[Deck] The Rock

@Mr Safety thanks for digging that up! It looks like overall positive reviews. Ill give her a whirl in about a month to see

I think the real question is, is she maindeck worthy?.


@Claymore I originally had 2 Sylvan Libraries because theyre just straight gas. However, I ran into Leovold EVERYWHERE so I decided to cut a Library for a Guile to still get the card selection that the deck needs since it doesnt run Brainstorm. Its been pretty good but I feel like going down on a card might not be the best idea. Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, Top all had the ability to replace itself while Guile does not. Im considering swapping it for a Last Hope (which at minimum brings a creature back) but Ill test it after the Modern GP.

I think her first ability is very good against small creatures, boosting loyalty while pinging off small dudes, or even just protecting her, is great. Her second ability is very good at grinding out fair matchups. Her ultimate doesn't really come into the picture really (got an extra zombie cuz of Tidehollow Sculler! lol...)

I think you'd want a minimum of 20 creatures in order to maindeck her, even x1. You don't want to miss on her ability and you don't have a way to take advantage of the self-mill (Lingering Souls maybe.)

My vote is sideboard, just too matchup-dependent.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I think her first ability is very good against small creatures, boosting loyalty while pinging off small dudes, or even just protecting her, is great. Her second ability is very good at grinding out fair matchups. Her ultimate doesn't really come into the picture really (got an extra zombie cuz of Tidehollow Sculler! lol...)

I think you'd want a minimum of 20 creatures in order to maindeck her, even x1. You don't want to miss on her ability and you don't have a way to take advantage of the self-mill (Lingering Souls maybe.)

My vote is sideboard, just too matchup-dependent.

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For reference, I run her as a 3-of in a deck with 3 Snapcasters and she's still gas. Try her before you diss her. That -2/-1 is worth money. As in, 3 Snapcasters ONLY.

She's solid, I like her more than Veil tbh. I'd run 2 Veil/2 Last Hope if I was in on running her.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

For reference, I run her as a 3-of in a deck with 3 Snapcasters and she's still gas. Try her before you diss her. That -2/-1 is worth money. As in, 3 Snapcasters ONLY.

She's solid, I like her more than Veil tbh. I'd run 2 Veil/2 Last Hope if I was in on running her.

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Good feedback...I hadn't heard a case for such strong efficacy. Is it the 2nd ability that feeds Snapcaster mage what makes her good? I can see obvious implications of 1/2 of a Thought Scour + Disentomb along with Snapcaster. Returning Snapcaster to hand is obviously incredible, but that doesn't answer whether it's good in the Rock. Obvious synergy is obvious.

I'd want to go all Shriekmaw and Fleshbag Marauder on that shit though, for realz...

I think he's just saying that so much of the field is x/1 that the repeatable mana-less removal (along side his real removal suite) makes her practically a lock. Note: He's running SCM as his only creature so you know he's packing a load of removal and following it with Jace; so YMMV on efficacy.

In his deck, she's an almost Punishing Fire equivalent where you'll want to make sure your removal suite is pretty full before banking on her. Also, since he's running Veil and counterspells, he's in a good spot for TNN where as you'll need to discard it, run -x/-x effects, still run Veil anyway, or pretend it doesn't exist instead.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I think he's just saying that so much of the field is x/1 that the repeatable mana-less removal (along side his real removal suite) makes her practically a lock. Note: He's running SCM as his only creature so you know he's packing a load of removal and following it with Jace; so YMMV on efficacy.

In his deck, she's an almost Punishing Fire equivalent where you'll want to make sure your removal suite is pretty full before banking on her. Also, since he's running Veil and counterspells, he's in a good spot for TNN where as you'll need to discard it, run -x/-x effects, still run Veil anyway, or pretend it doesn't exist instead.

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The deck also runs 2 Deed and 2 Deluge to clean up; 3 Push 2 Decay, 2 Edict.

Point being, I think she's good enough repeatable removal that goes into an ultimate, the second ability is almost just a bonus.

Wow, a lot of inactivity. Lets bump this thread up.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

Here is my current 75. I recently cut Mirri's Guile for the 3rd Veil. Guile was nice, but at the end of the day, I think that slot needed to provide actual card advantage over card selection. I often found myself just not having enough gas even through topping every turn.

I currently have the 3rd veil but contemplating having Last Hope instead (which Im not 100% sold on yet). Ill probably start testing it now (been focusing on modern for the past GP).

