Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
This discussion and arguments are completely messed up.
If I drop a comment about how to tackle D&T you point to Meddling mage and Clique; If I talk about by postboard game you point at preboard use of discard against Hatebears; You talk the "fetchland, go" approach based on a manabase I don't even run; You praise swamp+thoughtseize for Game 1s against D&T and dodge the question of how you know that you play against D&T in the first place and ignore cases of "double hatebear" completely
I don't see what is messed up about it, deciding whether or not to use Thoughtseize is a consideration based on the whole metagame. I could just as easily argue the asininities of the opponent having two hatebears as a reason for not running Thoughtseize at all when Duress would be even worse. As far as how I know I'm playing against D&T in order to know whether or not I should fetch Swamp, I would think either seeing a Plains or casting a Gitaxian Probe should make it rather obvious ... or having already played game 1 vs them and thinking about the impact of your card choices in 3 games of Magic ... do I really need to explain this?
Let me recap, Thoughtseize is better vs control because it removes Vendilion Clique and Meddling Mage, it is better vs prison because it can remove hatebears, it is probably worse but still playable vs aggro-control, it lets us better leverage Swamp in prison match ups, "Fetch, go" is about maximizing the number of blue producing Lands in order to optimize cantrips on T2 I.e. why I dislike Badlands and question Swamp and Bloodstained Mire over a 3rd Underground Sea and Misty Rainforest.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
I don't see what is messed up about it, deciding whether or not to use Thoughtseize is a consideration based on the whole metagame. I could just as easily argue the asininities of the opponent having two hatebears as a reason for not running Thoughtseize at all when Duress would be even worse.
If you want to adress "the whole metagame", you need to look at the resurge of Tempo decks too, a supertype we both know that lifeloss can be backbreaking against. Whats the bigger percentage of the metagame, burn/tempo/similar or hatebear.dec? Is the penetration of hatebears high enough to make an argument FOR Thoughtseize, but not high enough to let Thoughtseize.matchplan suffer from opposing hatebear redundancy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
As far as how I know I'm playing against D&T in order to know whether or not I should fetch Swamp, I would think either seeing a Plains or casting a Gitaxian Probe should make it rather obvious ... or having already played game 1 vs them and thinking about the impact of your card choices in 3 games of Magic ... do I really need to explain this?
You need to explain your mulligan decisions and opening play with your proposed swamp+TS against generic opponents game 1 as you seem to miraculously know your opponents deck being a hatebear.dec and argue based on that. I don't care for anti-Duress aguments for postboard games as they would be removed anyways and I rather see an EtW in my starting grip vs. Hatebears than a Thoughtseize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Let me recap, Thoughtseize is better vs control because it removes Vendilion Clique and Meddling Mage, it is better vs prison because it can remove hatebears, it is probably worse but still playable vs aggro-control, it lets us better leverage Swamp in prison match ups, "Fetch, go" is about maximizing the number of blue producing Lands in order to optimize cantrips on T2 I.e. why I dislike Badlands and question Swamp and Bloodstained Mire over a 3rd Underground Sea and Misty Rainforest.
I don't have the slightest clue how you're able to put "Fetch, go" in the same sentence as "Hatebears" and/or "Prison". I also fail to see how discarding the Clique/Meddling Mage (which are sideboard cards in most cases) is better than dropping 12+ Goblins (via the increased number of EtW you can draw) before opposing creatures even matter.
You opt to T1 discard and gamble your opponent get nothing else going from there, while I want to drop Goblins asap and gamble on my opponent not finding a solution.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
My SCG: NJ was short lived.
