[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

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Alternatively I was thinking of going uber tempo and play Sinkholes.

4x DRS
4x Bob
4x Tarmogoyf

3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Vindicate
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

4x Wasteland
7x Fetch
4x Duals
4x Basic
3x utility lands

It doesn't seem bad, but it could also be terrible in the current metagame. I want to splash Mana Tithe so badly, the jank-loving spirit is strong...

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I love Eva Green too! The speed... but it always got weird(slow) when you introduced another color.

I also think it would be a good idea to focus on another archetype modes (aggro, tempo, control, etc), instead trying to force the mid-ranged version that didn't really do too well in the past. The other BGx decks out-fairing the standard lists for a while now and more things are being made for them... not so much us anymore. (they've also go more hands to test but that's another issue all together)

I've also been wondering, if troll Acetic would be a better option for the 3cc slot. It's been souls for a while but that forces us to keep the SFM + equipment. It'd free up about 8 slots to adjust your style... room for tithe :wink:

Yeah, I've toyed with tempo versions before, even going as deep as Nimble Mongoose. Without the cantrips that falls flat though. I really think Mana Tithe could do some serious damage alongside Sinkhole/Vindicate/Wasteland. I would probably need another library, probably play that over the loam.

I'll have to test it. The Mom version seems very good as well, just because Mom allows for mid-range matchups to grind easier.

I don't think that sinkhole is very good right now because DRS is a card. It's just not worth it to invest 2 mana to sinkhole your opponent when it's so easy for them to recover just on the top of DRS. I tried playing a bunch of eva green in the metagame and it just felt horrible. You win the delver matchups because you are the mono removal spell deck, but absolutely slaughtered by any midrange/control deck. I actually think that the SFM engine is really powerful right now and it's one of the best things you can be doing in a rock deck. It gives you both a way to stabilize games and allows you to grind with either batterskull or sofai.

I've been playing a more DGA style of Rock deck and it's been pretty decent. I still like DGA a little more but having goyf as a clock has been stellar. I think that a lot of the problems that rock has right now is that it plays fairly almost to a point of a fault. While this is fine for our blue rocking playing amigos since their cantrips can find whatever they are looking for long game we really don't have that luxury. So to counteract some of that i've thrown in chrome moxes to give me a tempo boost in some draws, it's not ideal since cards like goyf don't do anything turn 1 but powering out anything else is excellent.

2 Bayou
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Scrubland
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Dark Confidant
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Swamp
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lingering Souls
1 Plains
1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karakas
2 Sylvan Library
1 Forest
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Palace Jailer

2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fatal Push
2 Containment Priest
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Maelstrom Pulse

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I finally looked at Thalia, HC...I don't think she's anywhere near powerful enough for this deck. In light of Tarmogoyf sometimes being the *worst* creature, this card has no real advantage that it offers. Having things EtB tapped is great for tempo, but rock is at heart a midrange deck. We can play the tempo game but we can also play the midrange value plan and more often do.

I've been thinking about splashing Mom in here again...the metagame is really fair ATM and Mom busts fair matchups open. This was my theoretical list before I got distracted with other projects:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Vindicate
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
usual stuff

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Youre opting for Mom + Scullers instead of a stoneforge mystic package, which I dont think is worth it IMO.

Initial thoughts on Last Hope have been very positive. Drew her vs Aluren and just picked off Strixes, Recruiters, shrunk Shardless. Definitely keeping her over the 3rd veil for now.

Garruk Relentless Im still iffy about. Havent drawn him yet and never really reached a boardstate where I really wanted him either. Jury is still out for Garruk.

To continue with Garruk, do people think Gideon is better? Still churns out 2/2s but can make an emblem to pump spirits, beats with a fast clock, and can survive a Truename/Delver hit.

Elspeth is also another option, but 1/1s seem mediocre. On the otherhand, Serras Embrace a turn is strong.

WW2 seems rough to cast though, which makes me lean towards Garruk.