Im also considering cutting the Choke from the board. With Miracles gone, Choke hitting the fair blue decks just doesnt seem impactful enough. Im considering resleeving up my ole friend Garruk Relentless or if Im feeling ambitious, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Garruk is easier to cast (Single G vs WW) so im leaning towards him.

Any thoughts on these changes?

Been lurking for a while, figured I'd make an account.

Most of the time, I don't like 4cc cards in my legacy decks. At 3cc, I expect them to win me the game. 4 should make me breakfast too.
I don't think other Liliana, Gideon, or Garruk can do those. What about the 4th Bob though?

I'm also curious, since you're heavy in discard, is there a lot of combo in your area? If so, why no Lost Legacy? That card's been crazy good in games that I open shaman because I don't have a T1 discard.

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Originally Posted by WaitWhat

Been lurking for a while, figured I'd make an account.

Most of the time, I don't like 4cc cards in my legacy decks. At 3cc, I expect them to win me the game. 4 should make me breakfast too.
I don't think other Liliana, Gideon, or Garruk can do those. What about the 4th Bob though?

I'm also curious, since you're heavy in discard, is there a lot of combo in your area? If so, why no Lost Legacy? That card's been crazy good in games that I open shaman because I don't have a T1 discard.

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Appreciate your input!

1) I feel the same way about the 4cmc. However, its in the sideboard for a reason. Itll only come in grindy games where 4 mana is indeed inevitable. And to be fair, all those walkers definitely win the game. A resolved planeswalker is insane.

2) Im not a fan of Lost Legacy for 2 reasons. 3 mana is way too slow. You need your interaction to be 1 mana, AT MOST 2. Sure, its great on T2 via DRS but Id want my sideboard cards to be heavyhitting on their own without any help. Second, a lot of the combo decks arent all in on one plan. Storm has tendrils and a fair empty plan. Sneak and show has two interchangable pieces of their 2 card combo. Cant hit Lands for stage depths. Too much to name vs elves. Id honestly rather go for the 4th Hymn if I wanted a discard effect.

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Originally Posted by KoDiamonds

Wow, a lot of inactivity. Lets bump this thread up.

Im also considering cutting the Choke from the board. With Miracles gone, Choke hitting the fair blue decks just doesnt seem impactful enough. Im considering resleeving up my ole friend Garruk Relentless or if Im feeling ambitious, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Garruk is easier to cast (Single G vs WW) so im leaning towards him.

Any thoughts on these changes?

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I support no Choke. I live and die in legacy on BGx decks and this is the first time I feel that Choke just isn't worth slots. It's ok in the Miracles matchup, but doesn't do enough really. I feel that boarding it against Delver/Czech pile is a trap, they just have too many ways to get in under it or deal with it once it lands. I'd rather add another Deluge, or even play something like Golgari Charm/Pithing Needle for some flexibility. Honestly, even Wasteland is kind of iffy in a 3-color deck (I noticed you are only playing 3.) It works great if you start on DRS > disruption > Wasteland, then Bob/Library draw you into Wastelands. It's the nuts, but it has to fall in line fairly perfectly. Otherwise I think it's just more important to play your high-value spells. If you're inclined to play 4x Wasteland I would want at least 1x Vindicate as well, just because once you're committed to killing lands for tempo it gets better. Not saying to do that, just how I would play it if I were dedicated to 4x Wasteland.

I also support beefier threats in the sideboard for grindier matchups. Garruk Relentless is very good against the slower decks of the format, and provides some really great inevitability alongside Lingering Souls. Gideon is alright, but it doesn't provide the same flexibility. Garruk makes a 2/2 or it can deal with something like a Young Pyromancer, then flip immediately. I also feel Bitterblossom wouldn't be a bad idea in the sideboard for grindy matchups. I also really like making room for another Library, main or side. I always felt my best chances of winning grindy matchups with this deck was with Library and Souls.

Not sure how many stompy variants you face, but I feel like Pernicious Deed is worth a slot in the board for those matchups specifically. It gets by Chalice/Trinisphere and then takes all that work they put into locking you right down the drain. Slow, but in those matchups (with the exception of Eldrazi) you usually have at least a few turns where they just pass and do nothing without pressure.

With the format being on the 'fair' side lately, I think this deck is positioned well.