R1, I'm playing against Tezzerator. I've played a Duress and two Cabal Therapy to shred his hand hitting a Chalice of the Void and a Transmute Artifact. He draws revoker and names LED (I have one on the table), meanwhile he's been up ticking his Hangarback Walker. I'm at fourteen and have been setting up a Past in Flames kill, I have three Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor and Past in Flames in hand. My opponent has a Tezzeret and one unknown. I play Dark Ritual (two untapped lands), Infernal Tutor (Dark Ritual), Dark Ritual, Past in Flames? He casts Force of Will. I'm trying to figure out if I should play the remaining two Dark Rituals into Ad Nauseam. I'm thinking, even if it isn't a kill I can stop above six, use the new resources and flashback Past in Flames next turn? Or... I can play it safe and just PIF kill next turn, but would lose to a top deck Chalice of the Void/Transmute Artifact. I decide to Ad Nauseam, my first flip is Empty the Warrens, Gitaxian Probe, Rite of Flame and Burning Wish. Uh... Pass. I go to one. Untap, draw brainstorm into a Lotus Petal, Fetchland and Undergound Sea. I end up making 12 Goblins. He attacks with Hangarback, I block, I swing leaving three back (Tomb Damage changes the clock), he draws Baleful strix. My crack back won't kill him (even if I only left two back). I lose to strix.
Game two, he starts off the game with a Leyline of the Void. Thats fine, hes stuck on mana. I cast multiple Burning Wish and a Chain of Vapor to bleed his hand of his 3 Force of Wills. Eventually, I empty the Warrens for 14 (by then he's drawn some mana). He plats Master of Etherium as a blocker. I attack, he draws (I know all but one card), thinks and plays Transmute artifact for Helm of Obiedience...
Two games two top decks.
Against BUG Delver, I manage to Empty the Warrens for 14 against his lone Deathrite Shaman after he taps out for Painful Truths. I flashback two Cabal Therapy hitting Brainstorm and Bile Blight (only a Tarmogoyf left in his hand). Untaps, draws... Golgari Charm. 0-2
In my third round, I had given up and wasn't trying. I essentially gave it to him so that I could play in side events. A rough weekend for Legacy.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
@Bryant
This is Magic. A game of skill but also a game of chance. We've all been there :(
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
That's unfortunate, I was hoping to see some of your matches when the commentators mentioned you were playing. Bad luck happens sometimes I guess.
It seems like EtW not getting there lead to all of your losses. In my latest testing with TES I had similar problems, it seems to me that too many decks have ways to beat 10-12 tokens nowadays. Miracles tend to leave in their Terminus and/or board Staticaster when they see Rite of Flame and Burning Wish in my local meta. Grixis Delver can often beat a bunch of Goblins with Pyromancer and DRS being good at soaking up 1/1s. Elves is hard to trump with 1/1s too. Lands has Tabernacle and lots of tutors to find it. Storm and other combo can kill you the turn before your Goblins are lethal. Might just be a coincidence, though, but still I went back to ANT a while ago because of it, and my results have been better.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
That's unfortunate, I was hoping to see some of your matches when the commentators mentioned you were playing. Bad luck happens sometimes I guess.
It seems like EtW not getting there lead to all of your losses. In my latest testing with TES I had similar problems, it seems to me that too many decks have ways to beat 10-12 tokens nowadays. Miracles tend to leave in their Terminus and/or board Staticaster when they see Rite of Flame and Burning Wish in my local meta. Grixis Delver can often beat a bunch of Goblins with Pyromancer and DRS being good at soaking up 1/1s. Elves is hard to trump with 1/1s too. Lands has Tabernacle and lots of tutors to find it. Storm and other combo can kill you the turn before your Goblins are lethal. Might just be a coincidence, though, but still I went back to ANT a while ago because of it, and my results have been better.
I've toyed with the idea of playing the current list with -3 Chrome Mox +1 Past in Flames +2 Cabal Ritual. I haven't tested it, it would make Ad Nauseam much less reliable while having a stronger late game and still having some quick bursts with a MD ETW.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
That's an interesting idea. Although I've always run some sort of hybridized lists (love BWish too much to go full-ANT), I haven't tried PiF main without actual Tendrils in the main deck. I feel like it may really hurt that you almost always need 2 extra mana if you have to BWish for Tendrils at the end of your PiF loop.
EtW is currently only a (wish)sideboard option for me and I only go for it if I get the natural BWish+4 mana floating, or if I cast Infernal with 6 floating in situations where I'm 100% sure EtW will win where AN and PiF may fail, which admittedly is rare.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
That's an interesting idea. Although I've always run some sort of hybridized lists (love BWish too much to go full-ANT), I haven't tried PiF main without actual Tendrils in the main deck. I feel like it may really hurt that you almost always need 2 extra mana if you have to BWish for Tendrils at the end of your PiF loop.