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Originally Posted by KoDiamonds

Youre opting for Mom + Scullers instead of a stoneforge mystic package, which I dont think is worth it IMO.

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Probably not, I agree. It's a way for me to play my pet card (Sculler) and have it be good with Mom instead of just a small tempo swing. Sculler being an artifact feeds Tarmogoyfs, but it's likely not ideal. It really helps in the combo matchups, that's for sure, and with Mom it wouldn't be dead against fair/removal heavy decks. I'll probably just stick to SFM x3/Jitte/Bskull. I don't have Sword of Fire and Ice, but I don't think it's that crucial. The other list I mentioned is what I would take to a tournament tomorrow, the Mom/Sculler idea is just for testing.

How has Chrome Mox been? I feel like all of our cards are good enough that getting a Mox isn't enough of an exchange. An extra Bob/SFM is fine to pitch, but I can't imagine the card loss being worth the tempo boost. What would we play t1 for 2 mana that would be worth it? Hymn to Tourach? Dark Confidant? I'm skeptical. Confidant is the best option, or Sylvan Library, so you could recoup the card loss. Only playing 2 seems safe enough, but it's definitely worse than even a land in the late game.

Here is what I am debating playing in February. I'm not sure I have combo covered well enough out of the board, and I'm still iffy on the slots left open for Choke. It just feels weird to *not* play Choke in the board, honestly. I have been in favor of ZPersecution over Golgari Charm in a deck with Lingering Souls, but I can see the value of the enchantment removal/regenerate functions.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

3x Thoughtseize
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Library
3x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Vindicate

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Treetop Village
4x Wasteland
1x Urborg

Sideboard
1x Karakas
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Containment Priest
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Sylvan Library
2x open

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

How has Chrome Mox been? I feel like all of our cards are good enough that getting a Mox isn't enough of an exchange. An extra Bob/SFM is fine to pitch, but I can't imagine the card loss being worth the tempo boost. What would we play t1 for 2 mana that would be worth it? Hymn to Tourach? Dark Confidant? I'm skeptical. Confidant is the best option, or Sylvan Library, so you could recoup the card loss. Only playing 2 seems safe enough, but it's definitely worse than even a land in the late game.

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I've really liked it, although I mostly end up pitching Goyfs, extra discard or something kind of bad in the matchup. My list is also modeled a little more after a DGA than your traditional rock list. I'm very much a big fan of small tempo boosts in certain matchups. Those chrome moxes really should be mox diamonds, but i'm not really sure what to cut in order to add the lands needed to support 1-2 mox diamonds.

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Originally Posted by CptHaddock

I've really liked it, although I mostly end up pitching Goyfs, extra discard or something kind of bad in the matchup. My list is also modeled a little more after a DGA than your traditional rock list. I'm very much a big fan of small tempo boosts in certain matchups. Those chrome moxes really should be mox diamonds, but i'm not really sure what to cut in order to add the lands needed to support 1-2 mox diamonds.

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I've always been on the DGA side of the spectrum as well, which is where I originally got the Scullers. Before I had my set of Goyfs I was playing 4x Sculler in their place, and I would curve Thoughtseize into Sculler into Hymn and wreck a lot of decks (this was just around the time Deathrite Shaman was printed.) Old data is no way to build a current deck though. The scullers could become a 3rd Hymn and a 2nd Library main. It's probably correct to do that, honestly, I just love Sculler! I'm not a pro player, so fun-factor plays more into my card choices than it probably should.

Mox Diamond would only really be good if you were also dedicated to some sort of Loam synergy. Aggro-loam is a real deck, and it's a great way to take advantage of the fast mana MDiamond can give you. In this sort of 'good stuff Junk/DGA' style of deck I feel that all of the cards need to really pull their weight in a big way, and just playing the spells that do the best job is the way to do that. Mox speeds it up, but at what expense? I don't even know what I'd cut for 1 Chrome Mox, let alone 2 copies. Dark Confidant is the worst in multiples...but the best thing to do is t1 Dark Confidant.