I have mixed feelings on Choke. While Miracles is less of a problem (theoretically how the meta is shifting), competitive stuff in the deeper rounds of a tournament tend to have blue. Let’s also not detract from the grit of a real match: answer choke or have trouble playing literally anything else. Sure, Czech could have decay. Miracles could burn their Judgement on it. But unless they actually have those cards in hand, you have a bomb for 3 mana that distorts the matchup in your favor.
If choke still isn’t your thing, think about Thalia 2.0. Holy shit that card is backbreaking and never expected. W2 is definitely playable on the manabase. For better or worse she has legs. Acts as a pseudo choke against greedy manabases (as opposed to just islands). She also taps down opposing creatures so racing towards the finish should be better.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I support no Choke. I live and die in legacy on BGx decks and this is the first time I feel that Choke just isn't worth slots. It's ok in the Miracles matchup, but doesn't do enough really. I feel that boarding it against Delver/Czech pile is a trap, they just have too many ways to get in under it or deal with it once it lands. I'd rather add another Deluge, or even play something like Golgari Charm/Pithing Needle for some flexibility. Honestly, even Wasteland is kind of iffy in a 3-color deck (I noticed you are only playing 3.) It works great if you start on DRS > disruption > Wasteland, then Bob/Library draw you into Wastelands. It's the nuts, but it has to fall in line fairly perfectly. Otherwise I think it's just more important to play your high-value spells. If you're inclined to play 4x Wasteland I would want at least 1x Vindicate as well, just because once you're committed to killing lands for tempo it gets better. Not saying to do that, just how I would play it if I were dedicated to 4x Wasteland.

I also support beefier threats in the sideboard for grindier matchups. Garruk Relentless is very good against the slower decks of the format, and provides some really great inevitability alongside Lingering Souls. Gideon is alright, but it doesn't provide the same flexibility. Garruk makes a 2/2 or it can deal with something like a Young Pyromancer, then flip immediately. I also feel Bitterblossom wouldn't be a bad idea in the sideboard for grindy matchups. I also really like making room for another Library, main or side. I always felt my best chances of winning grindy matchups with this deck was with Library and Souls.

Not sure how many stompy variants you face, but I feel like Pernicious Deed is worth a slot in the board for those matchups specifically. It gets by Chalice/Trinisphere and then takes all that work they put into locking you right down the drain. Slow, but in those matchups (with the exception of Eldrazi) you usually have at least a few turns where they just pass and do nothing without pressure.

With the format being on the 'fair' side lately, I think this deck is positioned well.

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I agree with everything here except for the argument for Garruk/Gideon. I've found those cards to be really mediocre in almost every matchup that you want them for. If anything i'd recommend doubling up on Liliana, the Last Hope. She's a card that you can bring in both against delver as a removal spell/life gainer and against midrange/control as a way to kill strixes and threaten to end the game with her ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Warden

If choke still isn’t your thing, think about Thalia 2.0. Holy shit that card is backbreaking and never expected. W2 is definitely playable on the manabase. For better or worse she has legs. Acts as a pseudo choke against greedy manabases (as opposed to just islands). She also taps down opposing creatures so racing towards the finish should be better.

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Despite what nic fit players think, it's actually pretty reasonable to not play bad cards in rock decks.

Love the discussion guys.

Choke: I agree, ever since Miracles lost Top, Choke is so much less effective. Very much a trap card vs Czech Pile. I feel like our heavyhitting sideboard cards definitely need to impact the board, not get cute and try to get free wins (which dropped dramatically with Choke once Top got banned). I definitely think that slot should go along with our gameplan of card advantage/board presence.

Garruk: How has he been performing for everyone? I had him pre--Top ban and was stellar vs Miracles. Now however, he seems great and bad at the same time. 4 mana is a lot vs Death and Taxes. Although, killing a Thalia and churning out deathtouchers seems insane. Grixis Delver seems slow but when it gets to a grindy, it seems amazing. Seems solid vs Czech Pile. Am I correct with this assessment? What other matchups do you board it in?

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

I agree with everything here except for the argument for Garruk/Gideon. I've found those cards to be really mediocre in almost every matchup that you want them for. If anything i'd recommend doubling up on Liliana, the Last Hope. She's a card that you can bring in both against delver as a removal spell/life gainer and against midrange/control as a way to kill strixes and threaten to end the game with her ultimate.

