[Deck] GW/x Maverick

just 1 more thought about the flash-deck you are testing MysteryE... dread of night will kill half of this deck because of the many x/1`s :cry:

Only Mother and Thalia/Aven Mindcensor (7 or 8 out of 23-25), unless I'm missing something. Not a massive impact. Plus it runs plenty of enchantment hate with Pridemade, GSZ and board cards.

Last night I bought the rest of the shit I needed for the deck and played Maverick. Here was my starting list:

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mom
2 Stoneforge
3 Thalia 1.0
2 Thalia 2.0
1 Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Abrupt Decay
4 GSZ
4 StP
1 Sylvan Library

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Stage

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 Loam
1 K Grip
1 Choke
2 Duress
2 Surgical
1 Needle
1 Bog
1 Maze

Went 2-2, beating Miracles and UB Hedron Crab Mill, losing to BUG TNN and Miracles.

The maindeck felt strong, though I might go -1 StP and +1 Decay. However, I wanted some advice from you guys on the board:
- The one time I drew Nissa, she got stuck in my hand by a Teeg. I was thinking of switching her for either a 2nd Choke or a Painful Truths. Any tips?
- Almost every list I've seen has 2 Zealous Persecution in the board. What is it usually there for? Elves, DnT, and True Name are the decks that occur to me, but does it have applications outside of matchups with lots of X/1 creatures?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aspsnake

I see why the Miracles topic is being brought up again and again.

However, if you want to beat Miracles, I think Doomrabbit's list (he shared it some pages ago) is nearly best you could do. Really, all you need is a Sylvan Library, 2 Chokes, Surgical Extraction, Garruk, B/W sword in your 75, extra Gaddock Teegs in sb and some luck.

---

[Deleted Flames]. Be nice - Julian23

Look at the finishes Maverick has had recently. You cannot beat miracles with a stock list and a little extra help. Maverick is a massive underdog and as soon as you understand this maybe we can try and improve the deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuart

Last night I bought the rest of the shit I needed for the deck and played Maverick. Here was my starting list:

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite
1 Scryb Ranger
4 Mom
2 Stoneforge
3 Thalia 1.0
2 Thalia 2.0
1 Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Abrupt Decay
4 GSZ
4 StP
1 Sylvan Library

2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Stage

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 Loam
1 K Grip
1 Choke
2 Duress
2 Surgical
1 Needle
1 Bog
1 Maze

Went 2-2, beating Miracles and UB Hedron Crab Mill, losing to BUG TNN and Miracles.

The maindeck felt strong, though I might go -1 StP and +1 Decay. However, I wanted some advice from you guys on the board:
- The one time I drew Nissa, she got stuck in my hand by a Teeg. I was thinking of switching her for either a 2nd Choke or a Painful Truths. Any tips?
- Almost every list I've seen has 2 Zealous Persecution in the board. What is it usually there for? Elves, DnT, and True Name are the decks that occur to me, but does it have applications outside of matchups with lots of X/1 creatures?

---

Everyone post their decklist and wants advice. I rarely ever play Maverick on MTGO and when I do I do very well. I feel my maindeck is great and what everyone should be playing. IMO you shouldn't be playing new Thalia and shouldn't cut swords to plowshare. ZP is mainly for TNN but also needed against elves and d and t. I advise to run 2 and not cut it.


https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/DNEELEY

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NEELEY

Everyone post their decklist and wants advice. I rarely ever play Maverick on MTGO and when I do I do very well. I feel my maindeck is great and what everyone should be playing. IMO you shouldn't be playing new Thalia and shouldn't cut swords to plowshare. ZP is mainly for TNN but also needed against elves and d and t. I advise to run 2 and not cut it.


https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/DNEELEY

---

I like your list a lot. MD looks quite lean with no BS. How was orb? Besides miracles what matchups are you brining it in?

Anyone else going to SCG Worchester?