EtW is currently only a (wish)sideboard option for me and I only go for it if I get the natural BWish+4 mana floating, or if I cast Infernal with 6 floating in situations where I'm 100% sure EtW will win where AN and PiF may fail, which admittedly is rare.
I'm likely to stick with my current list as it's been doing me very well (3 events were big successes - SCG:NJ was the 4th event with 3 Mox which was a fail). I'm going to chalk up the bad experience to unfortunate luck.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I'm likely to stick with my current list as it's been doing me very well (3 events were big successes - SCG:NJ was the 4th event with 3 Mox which was a fail). I'm going to chalk up the bad experience to unfortunate luck.
Stick with what works. You know what you're doing. I've run very similar Infect lists at 6 major events this year (Indy, Worcester, DC, St. Louis, SeaTac, and NJ) and did very well at all but 2. I think experience and familiarity was way more important than deck mods. Fate is indeed a cruel mistress who eventually gets us.
See you in Philly ;)
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hi all Stormers!
I've been tunning my TES deck for the MKM Series in Madrid - the trials are next Friday 18 at 13:00, this would definately be the tournament which will dictate if I bring this deck or TNT. I'm not sure if this is the best place to post this in here but if anybody is going to the MKM in Madrid and will go to the Big Trial on Friday, please let me know to change impressions or maybe make some testing or whatever (no sex yes drugs)...
Let's rock the MKM with Storm!
Apart, Bahamut, Lemnear, F.Fortune and Asthereal mainly, just out of curiosity how are you siding vs merfolks lately - the full chalice version?
I'm doing like:
+2 Xantid,+1 Bayou, +3 A.D. (I have 4 A.D. but seems to me a too much dedicated slot to uniquely chalices... maybe 4th should come in?)+1 Duress (4th from side) = -2 Cabal therapy, -4 ponder, -1 EtW.
but sometimes I leave the EtW... as in here I also want speed... and C.T. gave me some games as hits cursecatcher....
and also depends if I am on the play or on the draw...., for example on the play I usually leave EtW and dont side in A.D. leaving full therapies
Please could you let me know you side of the draw and on the play vs this?
and vs Grixis? I uniquely do:
-2 ponder, +1 Bayou (total 13 lands) +1Green Silence
However I feel like I miss more ponder than C.M. thats why I'm thinking in siding instead of 2nd ponder 1 C.M, (I play 3 C.M.)....
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Ahh, the good old 'I want 4 of this card but I don't board in 4 because that is too many' thought process.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hi all I'll expose my experience with TES along the MKM Series Madrid and trying to reach some conslusions.
The Trial:
I finally opted to try to get a bye on friday main legacy trials and got it, but it was in deed at a great cost as the organization wasn't the best and we were fighting for example the 3rd round at 18:00... even we were near 40 people we even had to play the top8 going back at home at 2:00 and having to get up at 8:00...
This trial was going to be in deed the tournament which will dictate if I was going to the main legacy with TES or TNT... TES was the chosen one.
In the Trial I faced 2 Grixis, 1miracles, D&T, 1 Belcher and Lands which I won all except Belcher...
I have to say that after the trials I was very confidant with that TES deck winning that miracles and that Tempo in a good manner. I remember the game vs tempo and EtW is still the all star, C.M. also helped in one game that was exacly: I play fetch and pretend I'm thinking, then proceed to C.M., L.P, RoF, LED, B.W. into EtW, Great.
The Main event was more of the same. I was able to get a 5-2 but at this point I was dissapointing for loosing vs Miracles and the 8th round I just kept hands which I should, maybe had mulliganed... Would you keep OTD LED, LED 2 Gitaxian, Ponder, I.T., B.W.? I kept that hand and loose and the next I kept a hand of G.P. LED, D.R., D.R., I.T. ponder B.S. I just didn't find any land in these 2 matches, but again I believe I should have mulliganed... I just wanted to go home. maybe I shouldn't have gone to the trials....
