Miracle Control

What are people's thought about Entreat versus other wincons in a field with lots of Vendilion Cliques? My local scene was glutted with Shardless BUG and Miracles, so last week we saw several Stoneblade lists (UWR and Esper), all playing 2+ Vendilion Clique. Obviously resolving a large EtA is almost always game over against these lists, but I found it hard to actually force them through in the right spot. They apply enough pressure that you can't take forever to set things up, and when you do try to go for EtA, between their Cliques and Counter magic, things were challenging.

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Originally Posted by presquepartout

What are people's thought about Entreat versus other wincons in a field with lots of Vendilion Cliques? My local scene was glutted with Shardless BUG and Miracles, so last week we saw several Stoneblade lists (UWR and Esper), all playing 2+ Vendilion Clique. Obviously resolving a large EtA is almost always game over against these lists, but I found it hard to actually force them through in the right spot. They apply enough pressure that you can't take forever to set things up, and when you do try to go for EtA, between their Cliques and Counter magic, things were challenging.

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This is a place where Red Elemental Blast really shines, especially in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage. Entreat is the de-facto win condition in the midrange matchups. A lot of times, people will sink too much mana into an Entreat. I like playing the control game, answering threats, and cleaning up the little dudes, TNN, etc. with Terminus all at once. Once you establish a solid mana base (6 or 7 lands) and get into the late game, you can take it over because you have better bombs and better countermagic (at least wrt Esper stoneblade). Entreating for 2 w. 6 lands in play gives you plenty of flexibility to answer your opponent as long as you've been filtering your draws and shaping your hand to do so.

Yeah, I assumed EtA was still the best thing to be doing, and likely was just seeing too small of a sample. In my two matches against UWR, I couldn't find Terminus for the life of me.

I've basifally just taken Schrodinger's list and put Mentors in it.

Or did I? I'll have to look through it to find out.

Wow. I made a joke so bad it killed a whole deck.

3-0'd an FNM last night with my previous list, but -1 Dig, +1 Dack Fayden. Sideboard -1 Path, -1 Clique, -1 Keranos, +3 Meddling Mage. Played against Affinity in R1. I ended the match by Dack Faydening his Plated Memnite and him having nothing else to equip it to. R2 I played against Grixis Pyromancer. I boarded out a Jace and ended up killing him with the one I had left. R3 was against Storm. I misplay a Meddling Mage and name Ad Nauseum in G2. Their hand is triple Decay with no Green. Draws Lotus Petal and it gets Balanced. Super close on both post board games, as I kept land-light hands in G1/2, and flooded a little on G3, but managed to get there with Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, Mentor.

I am really liking Mentor. It allows us to play a game with so few lands and still just make a threat and won the game before our opponents can take over.

Newer miracles player here, but not new to Legacy. Are there any good articles on sideboarding strategies for Miracles? I've read a lot of the posts in this thread, but I was looking for more of an update collection of sideboarding tips and tricks.

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Originally Posted by exallium

This is a place where Red Elemental Blast really shines, especially in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage. Entreat is the de-facto win condition in the midrange matchups. A lot of times, people will sink too much mana into an Entreat. I like playing the control game, answering threats, and cleaning up the little dudes, TNN, etc. with Terminus all at once. Once you establish a solid mana base (6 or 7 lands) and get into the late game, you can take it over because you have better bombs and better countermagic (at least wrt Esper stoneblade). Entreating for 2 w. 6 lands in play gives you plenty of flexibility to answer your opponent as long as you've been filtering your draws and shaping your hand to do so.

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it depends on the entreat. i will very rarely go for an entreat on my own draw step. 90% of my entreats are triggered on their end step off a brainstorm or top so that i can sink more mana into them without lowering my shields during a critical period

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

I've basifally just taken Schrodinger's list

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as long as you dont take his cat, you are golden.

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Originally Posted by skyout

Newer miracles player here, but not new to Legacy. Are there any good articles on sideboarding strategies for Miracles? I've read a lot of the posts in this thread, but I was looking for more of an update collection of sideboarding tips and tricks.

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Hey and welcome!

I'd advise you to click through the links in my signature. Some articles are older, some aren't. Most should contain things to learn, though. Let me know how you liked them after you gave them a read!

Greetings

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Originally Posted by Phelix

as long as you dont take his cat, you are golden.

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I'm going to replace them for an Ajani at am FNM to troll the shit out of people.

What's the plan against Food Chain combo? Obviously Terminus is our best card against them, but do I bother FoW'ing a Manipulate Fate? Or do I save my FoW for Food Chain and/or Misthollow out of exile?

There are some MU's you'll just have to figure out as you go. Food Chain is a deck most people have never played against. Go and find the Food Chain thread, and see what people are saying about their MU against us is the best way.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

What's the plan against Food Chain combo? Obviously Terminus is our best card against them, but do I bother FoW'ing a Manipulate Fate? Or do I save my FoW for Food Chain and/or Misthollow out of exile?