Cheers Neeley! Your list looks great. I think I'll try
- In the mainboard, -2 THC, +1 Original Thalia, +1 Scooze.
- In the sideboard, -1 Scooze, -1 Nissa, +2 Zealous Persecution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunderknight

Anyone else going to SCG Worchester?

---

I will go, if I get this deck smoothed out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

I like your list a lot. MD looks quite lean with no BS. How was orb? Besides miracles what matchups are you brining it in?

---

The orbs are more for testing and are strictly for miracles, but have utility against the loam decks. The orbs have been eating counters or wear//tear but that's okay when you have chokes and sylvan libraries as well, maybe a 2nd dryad arbor would be a good choice in one of those slots to fuel your equipments, seems like a 2nd one would be backbreaking at times for them.

My main deck is very lean and don't normally change anything and am very happy with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuart

Cheers Neeley! Your list looks great. I think I'll try
- In the mainboard, -2 THC, +1 Original Thalia, +1 Scooze.
- In the sideboard, -1 Scooze, -1 Nissa, +2 Zealous Persecution.

---

Let me know what you think. If you have any questions on a match up or 2 let me know and I'll give my sb strategy or play strategy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I just finished this post and as I realize that I was slightly annoyed at the beginning, I feel like the post is helpful in our current state. I have been getting a lot of responses to the notion that Maverick can beat Terminus in its current form which is followed by a post that started this response. Her is the post and the response...



I really am not sure where you are coming from, but seeing how you apologized in advance I will assume that you just jumped into the thread for funsies. Ill catch you up with some posts that happened after you decided to join us. Starting with an intelligent response to my premise.



This response here shows that people do not know what we can do against miracles. Which is in contradiction to the response from a page ago that read:



So now continuing to Maverick players trying to discuss ways to beat Miracles:



This is a good comment about possible sideboard cards. Which is followed by this post:



This response has no meaning whatsoever, you start by listing sideboard plans that no-one has ever done i.e. cloudpost sideboard, include a popular Maverick beater pre-Monastery Mentor, Thrun, and then say that there is really nothing we can do if they draw the cards that they need to draw and considering that they have the most consistent deck in the format, they will most likely draw the answers that they need. Note: if you try and google to find a Maverick list with a Cloud-post board, this thread is the only mention I could find.

This is followed by confusion about the cloud-post sideboard and then more agreement that the Miracles match-up is terrible.



Here is Megadeus stating the exact point that I am trying to make which is that we cannot currently beat Terminus.



And finally a post of someone who is new to Maverick that wants to make suggestions about what we can do to beat Miracles:



I actually really enjoy this post as it has several ideas on how to improve one of Mavericks worst match-ups.

MysteryE: your ideas come down to:

a)planeswalkers/go over the top
b)heavier black splash
c)mass land destruction
d)untargetable creatures

obviously Gaddock Teeg plus Mother of Ruins is line number 1 but that hasn't been safe since the printing of Counsel's Judgement.

to respond:

a) this is one of my favorite options as Elspeth/Garruk are quite a clock and Miracles has an issue with planeswalkers, the issue here is Knight of the Reliquary and Thalia really slow down our mana development
b) most people only play a light black splash for Decay/Thoughtsieze so BB is difficult, also relying on discard+surgical is iffy at best
c) cataclysm is a popular play by Death and Taxes as they can keep multiple creatures, I have been a fan of Winter Orb as they cannot Top every turn with an orb in play, obviously better with mana dorks in play.
d) also another good plan to attack their Terminus since their Swords will be blanks, good but hasn't proven to work every time.

To discuss how Maverick/Miracles matches play out:

Maverick plays early creatures, Miracles cantrips and sets up counter-top.
Maverick attacks for some damage, maybe gets an active equipment, Miracles casts terminus.
Maverick try's to play around the counter-top lock, while also fighting through Swords-Snapcaster/Real Countermagic/more Terminus, Miracles finds their win condition and wins.