The main Event:
In the main event I faced 2 Grixis, 1 Kind of Jund with Collected Company, 1 Miracles, 2 ANT 1 Miracles and 1 Canadian 3Hold.
The deck felt pretty solid against Grixis in general, but again the loose game against miracles was so dissapointing...:
The first game I just discarded a ponder and nex I cast A.NAuseam and win.
The 2nd he just plays c.b and uses senseis to death and wins as im not able to find any A.Decay
The 3rd game he is able to stablish with senseis and even I am able to cast I.T. to 2nd A.D. he along the game drew all the 4 Counterbalance.
Paco Belloch I won't forget you! - nice guy.
So I am a litle (really very) sad about my loose vs miracles as it was going to be a deck with a lot of pressence in the MKM, however as said in total I won 3 Grixis and lost to 1 3hold for not good mulligans.
One thing I can say about the miracles archetype match up in general , I am not going to say was bad luck that the opp. drew the full 4 c.b., but in my experience the wins go through beeing as fast as possible vs this archetype - maybe I have 80% of winnings in the 1st games, decay just answers his balance, right, but we don't have senseis and this card in the mid-long game just wrecks us- all you know, I will opt from now on another approach vs this archetype and means 0 decays, +2nd A.N. +4th Duress from side = -1EtW,-1Ponder, what do you guys think?
Forgot: The other loose vs ANT was mainly dictated because of Therapy. the card is insane. he was able to cast discard and slow me enough to win in the mid game
I am kind of dissapointing for not getting a top8, which was likely the tournament I had most expectations on... and absolutly I hate Miracles..., likely I start to play again this deck...
the list for reference:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
1 EtW
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
sideboard
1 bayou
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Autum's Veil
1 Void Snare
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Duress
1 Massacre
2 Xantid S.
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 D.Petition
Congratulations to Togores for his top8 with ANT.
Aftermaths:
I still have pending my particular top8 with TES in any great turnament..., I still am not going to change my base, but I'm thinking in how to handle miracles, now I can say I will discard A.D. in a deck which has 80% wins through this deck in 1st games, all I can do is just getting better this approach and I believe, as noted before, that adding the 2nd A.N instead of the EtW and adding the 8th discard will contribute to this purpose.
A.D. was key somehow vs a lands deck in the trials, but also CoV had done the same job: I needed to handle 1 thalia, 1 chalice at 0 and 1 in hand in the 2nd game and was good. but for the rest of things, I really dont know how much this card will be so critical...
Opnions?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
1) you wonder about bad mulligans/hands of you just run 12 lands?
2) you want to dismiss Decay and instant lose to Counterbalance/MeddlingMage?
3) Decay handles Chalice @ 1 which is the key in the matchups involving the card. Decay also potentially digs you out of matchups where your opponent is able to drop a second hate-permanent while CoV is not. Decay handles Thalia + Vial @ 2 unlike CoV; etc
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
1) you wonder about bad mulligans/hands of you just run 12 lands?
the game I lost was vs RUG, and I recognized that maybe I should have made mulligan, I made 0 mulligans in all the tournament.
maybe I should have to say that in that match up I also didn't draw Lotus petal and neither C.M. which were valid options.
I won the others Tempo match ups - 4 Grixis Delver. Sure they all played therapies, stifle and likes. the good thing is that are quite predictable...
I am not worried about Tempo. I have never been worried about tempo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
2) you want to dismiss Decay and instant lose to Counterbalance/MeddlingMage?
Absolutly not, these are at least my percentages of winning vs Miracles:
- 1st game: 80%
- 2nd and 3rd games: Less than 30%.
I've been toying with ideas around full decays plus 1 krosan or adding also Xantids, pyros, nedles , and the last thing 1 Autums veil, I am appy with this card which I sided in vs tempo..
however when you side in so many cards vs this archetype you side out C.M. and you are inherently making the deck less faster. Maybe with ANT decks, you could side in a couple of Senseis and full decays and do things like PiF to destroy balance, because you can enter in his MidToLate game. but this deck is TES, It tooks me this tournament to notice this as this is the 6th time I face miracles winning uniquely 2 of these match ups, and among them winning almost all the 1st games. you won't win the game if you are slow and let the opp. to senseis to death drawing 3 balance and mages or even Misdirection for your decays as radical example. you will win games by beeing able to discard a balance or fow or mage and next win. at least this is my experience. you do absolulty nothing vs senseis and they now play ponder even... which means post board they have 12 cantrips vs 4 from us to find their AnswerToUs - (we even side out ponder...).