Now that I have your attention, how do you feel about 3 copies of SFM? I have always done 2-3 copies, never 4, simply because with Tarmogoyf the need for Batterskull as a beefy threat gets smaller, and I didn't want dead cards in the late game (a 1/2 for 2 mana is silly, to say the least.) That might open up another redundant card for Chrome Mox. I think the general consensus of players, even with only 2 equips, is to play the full set of SFM. Curious on your take there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Here is what I am debating playing in February. I'm not sure I have combo covered well enough out of the board, and I'm still iffy on the slots left open for Choke. It just feels weird to *not* play Choke in the board, honestly. I have been in favor of ZPersecution over Golgari Charm in a deck with Lingering Souls, but I can see the value of the enchantment removal/regenerate functions.

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After sleeping on it, I may be back on the Choke train. Its probably the card thats most versatile in all the grindy Blue Matchups (since I feel like 4 mana walkers arent great in the Delver matchup, while I like Choke).


Im a huge proponent for Zealous Persecution. Golgari Charm not only kills your spirits, but Bobs as well. ZP also increases your clock in matchups like storm where it provides double duty (instead of just being an out to Empty).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Now that I have your attention, how do you feel about 3 copies of SFM? I have always done 2-3 copies, never 4, simply because with Tarmogoyf the need for Batterskull as a beefy threat gets smaller, and I didn't want dead cards in the late game (a 1/2 for 2 mana is silly, to say the least.) That might open up another redundant card for Chrome Mox. I think the general consensus of players, even with only 2 equips, is to play the full set of SFM. Curious on your take there.

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There was a discussion about the # of SFMs quite a few pages back when I started playing the deck. I dont remember the exact points, but I personally tweaked with the numbers and like 3. 4 just felt too much and 2 didnt feel enough. 3 was the happy medium IMO.

The 2nd Stoneforge always feels a little lackluster compared to the first some reason (similar to Bob), which is why both are 3 ofs in my personal list.

I don't think I will ever play less than 4 Confidants, but that's because I have an unhealthy fetish for Cabal Therapy. Extra Bobs are fantastic at doubling up Therapy.

My experience with Choke is that it is incredible against Stoneblade decks and Miracles, but just average against Delver/Bug Leovold/Czech Pile. The access to Abrupt Decay in those decks makes it a little less ideal. I do however still like it against Grixis Delver, which really only plays "islands." I'll probably board Choke, lol. The caliber of players at my LGS is fairly high as well, meaning that they are good at playing around Choke as well. Data may be skewed, not giving me a good idea against the average player.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I've always been on the DGA side of the spectrum as well, which is where I originally got the Scullers. Before I had my set of Goyfs I was playing 4x Sculler in their place, and I would curve Thoughtseize into Sculler into Hymn and wreck a lot of decks (this was just around the time Deathrite Shaman was printed.) Old data is no way to build a current deck though. The scullers could become a 3rd Hymn and a 2nd Library main. It's probably correct to do that, honestly, I just love Sculler! I'm not a pro player, so fun-factor plays more into my card choices than it probably should.

Mox Diamond would only really be good if you were also dedicated to some sort of Loam synergy. Aggro-loam is a real deck, and it's a great way to take advantage of the fast mana MDiamond can give you. In this sort of 'good stuff Junk/DGA' style of deck I feel that all of the cards need to really pull their weight in a big way, and just playing the spells that do the best job is the way to do that. Mox speeds it up, but at what expense? I don't even know what I'd cut for 1 Chrome Mox, let alone 2 copies. Dark Confidant is the worst in multiples...but the best thing to do is t1 Dark Confidant.

Now that I have your attention, how do you feel about 3 copies of SFM? I have always done 2-3 copies, never 4, simply because with Tarmogoyf the need for Batterskull as a beefy threat gets smaller, and I didn't want dead cards in the late game (a 1/2 for 2 mana is silly, to say the least.) That might open up another redundant card for Chrome Mox. I think the general consensus of players, even with only 2 equips, is to play the full set of SFM. Curious on your take there.