The best cards I have found to help disrupt this cycle:

1) Sylvan Library: allowing us to keep up with their card quality and to draw a few extra cards a game is huge
2) Quasali Pridemage: this guy dodges Swords/Terminus, can be brought back from the graveyard with Witness/Rallier or Sword of Light and Shadow if played. Kills Counterbalance, makes it so they cannot fetch with a top in play and kills RiP after board if applicable.
3) Teeg+Karakas+Equipment or Thalia+Karakas+Equipment these work if counterbalance is off the table so you can replay your 2 drop.
4) Winter Orb: as stated before, they cannot top or cantrip easily, which delays the Mentor/Top Combo/Jace/Entreant
5) Flash Creatures and Equipment. Scryb Ranger and Aven Mindcencor right after a Terminus or EoT can really mess with their math, especially with an Equipment in play.

"Original" builds of Maverick from back in the day seem to line up pretty well against modern day Miracles, this list is from 2011:

1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

This has a majority of angles to attack the miracles deck:

Mainboard Sylvan Library and Elspeth.
5 Flash Creatures.
Multiple Pridemages(and another after boarding)
Karakas + Teeg/Thrun

Obviously the list doesn't play Thalia, which hurts combo matchup's but helps you get Thrun and Elspeth on the board in a reasonable amount of time. I feel like this is a reasonable place to start discussion at this point. Here is the list slightly updated:

1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Containment Priest
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Choke

The swords are because Teeg + Light and Shadow should beat Miracles if you can get it, and Feast and Famine is great against all of the BGx decks that Legacy players love(and also, kinda against combo), Jitte is against creature decks.

I think we have TNN issues, but I do not see how they can beat Mom+Knight with the wasteland pressure they will be under in addition to Elspeth and flyers + equipment. We also have a lessened reliance on the graveyard with Heirarch instead of Shaman and Elspeth main. They can keep Knight small but Elspeth can still jump him for a bunch.

---

Once again. I apologize ahead of time. But you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

If you're suggestion against Miracles is to cut Thalia's, add 3 drops, and add more exalted creatures to die to Terminus--then you have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about and are simply trying to save face.

I can tell you that a cloudpost strategy works against Miracles--I've tested it. You games against absolutely everyone else goes into the toilet because of it, but it does work. For much the same reason Show and Tell decks that just slam 3-4 Boseiju against Miracles also works.

Here is the problem with your analysis--you are so damn fixated on playing around Terminus that you don't seem to understand that Terminus is NOT the problem with the Miracles matchup in the least bit. Terminus does only one thing--it clears the board. In a best of three most Miracles players brings extra into the matchup from Pyroclasm, to Engineered Explosives, all the way to Supreme Verdict and Kozilek's Return. I can promise you that just because you add 4 more low power, slow clock flash creatures to your list you have not "solved" a damn thing about their sweeper package.

Second problem--the main form of card advantage that Miracles can lean on the most is Snapcaster Mage. Specifically its ability to double up as either extra Wear/Tears or extra Swords to Plowshares depending on the game state. The best way we have of fighting this is through Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in combination with Mother of Runes. You cutting Thalia means they have full flexibility to just recur removal without losing the ability to still afford to spin the top since you're unable to tax their mana.

So not only are you weak to their sweepers, your list is also weak to their spot removal. But it even gets worse the longer you look at your suggestions on how to beat Miracles. Noble Heirarch to force you to overextend? 2 Elspeth's and a Thrun to ensure you will never beat combo decks while still losing to Monastery Mentor? 7 sideboard slots for Miracles so you can side out 4 Plows and... that's about it--good luck dying to turn 3 mentor since you don't even bring Decays.

Its literally a mess from its core idea all the way to its implementation.

Once again, apologies if it sounds rude, but you really have no idea what you're talking about right now and it seems like you have not actually played the Match in a long long time outside of durdling versus yourself on cockratice or beating the crap out of the local new guy who built Miracles for the first time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TMagpie

Once again. I apologize ahead of time. But you have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

If you're suggestion against Miracles is to cut Thalia's, add 3 drops, and add more exalted creatures to die to Terminus--then you have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about and are simply trying to save face.