Thats why I am planning to side in uniquely 2nd Ad Nauseam and 4th duress. however, maybe as you say, I should need to play more T.Seize instead. as this also targets M.M..., really don't know., but the idea for me is clear.
OR
as my other ANT players just play Plain ANT - I will need to play TNT as I like so much B.W. with Senseis or likes to be able to somehow have any chance in the midToLate Game vs Miracles.
OR
go back to my begginings and play Miracles.
Please give me your plan vs Miracles apart from siding EtW, which definately is not valid, they leave terminus, pyroclasm, or EE... I remember the hand when I play gitaxian OTD the 2nd game: it was B.S., balance, terminus and lands....
Maybe the plan of DecaysOfHope is ok (in my experience it is just as equal as loosing....) vs games on the draw, but OTP, well I will happy to see Ad Nauseam and C.M. and duress which makes me able to win just after I discard his FoW/Fluster. no more than 3rd turn should take the win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
3) Decay handles Chalice @ 1 which is the key in the matchups involving the card. Decay also potentially digs you out of matchups where your opponent is able to drop a second hate-permanent while CoV is not. Decay handles Thalia + Vial @ 2 unlike CoV; etc
Agree, by the moment I just took out 4th decay by 1 Ad Nauseam, and maybe I move the duress to T.Seize and move from 1 Duress main to 1Seize.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
My short TR from our year end tourney.
happy holidays guys!
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/20...-year-end.html
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I won the others Tempo match ups - 4 Grixis Delver. Sure they all played therapies, stifle and likes. the good thing is that are quite predictable...
I am not worried about Tempo. I have never been worried about tempo.
Grixis is no deck after the ban of DTT imo. Its a worse version of BUG delver with various configuration of discard or additional counters (aka stifle, fluster, etc.). Most play Therapy in Sideboard at best. Compared with other tempo decks they don't pressure your life fast either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Absolutly not, these are at least my percentages of winning vs Miracles:
- 1st game: 80%
- 2nd and 3rd games: Less than 30%.
I've been toying with ideas around full decays plus 1 krosan or adding also Xantids, pyros, nedles , and the last thing 1 Autums veil, I am appy with this card which I sided in vs tempo..
however when you side in so many cards vs this archetype you side out C.M. and you are inherently making the deck less faster. Maybe with ANT decks, you could side in a couple of Senseis and full decays and do things like PiF to destroy balance, because you can enter in his MidToLate game. but this deck is TES, It tooks me this tournament to notice this as this is the 6th time I face miracles winning uniquely 2 of these match ups, and among them winning almost all the 1st games. you won't win the game if you are slow and let the opp. to senseis to death drawing 3 balance and mages or even Misdirection for your decays as radical example. you will win games by beeing able to discard a balance or fow or mage and next win. at least this is my experience. you do absolulty nothing vs senseis and they now play ponder even... which means post board they have 12 cantrips vs 4 from us to find their AnswerToUs - (we even side out ponder...).
What you lack to realize about your G1 is that unknown opponents might not keep a hand which is excellent against combo, but against creatures and ergo that way they might lack tools to defend against fast combo. In other words: You steal game 1. Games 2 & 3 are the ones where you fight against Miracles in its anti-combo mode aka when it matters.
I really don't care for arguments resulting from completely overboarding in this matchup with mediocre cards like Xantids or Pyros while reducing business. ANT isn't siding SDTs either, so don't create a strawman especially as the idea to gain more value from SDT than Miracles is ridiculous and proven wrong in the ANT thread. You side out Moxen to decrease the bad draws for longer matches aka improving the midgame. You can also board PIF to flashback Decays for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Thats why I am planning to side in uniquely 2nd Ad Nauseam and 4th duress. however, maybe as you say, I should need to play more T.Seize instead. as this also targets M.M..., really don't know., but the idea for me is clear.