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The goal: keep food chain off the table, set up CB, then float 3 and 4. By floating 4, Griffin will never be relevant. 3 For food chain for obvious reasons. The odd ball is genesis hydra, which require some attentions even when you are floating 3 and 4.

The most important thing is to keep food chain off the table. Say food chain hits the table somehow, then you are under the pressure to stop the Griffin/DRS interaction to keep Griffin from re-entering the exile zone. You can do so by spending creature removal on DRS and block Griffin using Clique.


To answer your question, there is no rule about countering fate. I would counter that card, but not using FoW, and not exposing myself to a Food Chain follow-up.

We had our Saturday night Legacy today and I went 3-0 with pretty much the list I had posted earlier. Beat burn 2-1, dark maverick 2-1, and sneak and show 2-0. Deck felt really good. Played some before the event against shardless bug and death & taxes and did very well as well + had a legacy night at a friends house on Friday and the list performed really well. The Thopter Sword package performed very well and won me a few games by itself. I do like this inclusion over the 2nd Entreat and some finnicking on the numbers (say over Clique/Karakas in the main). Cliques were very good out of the SB...I may want to go up to 3 honestly.

Oh, one thing to mention. The LGS that hosts legacy on Saturday does 45minute rounds, so it really makes you play more efficiently to get your games in, something I think helps a lot for REL events. If you're practicing you should do 40 or 45 min rounds to get your play more fluid.

A friend of mine pointed out that, aside from the lifegain, Mentor is basically a 1-card Thopter/Sword combo. You're playing 4-Tops anyway, so Mentor just cuts the Thopter/Sword down to just X Mentors as your conbo finish. If you like Thopter/Sword, I would strongly suggest trying Mentor out in its slot, provided the rest of your list accomadates it.

Also, someone recently said something about Mentor making you play cards like Brainstorm and Ponder at inopportune times. I disagree. If you're Ponder or Brainstorming, it's because you're going for a lethal strike, or because you have the resources to spare. I recently made some EoT Brainstorms for random guys, but I had a spare Brainstorm in case anything went awry and I needed to top something for Counterbalance, or dig for something, or just pull Mentors out of Bolt range.

The first few times I played against Food Chain, it felt like a terrible matchup -- didn't help that I thought I was playing against Shardless. But the deck is a glasshouse, and if you counter the right thing (Griffin, Food Chain, or Manipulate Fate, depending on the board state), then the deck doesn't do anything. Just remember that Terminus is considerably weaker if they have Food Chain in play. Otherwise, play it a few times, and you'll quickly get the hang of how to play the matchup.

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Originally Posted by presquepartout

The first few times I played against Food Chain, it felt like a terrible matchup -- didn't help that I thought I was playing against Shardless. But the deck is a glasshouse, and if you counter the right thing (Griffin, Food Chain, or Manipulate Fate, depending on the board state), then the deck doesn't do anything. Just remember that Terminus is considerably weaker if they have Food Chain in play. Otherwise, play it a few times, and you'll quickly get the hang of how to play the matchup.

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Thanks for the input on your experience. What presquepartout says here brings up a general point to keep in mind: when playing Miracles, if you know how to attack the MU and play tightly, you will get rewarded with a win short of some REALLY bad variance or playing against of one of the few truly bad MUs (Eldrazi Post and Goblins from what I know). This is something I talk about in my upcoming report (which should be published by Eternal Central sometime this week I think. I sent it to them yesterday). In short, do your homework, practice, and your win percentage will go up in due time for whatever MU you're trying to make better.

Hi All,

My current list: I decided to cut the Ponders for more business spells and I have been very happy with it. Really doubtful about the SB, but Surgical Extraction, with Snapmage has been huge against Reanimator, Oozing and whatever. It also gets rid of Abrupt Decays as soon as you see the first.

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dig Through Time
1 Pyroblast
2 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
2 Entreat the Angels

SB: 1 Dig Through Time
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Containment Priest

I would strongl suggest uppin to 22 or 23 Lands. Without Ponders, you lack the ability to truly control your Draw Step without a Top, and so you're way more likely to screw, especially with the double Entreat. You also have 3 Balance/2 Counterspell, the Council's Judgement, and REB, which can make for some awkward colour requirements. With the large accompaniment of Miracles (6) and the additional Dig Through Time and Snapcaster Mages, you also just need a volume of mana to cast Spells.

I'll be honest; it doesn't look like you've even gained much over the Ponder lists. You've got maindecked Judgement and the REB which some of us have cut, but you don't seem to have really increased your actual power level.

So how badly does Meddling Mage on Abrupt Decay wreck GBx decks? (i.e. Shardless BUG, BUG Delver, Junk, Maverick, etc.)