I can tell you that a cloudpost strategy works against Miracles--I've tested it. You games against absolutely everyone else goes into the toilet because of it, but it does work. For much the same reason Show and Tell decks that just slam 3-4 Boseiju against Miracles also works.

Here is the problem with your analysis--you are so damn fixated on playing around Terminus that you don't seem to understand that Terminus is NOT the problem with the Miracles matchup in the least bit. Terminus does only one thing--it clears the board. In a best of three most Miracles players brings extra into the matchup from Pyroclasm, to Engineered Explosives, all the way to Supreme Verdict and Kozilek's Return. I can promise you that just because you add 4 more low power, slow clock flash creatures to your list you have not "solved" a damn thing about their sweeper package.

Second problem--the main form of card advantage that Miracles can lean on the most is Snapcaster Mage. Specifically its ability to double up as either extra Wear/Tears or extra Swords to Plowshares depending on the game state. The best way we have of fighting this is through Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in combination with Mother of Runes. You cutting Thalia means they have full flexibility to just recur removal without losing the ability to still afford to spin the top since you're unable to tax their mana.

So not only are you weak to their sweepers, your list is also weak to their spot removal. But it even gets worse the longer you look at your suggestions on how to beat Miracles. Noble Heirarch to force you to overextend? 2 Elspeth's and a Thrun to ensure you will never beat combo decks while still losing to Monastery Mentor? 7 sideboard slots for Miracles so you can side out 4 Plows and... that's about it--good luck dying to turn 3 mentor since you don't even bring Decays.

Its literally a mess from its core idea all the way to its implementation.

Once again, apologies if it sounds rude, but you really have no idea what you're talking about right now and it seems like you have not actually played the Match in a long long time outside of durdling versus yourself on cockratice or beating the crap out of the local new guy who built Miracles for the first time.

---

Did you read the post?

Have you read the last few pages?

Do you still have any idea what I am trying to say?

I clearly stated how I "think" maverick-miracles matches play out, acknowledging the difficulty of fighting through swords-snapcaster, I even included elspeth and thrun, which are great against both wear-tear and swords to plowshares.

I clearly posted a list from 2011 with slight updates to begin discussion, which I also stated.

I even said that the list was missing Thalia's, which hurts the combo matchup.

You have repeated much of what I have already stated in my apparent ongoing crusade to try and beat miracles with GWx/GB decks.

Please, let me know what you think we can do to fight miracles, as this has been the topic of discussion. Once again, I have found some strategies that have been successful.

1) Sylvan Library
2) Pridemage + Recursion (BW Sword)
3) legendary creature + Karakas.... teeg/thrun.... teeg/mom
4) winter orb/Phyrexian revoker
5) flash creatures + equipment

Also, in looking at DNEELYs list, he small black splash for Decay/zealous is perfect for the current meta.

What do you think can help? Obvioulsy no one has a consistent way to beat a good miracles player so I am open to all suggestions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Did you read the post?

Have you read the last few pages?

Do you still have any idea what I am trying to say?

I clearly stated how I "think" maverick-miracles matches play out, acknowledging the difficulty of fighting through swords-snapcaster, I even included elspeth and thrun, which are great against both wear-tear and swords to plowshares.

I clearly posted a list from 2011 with slight updates to begin discussion, which I also stated.

I even said that the list was missing Thalia's, which hurts the combo matchup.

You have repeated much of what I have already stated in my apparent ongoing crusade to try and beat miracles with GWx/GB decks.

Please, let me know what you think we can do to fight miracles, as this has been the topic of discussion. Once again, I have found some strategies that have been successful.