OR
as my other ANT players just play Plain ANT - I will need to play TNT as I like so much B.W. with Senseis or likes to be able to somehow have any chance in the midToLate Game vs Miracles.
OR
go back to my begginings and play Miracles.
You want to play Thoughtseize AND 5cmc cards to reveal to Ad Nauseam? I also don't get why you think ANT is better suited for the matchup than TES. The GP in Seattle showed that Miracles can be fought with Multi-EtW from ANTs sideboards and you still claim otherwise while the data is there. The key to win the Miracles matchup is forcing them into being active instead of just sitting behind counterbalance and piling up counters. This accounts for TES and ANT which have the same tools to fight back postboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Please give me your plan vs Miracles apart from siding EtW, which definately is not valid, they leave terminus, pyroclasm, or EE... I remember the hand when I play gitaxian OTD the 2nd game: it was B.S., balance, terminus and lands....
Maybe the plan of DecaysOfHope is ok (in my experience it is just as equal as loosing....) vs games on the draw, but OTP, well I will happy to see Ad Nauseam and C.M. and duress which makes me able to win just after I discard his FoW/Fluster. no more than 3rd turn should take the win.
I've gone through the topic several times. Go look at GP Seattle data to see how the Multi-EtW works instead of claiming that it does not. You deny proven facts with the age-old and invalid argument of "but there can be removal". Its also annoying to discuss based on "oh I have the natural turn 1 discard and turn 2 win EVERY FUCKING TIME and my opponent a maximum of 1 piece of defense". Your whole plan (which you talked about in your last post) is diwn the drain ince your opponent has TWO pieces of interaction. Seriously, it wouldn't be the first time, I notice miracles players keeping a hand with FoW, opening with Ponder to float Counterbalance for their turn 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Agree, by the moment I just took out 4th decay by 1 Ad Nauseam, and maybe I move the duress to T.Seize and move from 1 Duress main to 1Seize.
I stress 4 Decays for months now was its the inly card which can save you from Counterbalance and Chalice @ 1. You don't even have a chance to play with either card on the table and given the spread of these two cards in europe, going anywhere without 4 is nuts
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Apart, Bahamut, Lemnear, F.Fortune and Asthereal mainly, just out of curiosity how are you siding vs merfolks lately - the full chalice version?
I'm doing like:
+2 Xantid,+1 Bayou, +3 A.D. (I have 4 A.D. but seems to me a too much dedicated slot to uniquely chalices... maybe 4th should come in?)+1 Duress (4th from side) = -2 Cabal therapy, -4 ponder, -1 EtW.
but sometimes I leave the EtW... as in here I also want speed... and C.T. gave me some games as hits cursecatcher....
and also depends if I am on the play or on the draw...., for example on the play I usually leave EtW and dont side in A.D. leaving full therapies
Please could you let me know you side of the draw and on the play vs this?
and vs Grixis? I uniquely do:
-2 ponder, +1 Bayou (total 13 lands) +1Green Silence
However I feel like I miss more ponder than C.M. thats why I'm thinking in siding instead of 2nd ponder 1 C.M, (I play 3 C.M.)....
Against Merfolk with Chalice I haven't played yet. I'd probably add all Decays and Xantids, drop 2 Ponder and go down to 1 Mox. Other cards to side out would be a number of Cabal Therapies. Keep the main deck Empty the Warrens. If I were to run 3x Empty on side, I'd be tempted to play Discard-Goblin aggro on the play, but I never run that tech.
Against Grixis (which still is a deck, according to our current DtB section), I'd add my 8th discard spell for a Mox (if I run 3x Mox main) or for a Ponder (if I run 2x Mox - I want to keep 2x Mox against Tempo). I don't run Silence effects in my current lists.
(Note: I have my Bayou in the main - 13 lands total.)