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I tried sculler in my initial DGA builds ages and absolutely hated them. I feel like they often tempt you into plays where you get blown out by removal spells against fair decks. They're very good against combo since it's basically a clock + disruption all in 1. I feel like with the way the format is right now, a 2/2 take the opponent's removal spell from their hand isn't very good.

Really? I love confidant i'll cast one even on some sketch life total, on occasion you get unlucky with hits but on average you're making taking like 1-2 off them. The tempo plays that you are getting from chrome mox are basically SFM, Confidant, Hymn or Double Discard. Really the idea is just abusing fast mana to some degree. I think that a lot of the problems that I have had with this deck and DGA are with hands that don't really abuse any mechanics. The ones where I go turn 1 discard, turn 2 SFM/Confidant just don't cut it anymore.

I don't have any math or anything behind this but 3 copies has been fine for me. I just copy Wilkin's DGA lists and do less well than him. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I don't think I will ever play less than 4 Confidants, but that's because I have an unhealthy fetish for Cabal Therapy. Extra Bobs are fantastic at doubling up Therapy.

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I agree Confidant is legitimately one of the best cards in the game. If you're looking for a card that has a high impact against fair blue decks i'd recommend palace jailer. That card does a lot of what rock wants their cards to be doing as well.

I agree on Sculler's usefulness in the format ATM. I will just be jamming more Hymns/Decays. I'll hold onto the Scullers for a more combo-heavy metagame. Honestly, the only thing slightly keeping me from jamming this deck in a February tournament is the fact that I feel the Punishing/Groves engine is so good right now. Maybe Bob/Library are enough to just feed more goodies and I don't need the repeatable engine.

Based on your feedback, I'm going to splash in 1x Chrome Mox, probably in place of a Lingering Souls. The deck naturally falls into a 2-mana jam so turning those 2-drops into essentially 1-drops seems very good.

So:

-2 Sculler
-1 Lingering Souls

+1 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Chrome Mox

EDIT:

Brandon Chang's recent list, he got top 16 at a CFB 4K

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18312&d=313616&f=LE

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Brandon Chang's recent list, he got top 16 at a CFB 4K

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18312&d=313616&f=LE

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Wahoo! Abzan showing!

I really like his configuration of discard. Having 3 Thoughtseize + 3 Hymns main with a 4th Hymn in the side. Seems better than my configuration of 4 Thoughtseize 3 Hymn main. Im going to cut Chains and Choke for a 4th Hymn. Gideon will probably fill the last slot but Ill probably play with that particular 75th card.

Heres my current list that I will be testing.
Lands (22)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (10)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution

Back up to 2 Librarys since that card just wins games for us.

The Gideon slot is really up in the air for me. I really want the slot to be something for grindy games, INCLUDING delver. Bitterblossom is an option but with Bobs and Librarys, having yet another source of lifeloss seems dangerous.

Tireless Tracker is cute but seems slow.

A 4th Lingering Souls seems solid, but boring. Id love some ideas, and I will report back with more matchup results.

Ps: Last Hope has been stellar.

My list is very similar. Library had always been the nuts for me. I think 3 souls is fine, but I will never register a rock deck with less than 4 targeted discard.

I keep trying to squeeze in a vindicate, but I want 3x abrupt decay and 4x swords.

I'm back on choke, it's still one of the best blowouts against blue. I reeeeeeaaallly want to get scavenging ooze into my sideboard, but just no room. Testing engineered explosives, possibly Deed again if I keep running into Young Pyromancer (card is hard to beat.)

I also think that 4-mana pw's are kind of a waste of sideboard space. I just don't think singletons will ever make a significant impact in a 5+ round tournament. Other singletons are ways to augment an already established plan in the main.

I'll post my list in a little while, for reference.

