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Yes, but my point is that Gideon won't win you the game when you are behind, and that's a very crucial nuance. When the opponent has Flickerwisp or Serra Avenger with Jitte active, I would not want to draw Gideon. And well, trying to resolve a 4 mana spell when both players are Rishadan Port'ing each other (and Wasteland obv) seems kinda unrealistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
When the opponent has an active Jitte, you don't want to draw most cards in your deck. But nobody's advocating siding out your Revokers or STPs. The number of Gideons you play really doesn't affect how much it sucks to face an active Jitte. So yeah, he's pretty bad when you're far behind, and he's pretty bad when you're tight on mana, and those situations do come up. But a healthy % of DnT mirrors, especially post-board, are grindy board stalls or 1 for 1 trade-offs with a bunch of STPs being fired off. In those games he just wins.
Given the list, after cutting Thalias and Prelates, there's at least one easy cut left with Spirit of the Labyrinth, which is actually worse than Prelate in the mirror. (Sometimes Prelate on 1 is nice way to seal up the game if you're way ahead, whereas Spirit really does nothing and dies to a breeze.) So playing 1 Gideon at least shouldn't be controversial with that list - you're taking out a garbage card for a card with the potential to take over the game. So then you need 1 more cut to play 2, which I would. That cut is harder, but with that list I'd probably cut Crusader - which is actually good in the mirror, and sometimes I'll even board extras in vs DnT - but it's still not as powerful as Gideon.
With my build or a similar build, I recommend something like: -4 Thalia, -1 Prelate, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Needle, +1 Batterskull, +1 Gideon/Path/Containment Priest. I don't think I like boarding in both Gideons, as sometimes the mirror can really be a mana war and you don't have the resources to dedicate to it, but it can be very good. That being said, if I had another dead maindeck card, I might.
I play a 2nd Serra Avenger over the Spirit of the Labyrinth, but I agree with your approach. I'd probably board it like that if my list did have the Spirit over the 2nd Avenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
That's an interesting approach to the matchup. I've been playing it very differently. Instead of trying to fight their mana, I've been boarding assuming that I'm going to lose the mana war to a deck with 29 mana sources. I'm boarding out 4 Thalia, 1 Plow, 1 Batterskull and boarding in 1 Needle, 2 Councils Judgement, 1 Blessed Alliance, 2 Gideon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Boarding out Thalia against a blue deck initially felt weird, but I'm not too concerned about many of their spells and they run enough lands to be able to ignore it a lot of the time. I also am bringing in expensive spells that I want to cast, and they're a Dread of Night deck so I'm looking to cut 1 toughness creatures. I value Prelate highly because I'm aiming to name 2 with it. That shuts off most of the cards that I actually care about, Jitte being the most dangerous card in their deck.
Thoughts?
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Your approach seems right, but cutting Batterskull is definitely a huge mistake. At least Reid Duke's stock list is quite light on removal and you can usually easily stick a SFM and drop Batterskull which will immediately blanks the first Nemesis they'll play/have played. Jitte is probably the worst artifact here, but still okay for racing situations. But if there is a equipment to cut, it would definitely be Jitte first (especially since its removal function is painfully inefficient in the face of a Leovold).Quote:
Originally Posted by WashableWater1
I think cutting Jitte is correct if you are aiming to shut it off with Pithing Needle and/or Revoker and/or Prelates anyway, it would be a dead draw. And I do believe that you should board out Palace Jailer. You'll lose monarch to TNN and you can't draw these extra cards when there is Leovold.
With their 8 manadorks they can also get under Thalia quite easily, and then there is this random Murderous Cut that can also get under Thalia in some situations (although I think it will be substituted for Fatal Push? I guess we'll have to wait how Reid Duke or other people update the deck). And you want to be able to resolve your Council's Judgment and Gideons, so I'd cut 4 Thalia, Palace Jailer and Jitte for the 6 cards you mentioned (even though I'm not playing Blessed Alliance myself).
However, I do believe the matchup is slightly in favor of DnT simply due to threat density. TNN BUG feels like it has 6 real threats and the 7 others (DRS, JTMS) are rather easy to handle (Revoker/Needle/racing/bla) whereas DnT plays like 26 threats. There is a reason why Reid Duke played 2 Dread of Night in his SB.
Keep in mind I wrote that while testing SoBaM. It is leagues better than Batterskull in that matchup, and everything I wrote about sideboarding takes that into account.