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Grixis is no deck after the ban of DTT imo. Its a worse version of BUG delver with various configuration of discard or additional counters (aka stifle, fluster, etc.). Most play Therapy in Sideboard at best. Compared with other tempo decks they don't pressure your life fast either.
well, after siding and if they include 4 therapies, it is a deck to have in mind, I am not going to say is an easy match up, in deed it is tough... the difference in presure is DRS vs Nimble which is not a huge difference. but ok...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
What you lack to realize about your G1 is that unknown opponents might not keep a hand which is excellent against combo, but against creatures and ergo that way they might lack tools to defend against fast combo. In other words: You steal game 1. Games 2 & 3 are the ones where you fight against Miracles in its anti-combo mode aka when it matters.
I really don't care for arguments resulting from completely overboarding in this matchup with mediocre cards like Xantids or Pyros while reducing business. ANT isn't siding SDTs either, so don't create a strawman especially as the idea to gain more value from SDT than Miracles is ridiculous and proven wrong in the ANT thread. You side out Moxen to decrease the bad draws for longer matches aka improving the midgame. You can also board PIF to flashback Decays for example.
Well I realized that...
the point is exactly this. C.M.is bad for midtolate games, but I dont think we want to reach the midtolate game vs the best deck equiped in legacy to fight the midtolate game...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
You want to play Thoughtseize AND 5cmc cards to reveal to Ad Nauseam? I also don't get why you think ANT is better suited for the matchup than TES. The GP in Seattle showed that Miracles can be fought with Multi-EtW from ANTs sideboards and you still claim otherwise while the data is there. The key to win the Miracles matchup is forcing them into being active instead of just sitting behind counterbalance and piling up counters. This accounts for TES and ANT which have the same tools to fight back postboard.
Well not exactly, I substitute EtW by 2nd A.N. which is adding +1 mana cost to the 60 cards in the deck, statistically is not that bad... uniquely a 5 cost instead of 4....
I intend to test 2T.Seize main for 2nd and 3rd games vs this archetype...
I believe ANT is worse suited than TES for 1st games just because TES is faster, however ANT is better suited for 2nd games just because the late game of ANT is just better than TES...
I looked at the GP Seatle - and the unique ANT deck I saw in 27th position was this: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18767&iddeck=142349
it plays Monastery mentor! which maybe is like the EtW plan, am I right?
I also had a look at the latest Caleb build which involves full decays and EtW...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I've gone through the topic several times. Go look at GP Seattle data to see how the Multi-EtW works instead of claiming that it does not. You deny proven facts with the age-old and invalid argument of "but there can be removal". Its also annoying to discuss based on "oh I have the natural turn 1 discard and turn 2 win EVERY FUCKING TIME and my opponent a maximum of 1 piece of defense". Your whole plan (which you talked about in your last post) is diwn the drain ince your opponent has TWO pieces of interaction. Seriously, it wouldn't be the first time, I notice miracles players keeping a hand with FoW, opening with Ponder to float Counterbalance for their turn 2.
I recognize I still haven't tested EtW plan vs miracles.... that was my perception... I feel that if opp. keeps their terminus and plays 12 cantrips, it is difficult to win through EtW tokens....
I feel that discard and next win is the way to go, yes, I dont expect this to happens all the times, but in the 3rd turn as the latest... well you can discard c.b. if you hit it, and try to combo in 4th turn after a 2nd discard as statistically he would need to find 1 more among 47 cards left having 3 left in the deck...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I stress 4 Decays for months now was its the inly card which can save you from Counterbalance and Chalice @ 1. You don't even have a chance to play with either card on the table and given the spread of these two cards in europe, going anywhere without 4 is nuts
I was playing 4 decays since I wanted to battle miracles too... but I just feel decay sometimes fail me because just I dont draw it or because if I draw it the opp. already developed his plan and it is just useless... I believe that adding more speed to the deck and still not lacking of proactive answers is the way to go in TES vs Miracles. BUT this is something I need to test, by the moment 4 decays didn't win any game vs miracles for me and this is the fact.
As said, I will test EtW plan at some point, but I am not convinced yet by the arguments I exposed before...
@Asthereal, thanks. I felt great vs Grixis the torunament... I took out 2 ponder by bayou and autums veil... I also prefer to leave EtW vs merfolks... what do you do vs Miracles?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