EDIT:
4x DRS
4x Bob
4x Goyf
3x SFM

3x Thoughtseize
1x Therapy
3x Hymn
3x Decay
4x StP
1x Jitte
1x Bskull
3x souls
2x Lili of the Veil
2x Library

4x Waste
4x verdant catacombs
3x Windswept heath
1x marsh Flats
2x Scrub
1x bayou
1x Savannah
1x karakas
1x urborg
2x swamp
1x Plains
1x forest

side
2x surgical
2x canonist
1x containment priest
2x choke
2x Pithing Needle
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Zealous Persecution

Still want to somehow get Teeg in there, testing EE over another Deluge, kind of want a Nihil Spellbomb in there over a Needle but I think Sneak/Show will be out in full force at my next tournament. Needles are good against them. Again, I think Scooze could really great, possibly breaking open mid-range mirrors and having inevitability against decks like Dredge/Reanimator.

I welcome your thoughts on my list, more than willing to adjust if the argument is sound. I ended up leaving Mox out...it's just too low-impact where I only have 1, and the tradeoff in grindy mathups is just too risky (in my humble opinion.) Too many ways to build this thing!

Solid 75.

Choke has always felt a little underwelming so let me know once you start testing how it feels.

I would up the number of Containment Priests to 2 if youre expecting a lot of S&S. Ive liked 2 personally.

If I don't play Choke, what do you recommend? I did some gauntlet testing (not real matchups) and it was very good against Grixis Delver. It has always pulled its weight against miracles (2 locals play the new version.)

I have typically played a Loam in my sideboard, it generally helps with grinding matchups. I could easily see a 2nd Priest, I only have 1 but it's easy to nab another before the tournament on the 17th happens. Alternatively I could just jam a pair of Scooze, which I want to get in there anyways. I am also thinking of boarding in Tidehollow Sculler x2, which is incredible against the combo matchups (rock is typically weak to Storm.)

I am going to stick to 2x Deluge over the Explosives...it's just more efficient in most cases.

So my board is looking like this:

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Containment Priest
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Open (Choke, Scooze, Sculler, Loam, Suggestions?)

I feel like there is very little to bring in against the blue matchups. Maybe that's fine. Combo has always been a concern like Storm and S&T, sometimes burn gives the deck trouble. I think DRS/Jitte/Bskull in the main are pretty great at grinding out burn, and Tarmgoyf races very nicely. Needle/Priest/Extraction for S&T, Canonist/Surgical/Sculler for Storm (if I go sculler.)

What's your thinking on including Grafdigger's Cage? Reanimator/Storm/GSZ?

Whats better than Choke? Thats been my mission the past month. Maybe that slot should be dedicated to nonblue decks if Choke is the best we can do. Im probably back on the Choke Train for now.

I like Deluge a ton. Dealing with TrueName/Leovold/sweeping up pesky Strixes/etc, all for 3 mana (compared to 4-6mana) puts it over the top.

Cage is mainly for all the reanimator online on top of being great vs elves (GSZ/NO). I like 1 in the board. Vs storm you have to watch out. TES is less reliant on Past in Flames so I dont even board it in in that matchup.

Burn is really hit/miss. The way our deck is configured, its hard to board out all the bad cards in the matchup. Going DRS->Hymn->goyf wins games but having lingering souls, SOFI, bobs in hand make it awkward.

For the last 2 slots, id consider a Choke, a Surgical, or a Hymn. Dont think you can go wrong with any combination of 2/3. Dont feel like you arent bringing in a lot vs blue decks since you dont need to. Were already favored. Our board should honestly be mostly dedicated to combo since we can beat blue decks main alone.

Going with Choke or Sculler. I lean towards Sculler, it's very good in some matchups, even the blue ones because it causes them to expend more reaources.

Another option is possibly Tireless Tracker. But 22 lands makes me reluctant...

@Mr Safety, between the 2, Id much prefer Choke. The ceiling in Choke is much higher, which is what I want from my sideboard cards.