Batterskull is one of the best cards to race TNN with. Cutting it is just wrong, especially when it's pretty much impossible for TNN BUG to ever handle Batterskull. Sword of Body and Mind is good, but it won't ever turn a damage race against a TNN with a couple of exalted triggers or DRS activiations to your favor. Batterskull strapped to a flyer on the other hand can. Or a Mother of Runes that can attack with vigilance and then protects itself against blue (or whatever color depending on the board state). Even if it gets blocked by an elf, you'll gain 5 life which means surviving one more hit by TNN. It's absolutely crucial for combat math reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
With sword of body and mind you mill them and spam tokens, I am not sure racing will really be an issue with the extra 2 damage off sword, plus wolves to get in for another 2 extra damage each turn.
Adan-
I keep reading your posts and wondering how you conclude what you do. I looked back through your post history and couldn't find you posting about piloting this deck at anything bigger than a 5 rounder.
I'm curious where you're drawing your conclusions from? I often disagree with how some of the more prolific (Madea) writers post here, but I know they have the reps in to back their choices.
Do you have big tournament experience to back your findings (not asking for winning records, just experience at competitive REL)? Because you make a lot of hard line and contrary statements about how to build and pilot this deck that are hard to take seriously without some examples of experience to back your decisions.
In my experience, batterskull is not particularly effective against TNN it's more of a win-more card that resolves and does it's thing after you've already got the game locked down. Mostly TNN and BSkull just sit there staring at each other while our flyers get up an go. Having a second copy of a sword that lets me swing through TNN (SoFI and SoBM) seems like a much better option. Though I have little experience with SoBM as of yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
I don't think playing a terrible sword maindeck is worth it to improve one matchup.
I mentioned this in another thread, but I've been playing a BW variant with Kambal, Dark Confidants main and Pontiffs in the board for a while now. Pontiffs are fantastic vs that BUG deck.
I suggest people spend more time toying around with Kambal, the card is no joke, and against a lot of blue decks Kambal + Karakas is basically game over.
@iatee
Got a build to show. I agree Kambal is some nice stuff. The drain two is a real damper on most peoples gameplans, but the black splash always scares me due to making our mana base substantially more vulnerable to wasteland. Might be better to just go up to 3 caverns to make Kambal playable in mono white?
If I were taking it to a tournament tomorrow, I'd play something like this:
4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 SfM
4 Flickerwisp
2 Kambal
2 Bob
2 Revoker
2 Recruiter
1 Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader
Skull/Jitte/Sofi
4 Stp/Vial
2 Cavern
3 Karakas
5 Fetch
2 Scrubland
3 Plains
4 Port
4 Wasteland
SB
2 Path
2 Council's Judgment
1 Relic Warder
1 Containment Priest
1 Kambal
2 Ethersworn
2 Pontiff
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Palace Jailer
2 Rest in Peace
I think there are probably more good black cards to play, but the manabase isn't really designed to be heavy black. Wasteland isn't that scary - just fetch a Plains first.
Bob's lifeloss is often offset by Kambal's lifegain, so there's a nice balance there.
Vs TNN decks you'd have 2 CJ and 2 Pontiff post-board, which is reaching the point of 'maybe I actually have enough answers for TNN'
This build is a little softer to Blood Moon and Lands, but Lands is a matchup where we're allowed to lose some % points right now. And Kambal is pretty strong vs Lands - an x/3 that punishes them for casting Loam 8 times. Not as strong as Prelate, but the next best thing.
I might try a mono white list with heavy cavern doing something similar to what you have
Something like
Creatures 26:
4 Mom
4 SFM
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia
3 Revoker
2 Recuiter
1 Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Kambal
1 Serra Avenger
Non Creature Spells 11:
4 Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 SoFaI
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
Lands 23:
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
9 Plains
Sorry I haven't responded to a bunch of stuff on here; I've been spending a ton of time testing three formats for this event.
SoBaM is floating in and out of my 75 at the moment. It is sideboard slot 15 if it makes it, or card 16 if it doesn't. The card is great against BUG, but has limited utility elsewhere. I've received some very positive playtesting data from people using it (and a couple of hilarious photos), but it was an awkward enough draw sometimes that it probably shouldn't be maindeck. I 100% do not regret spending my time testing it. If I run it, it will because I think it is correct for the tournament, not to try and prove that it is good. BUG decks of various flavors are probably sitting at 15-18% of the metagame (depending on what data you want to look at), so playing a bullet isn't the worst idea.
I'm unsure of what exactly I'll end up playing in Baltimore. I've been playing Crusader-heavy builds (3-4) in the last couple of days, which has given me the percentages I want (i.e. very good, not just favored) against BUG without having to run SoBaM. The Vial "curve out" doesn't happen as much in four Crusader builds, but the equipment (especially maindeck SoWaP) feels insane in that build. In all likelihood, I'll end up with something about 2-3 cards off from where I was at in Louisville.