1) Sylvan Library
2) Pridemage + Recursion (BW Sword)
3) legendary creature + Karakas.... teeg/thrun.... teeg/mom
4) winter orb/Phyrexian revoker
5) flash creatures + equipment

Also, in looking at DNEELYs list, he small black splash for Decay/zealous is perfect for the current meta.

What do you think can help? Obvioulsy no one has a consistent way to beat a good miracles player so I am open to all suggestions.

---

In the past two months of live events on MTG top 8, top performing Miracles lists account for only 11% of the metagame. Which means that in any given 15 round event (the two day events we want to perform best in) you are likely to face 1.65 times. Warping your deck to improve 1-2 rounds at the cost of the other 13-14 rounds sounds dumb.

If we distill it further to only big events in the last two months, which is any event with more than 49 players--Miracles drops to 8% of the metagame. And even if we look at just the last two weeks where Miracles is at a whopping 13% of the metagame, Show and Tell + Storm accounts for 15% of the metagame. Which means being able to beat combo is much more relevant to our overall performance than being able to beat good Miracles lists.

I do not like the idea of warping Maverick because our bad matchup is bad. That's simply idiotic and will lead to lots of players wondering why they keep getting randomly trounced in the first 4 rounds of an event. Maverick has strengths, and it has a lot of favorable matchups. If the goal is to adapt to the metagame--then adapt to the metagame instead of adapting to one deck in the metagame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TMagpie

In the past two months of live events on MTG top 8, top performing Miracles lists account for only 11% of the metagame. Which means that in any given 15 round event (the two day events we want to perform best in) you are likely to face 1.65 times. Warping your deck to improve 1-2 rounds at the cost of the other 13-14 rounds sounds dumb.

If we distill it further to only big events in the last two months, which is any event with more than 49 players--Miracles drops to 8% of the metagame. And even if we look at just the last two weeks where Miracles is at a whopping 13% of the metagame, Show and Tell + Storm accounts for 15% of the metagame. Which means being able to beat combo is much more relevant to our overall performance than being able to beat good Miracles lists.

I do not like the idea of warping Maverick because our bad matchup is bad. That's simply idiotic and will lead to lots of players wondering why they keep getting randomly trounced in the first 4 rounds of an event. Maverick has strengths, and it has a lot of favorable matchups. If the goal is to adapt to the metagame--then adapt to the metagame instead of adapting to one deck in the metagame.

---

[Deleted Flames]. Be nice - Julian23

Before you flash your degree in Mathematics please answer my question from the last post. What do you think we should do? Where do you think Maverick has options to advance in the current meta?

Also, you can't group decks to get percentages better than Miracles, especially when Storm and Sneak and Show have completely different angles of attack and hate cards.

I am simply stating that we need a good and effective plan to fight the most popular deck in Legacy. According you your data Mirickes accounts for 13% of your chosen data pool, which is the largest percentage for one single deck.

Also, storm and sneak will always be negative matchups, we are playing GW creatures. If you want to beat combo, play Delver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Okay Capitain Statistics.

Before you flash your degree in Mathematics please answer my question from the last post. What do you think we should do? Where do you think Maverick has options to advance in the current meta?

Also, you can't group decks to get percentages better than Miracles, especially when Storm and Sneak and Show have completely different angles of attack and hate cards.

I am simply stating that we need a good and effective plan to fight the most popular deck in Legacy. According you your data Mirickes accounts for 13% of your chosen data pool, which is the largest percentage for one single deck.

Also, storm and sneak will always be negative matchups, we are playing GW creatures. If you want to beat combo, play Delver.

---

Both Sneak and Show as well as Storm require the same cards; being discard, Thalia, Teeg, and Revokers. Hence why you can stack rank them. The primary difference being that Deathrite Shaman is also useful against Past in Flames decks (usually storm lists lean on this card) while Knight/Karakas is useful against Sneak and Show decks. Those variances are maindeck cards and hence don't affect our sideboard choices--which is why you can stack them in the same lists when it comes to card choices in our sideboard. You'd know this if you played the deck.

