where you have to mull to find force or crypt or surgical or whatever like you had to mull to find leyline of sanctity. i think if you tested

this format, you'd find that two mana hate spells (rest in peace, meddling mage, ethersworn cannonist, stuff like that) are unplayable on the draw and that just

to find your crap you'd need upwards of 8 sideborard slots to devote to combo for each type of combo you try to fight.

It may not be hyperbole to say that brainstorm, more so even than force of will, is holding the format together.

---

You mean you can't jam 15 1-ofs into a sideboard and call it a day? Rest in Peace and Canonist seem to do perfectly fine from DnT's sideboard. Brainstorm doesn't help too much against Belcher et al. since those decks are pretty much turn 1 anyway. Storm and friends will also have a harder time going off without their premier cantrip that also protects them from discard.

Latest SCG Legacy Open.

Everything is FINE. Nothing to see here.

So much Delver....

I guess it's fine though. White won the event.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wordslinger

It's worth noting that without brainstorm, combo gets much worse.

---

FTFY.

All the blue decks (i.e. 90% of the format) are made to adapt. The delver decks, miracles and combo all lose the absurdity that is brainstorm plus shuffle. Being on the play versus belcher and getting to see 3 more cards in response to their winning spell isn't keeping belcher in check. It's

A) belcher is wholy unsatisfying to a massive segment of players
B) raw dogging force
C) losing the die roll and getting point discarded, spell pierced etc.
D) mulligans

I will say that without Brainstorm, Thoughtseize becomes much better. But is that even really a bad thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Megadeus

I will say that without Brainstorm, Thoughtseize becomes much better. But is that even really a bad thing?

---

So discard is as good as it was meant to be? Thank the lord.

I'd feel better about blue if I had instant speed discard. Brainstorm? Response, Thoughtseize you.

-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sdematt

So discard is as good as it was meant to be? Thank the lord.

I'd feel better about blue if I had instant speed discard. Brainstorm? Response, Thoughtseize you.

-Matt

---

You do, it's blue and a 3/1 flier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wordslinger

It's worth noting that without brainstorm, all hate against fast combo gets much worse. force of will gets harder to find, you now have to mull into it.

Harder to use too, you probably now need to increase blue count because brainstorm can no longer fix that. Actually, banning brainstorm makes all

matchup specific cards much worse now that i think of it, because now you can't count on finding them with any sort of real consistency, you have

to mull into them. This means that while stuff like zoo probably gets way better, it doesn't actually matter because stuff like TES, Elves, dredge even belcher

are insane in a world where you have to mull to find force or crypt or surgical or whatever like you had to mull to find leyline of sanctity. i think if you tested

this format, you'd find that two mana hate spells (rest in peace, meddling mage, ethersworn cannonist, stuff like that) are unplayable on the draw and that just

to find your crap you'd need upwards of 8 sideborard slots to devote to combo for each type of combo you try to fight.

It may not be hyperbole to say that brainstorm, more so even than force of will, is holding the format together.

---

Total nonsense. You still have Ponder or Preordain to draw into protections or solutions in control decks post-Brainstorm, but combo decks lose the ability to switch additional combo-pieces for more gas or protection. A Brainstorm-Ban would throw back combo decks to the late 90's in terms of consistancy and would make decks like SneakShow unplayable junk, while the Delver-decks will barely notice the difference if combo is struggling with itself.

You people still at it with the Brainstorm-discussion..? Lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

You people still at it with the Brainstorm-discussion..? Lol.

---

Of course we are. Because people are too lazy to look up the last 5 pages in any thread and come up with the ever same topics with the same shallow and dumb arguments.

It was inevitable that the discussion came back to Brainstorm after a SCG T16 was full of the "T1, Delver, go!" Legacy monkey Training Wheel as we had the same with "S&T, Griselbrand", "EoT, Brainstorm, drawstep, Terminus!" or countless other dominant blue strategies in the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

make decks like SneakShow unplayable junk

---

This does not sound like a bad thing at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zombie

This does not sound like a bad thing at all.

---

It's not just SneakShow, but all blue based combo decks. If you erase those decks from the metagame, you'll likely have only Belcher as a viable form of pure combo left, leading to an even more creature-centric Format in which T1 Ponder for FoW (against Belcher or bigger threats of your opponent) and then only slamming creatures and removal describes a whole game. The whole aspect of counterspells is pretty pointless if you push out Combo decks imo

If your going to point to blue based tempo being king and calling for a ban, pick a target that is unique to tempo, not something that's broadly played across a wide range of decks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dice_Box

If your going to point to blue based tempo being king and calling for a ban, pick a target that is unique to tempo, not something that's broadly played across a wide range of decks.

---

So keep Necro? I'm okay with that.