Kambal was a card I wanted to test, but did very little with. If any of you get any notable finishes with the card, I'll update my black splash primer.
Hi @ll,
I am on this list at the moment.
//NAME:
3 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Plateau
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mother of Runes
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
I am quite happy with this 75 at the moment. I took it to our monthly tournament with a 3-2 result. Wins were: 4C Delver, SnT (Sneak) and Dark Threshold. Lost to: Elves and Goblins (Didnīt play Sword of F&I at all at the tournament) After the tournament put Sword of F&I in the main and put Batterskull in the SB and played the posted list. In our weekly testing group I played against Jund, DnT (Mono White), DnT (Eldrazi + Sol Lands), Aggro Loam, Team America and won all matches. As iatee mentioned a few weeks ago, maybe itīs time to give RW DnT a try again.
Cheers
Well, if you searched my post history you might have noticed I've been following and playing this format for 10 years already, and I played Death and Taxes in at various Ovino torunaments in Milano, in Turin, at BoM series and the annual big tournament in Frankfurt already (and I also posted a short report somewhere where the 5-2-1 top16 finish was documented, beating 3 Grixis Delver, 1 Mirror, 1 Burn deck, losing against OmniSneak nutdraw and Elves and going into timeout against Aggroloam).Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin
In Milano I went 5-1, got paired down against some weird Eldrazi-12Post thing and lost to cards like Ugin and Emrakul, the Promised End.
Anyway, I don't think your point here is any relevant, because multiple 4 or 5 round tournaments can still accumulate to a significant sample size. And I mean, that should be plausible, Legacy isn't as big as in the past anymore where we had monthly 6 round tournaments around the corner. I don't document my data as in-depht as others, but I'll rather question someone who's gathering his data from a kitchen table session than from the one who's playing it on tournaments of all kind of sizes because you also have to question the level of the testing partners. I have a friend that I can beat with anything because he sucks. So even if I play 8-2 in matches against him, it might not be any significant and the matchup not good at all.
You are the one contradicting yourself here, my point was that Batterskull sits there and keeps a singleton TNN at bay because they ARE staring at each other. And in the meanwhile you can squeeze through some damage via flyers or maybe even a few other creatures that make for bad blockers. A Batterskull turns a TNN into a very bad attacker because you'll gain back the damage it causes, and at the same time is close to impossible to remove for the TNN BUG list.Quote:
In my experience, batterskull is not particularly effective against TNN it's more of a win-more card that resolves and does it's thing after you've already got the game locked down. Mostly TNN and BSkull just sit there staring at each other while our flyers get up an go. Having a second copy of a sword that lets me swing through TNN (SoFI and SoBM) seems like a much better option. Though I have little experience with SoBM as of yet.
And the same applies to Grixis Delver lists running TNN, I already played a couple of those by now.
Wanna share your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Edit: nvm found it :D
Im not looking to argue about your statements on card choices, just asking where you draw your data from. I don't know any of you, so I like to know where the info is coming from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
For the batterskull discussion: I find that having a Bskull across from TNN is often not advantageous, as I would almost always prefer the TNN be attacking me and providing no bad blocking scenarios. I've found more often that an attacking TNN is the safest as our deck can (in my opinion) utilize life totals much better than other creature decks. I would regularly trade 3 from a TNN to allow me to swing back for 2 against a deck that is paying life to fetch, FOW etc. When we sit and stare, more decks than not are brainstorming/pondering/digging for ways to get ahead, while we are (less so now with recruiter) drawing dead attackers to a blocking TNN, so unless we can draw to a quick Alpha strike opposing decks will pull ahead due to cards selection.
FYI: unless TNN BUG variants start repping >30% of the meta, I'm not planning on sleeving up SoBM even for testing and I don't side out BSkull currently, I definitely do not fetch Bskull first in the match up
TNN and Batterskull stare-offs are always an advantage to you because you have more live topdecks for additional equipment and threats and whatnot. The only real problem is the TNN player topdecking DRSs and Jittes, both of which can be remedied with late game Prelates (even better vs the BUG decks because naming two hits Jitte and Decay), Revokers just for the sake of shutting down DRSs and Jittes and of course a Recruiter of the Guard's squadron hawk mode/additional SFM for SOFI.
To be fair all of my TNN experiences involves me resolving a Batterskull and squeezing my way out because my opponent was unable to apply additional pressure while every non-mana card topdeck of mine is live. I usually play around opposing Jittes before I continue developing my board. My experience is that their TNNs stay back on defense more often regardless of whether your Batterskull is in play or not because of their lighter threat density.