As for what I think we should do--I think that we should maximize overall winrate and not focus on how to beat one specific deck. If the only goal you have is to beat Miracles then just play MUD, or Cloudpost, or Eldrazi.

Other observation--different variations of each of the Show and Tell as well as Storm decks have varying degrees of favorability for Maverick. Sneak and Show Maverick is super favored against, while a more Omniscience focused list is almost unwinnable. Ants is actually favored for Maverick past turn 3 while TES is much harder to beat since its much faster than ANTS. Its similar to how UB Reanimator is very good for Maverick, but BR reanimator is very coinflippy.

The same thing happens with Miracles. The legends build of Miracles, for example, has a higher amount of non-basics and hence gets trumped by Thalia/Wasteland shenanigans a lot. But the Predict lists can lean more heavily on their basics and have to really be fought around keeping Teeg alive as opposed to a tempo strategy. Mentor lists are great in that Umezawa's Jitte is actually useful both game 1 and game 2, allowing you a stronger dependence on Stoneforge Mystic and flash creatures. Unlike the entreat lists that are slower and aims to grind more, those lists are much weaker to Walkers and Thrun strategies since they are slower and allows Maverick to still be in striking distance of winning the game should they use fatter threats.

This means that the % on mtgtop8 for miracles is not an accurate tally of it, since the different lists are amalgamated into each other when each lists requires a very different playstyle and card selection to beat. Its much better to have incedental hate for Miracles, an already bad matchup, to try to get free wins while just leaning on maximizing your wins on other matchups in order to increase your overall chances at making it to the top 8 of an event.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TMagpie

In the past two months of live events on MTG top 8, top performing Miracles lists account for only 11% of the metagame. Which means that in any given 15 round event (the two day events we want to perform best in) you are likely to face 1.65 times. Warping your deck to improve 1-2 rounds at the cost of the other 13-14 rounds sounds dumb.

If we distill it further to only big events in the last two months, which is any event with more than 49 players--Miracles drops to 8% of the metagame. And even if we look at just the last two weeks where Miracles is at a whopping 13% of the metagame, Show and Tell + Storm accounts for 15% of the metagame. Which means being able to beat combo is much more relevant to our overall performance than being able to beat good Miracles lists.

I do not like the idea of warping Maverick because our bad matchup is bad. That's simply idiotic and will lead to lots of players wondering why they keep getting randomly trounced in the first 4 rounds of an event. Maverick has strengths, and it has a lot of favorable matchups. If the goal is to adapt to the metagame--then adapt to the metagame instead of adapting to one deck in the metagame.

---

You are referring not to the metagame, but to the top8 of the metagame, the winning decks. However, these numbers have little to do with the percentage of the whole decks in the two days. Keep in mind that Miracles have currently the highest winrate around - which means that e.g. new players are quite inclined to try it out.

Another thing you're a bit missing is that you won't meet your average decks, you will meet some random decks and have more chances of meeting Miracles. I prefer to be ready when metagame calls to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TMagpie

Both Sneak and Show as well as Storm require the same cards; being discard, Thalia, Teeg, and Revokers. Hence why you can stack rank them. The primary difference being that Deathrite Shaman is also useful against Past in Flames decks (usually storm lists lean on this card) while Knight/Karakas is useful against Sneak and Show decks. Those variances are maindeck cards and hence don't affect our sideboard choices--which is why you can stack them in the same lists when it comes to card choices in our sideboard. You'd know this if you played the deck.

As for what I think we should do--I think that we should maximize overall winrate and not focus on how to beat one specific deck. If the only goal you have is to beat Miracles then just play MUD, or Cloudpost, or Eldrazi.

Other observation--different variations of each of the Show and Tell as well as Storm decks have varying degrees of favorability for Maverick. Sneak and Show Maverick is super favored against, while a more Omniscience focused list is almost unwinnable. Ants is actually favored for Maverick past turn 3 while TES is much harder to beat since its much faster than ANTS. Its similar to how UB Reanimator is very good for Maverick, but BR reanimator is very coinflippy.