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I wouldn't board more than 1 Garruk, and I wouldn't use Gideon at all. In the mid-range matchups I think the repeatable effect of making threats is really good. It's been a while since I tried Garruk, maybe it's not as good anymore. I agree that Liliana TLH is likely just better, simply based on mana efficiency. Ticking up while killing stuff is really nice. If I wasn't clear, I think the best option is to deeper into more copies of Library. The individual cards this deck plays are so good on their own that just getting more of them with Bob/Library seems correct.

EDIT: I actually really liked Treetop Village against Miracles when Top was legal. It was hard for them to always hold up Swords/Terminus for the land after having to pop them off for Goyf/Bob/Souls. The risk is pretty low if you only play 1-2 copies. More Libraries helps you find them. Yes they bring in Blood Moon, but it seems like Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse/discard can usually deal with that along with fetching basics.

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Despite what nic fit players think, it's actually pretty reasonable to not play bad cards in rock decks.

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Was this in reference to Thalia, Heretic Cathar?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I wouldn't board more than 1 Garruk, and I wouldn't use Gideon at all. In the mid-range matchups I think the repeatable effect of making threats is really good. It's been a while since I tried Garruk, maybe it's not as good anymore. I agree that Liliana TLH is likely just better, simply based on mana efficiency. Ticking up while killing stuff is really nice. If I wasn't clear, I think the best option is to deeper into more copies of Library. The individual cards this deck plays are so good on their own that just getting more of them with Bob/Library seems correct.

EDIT: I actually really liked Treetop Village against Miracles when Top was legal. It was hard for them to always hold up Swords/Terminus for the land after having to pop them off for Goyf/Bob/Souls. The risk is pretty low if you only play 1-2 copies. More Libraries helps you find them. Yes they bring in Blood Moon, but it seems like Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse/discard can usually deal with that along with fetching basics.

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For sure, I was just giving my personal opinion on Garruk/Gideon. I have this very bad tendency to use my Garruk extremely aggressively, and I think that is why I don't like him that much. I've been kind of mixed on village, I like it in a pure BG deck but I think that with Junk the manabase gets a little wonky. You absolutely need a maindeck hard answer to JTMS like vindicate or pulse.

What does your list look like now?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Was this in reference to Thalia, Heretic Cathar?

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Yes

I haven't played the deck in months, but if I sleeved it up now (and I might, I have a tournament coming up in February) I would play this 75:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Stoneforge Mystic

3x Thoughtseize
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sylvan Library
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Vindicate
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
3x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
1x Karakas
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pithing Needle

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

...Despite what nic fit players think, it's actually pretty reasonable to not play bad cards in rock decks.

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There's really no need for this kind of tone. I've played Maverick and Rock for years. Test the recommendation before you knock it.

I finally looked at Thalia, HC...I don't think she's anywhere near powerful enough for this deck. In light of Tarmogoyf sometimes being the *worst* creature, this card has no real advantage that it offers. Having things EtB tapped is great for tempo, but rock is at heart a midrange deck. We can play the tempo game but we can also play the midrange value plan and more often do.

I've been thinking about splashing Mom in here again...the metagame is really fair ATM and Mom busts fair matchups open. This was my theoretical list before I got distracted with other projects:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
usual stuff


Alternatively I was thinking of going uber tempo and play Sinkholes.

4x DRS
4x Bob
4x Tarmogoyf

3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Vindicate
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

4x Wasteland
7x Fetch
4x Duals
4x Basic
3x utility lands

It doesn't seem bad, but it could also be terrible in the current metagame. I want to splash Mana Tithe so badly, the jank-loving spirit is strong...

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I finally looked at Thalia, HC...I don't think she's anywhere near powerful enough for this deck. In light of Tarmogoyf sometimes being the *worst* creature, this card has no real advantage that it offers. Having things EtB tapped is great for tempo, but rock is at heart a midrange deck. We can play the tempo game but we can also play the midrange value plan and more often do.

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This is exactly the problem with THC. If we're comparing her with creatures in that slot, she's just worse than any of the playable "creatures" in that spot. Knight is a creature that can equally punish manabases, allows you to run a land toolbox and eventually turns into a giant beater. Lingering souls is basically 2 cards in 1 and allows you to commit to the board while still having a backup plan. Minus some extremely fringe metagame cases I don't think any of the older rock staples are playable anymore. The basic point is that you want 3+ drops to get more powerful as the game goes on, not less.

i think you have the ask the question, what problem is this creature slot trying to solve?