The same thing happens with Miracles. The legends build of Miracles, for example, has a higher amount of non-basics and hence gets trumped by Thalia/Wasteland shenanigans a lot. But the Predict lists can lean more heavily on their basics and have to really be fought around keeping Teeg alive as opposed to a tempo strategy. Mentor lists are great in that Umezawa's Jitte is actually useful both game 1 and game 2, allowing you a stronger dependence on Stoneforge Mystic and flash creatures. Unlike the entreat lists that are slower and aims to grind more, those lists are much weaker to Walkers and Thrun strategies since they are slower and allows Maverick to still be in striking distance of winning the game should they use fatter threats.

This means that the % on mtgtop8 for miracles is not an accurate tally of it, since the different lists are amalgamated into each other when each lists requires a very different playstyle and card selection to beat. Its much better to have incedental hate for Miracles, an already bad matchup, to try to get free wins while just leaning on maximizing your wins on other matchups in order to increase your overall chances at making it to the top 8 of an event.

---

I will be ignoring most of the nonsense that you put in this post, as I did find a small piece of response that can be saveable.

In your ramble, you mention Phyrexian Revoker, which is a card that Maverick has not adopted as main deckable, but is played in Death and Taxes to great success.

Do you think that this is a card we should be playing more of as a way to better interact with Counter Top/planeswakers/equipment or so you feel that Pridemage fills the slot in GW creature decks?

Also, just so you clearly know the premise of my post: I believe that Maverick, and green based creature decks in general i.e. Junk/Rock/Jund/Deadguy/Eva/whatever, all need to improve their Miracles matchup considerably to start the journey to tier 1. What can we do to improve our matchup against the best deck in the format?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I will be ignoring most of the nonsense that you put in this post, as I did find a small piece of response that can be saveable.

In your ramble, you mention Phyrexian Revoker, which is a card that Maverick has not adopted as main deckable, but is played in Death and Taxes to great success.

Do you think that this is a card we should be playing more of as a way to better interact with Counter Top/planeswakers/equipment or so you feel that Pridemage fills the slot in GW creature decks?

Also, just so you clearly know the premise of my post: I believe that Maverick, and green based creature decks in general i.e. Junk/Rock/Jund/Deadguy/Eva/whatever, all need to improve their Miracles matchup considerably to start the journey to tier 1. What can we do to improve our matchup against the best deck in the format?

---

To be honest is there really anything we can be doing that will drastically change the miracles MU?

I think the point of others is that to try and pack so many cards against miracles you ultimately weaken the deck against the overall field which doesn't solve anything. To add to that..I don't think adding things like Thrun, an armageddon and some extra planeswalkers will really help the matchup THAT much. They do help though but I don't think they swing it in our favor.

In my opinion we are weak to miracles because most of their interaction if not all (counter spells/spot removal/sweeper) all interacts with what our deck is about...creatures.

We can dillute our creature suite with things like planeswalkers etc.. but the consistency of Miracles is still too good. A good pilot can keep up with us and stabilize usually.

The matchup is not unwinnable. I think there are good things we can use to combat miracles. And to clarify I am not against using some planeswalkers/armageddon/winter orbs to try and deal with that specific MU. But those cards only go so far and trying to jam even more of them starts to feel like diminishing returns where we are just weakening the deck.

Don't get me wrong. If there is some list of Maverick out there that can stay potent against a lot of the field but swing the Miracles MU in our favor I would be all about it. But I feel like every deck has it's limitations. If you're going to play Maverick you should know the MU and have a game plan but simply put Miracles will not be easy and you will not be favored. I just feel that, that is the reality of things.

I love Maverick and it will always be one of if not my favorite decks. If it could get into a spot where it was considered Tier 1 I would love that.

I've played Revoker in basically every style deck I've ever played. It is what it is