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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
But this sort of design does disgust me a little. Besides Miracles, Lands, and most combo decks, the rest of the format is fair creature decks. Why make a card that hoses non-creature strategies? These are less than half of the format. I wouldn't mind if we also got more creature hosers. The last card printed that taxes your opponent's creatures was Lodestone Golem, and that was seven years ago.
It wasn't long ago that Maverick's dominance bordered on oppressive. Combo decks seemed to be at an all time low and the biggest three decks were fair, creature based agro/control (Maverick, Blade, and Thresh). I wouldn't underestimate the ability of WotC to warp a format in favour of creature strategies.
Those are two very interresting points to bring up and we sure know that WotC is pushing white hatebears for years. Near every set has their Thalia, Canonist, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Aven Minscensor, etc. looking back the last 7 years of development and its a right trait to push interaction with combo decks outside of blue counterspells and black discard to give the format more viable, strategic diversity, but with Sanctum Prelate they went too far, not only hossing Combo decks, but non-creature-spells in general at such an absurd, unsymmetric level. Its a maindeckable Chalice of the Void with Plows being the ONLY card these decks might run and is clashing with Prelate, so the opportunity cost is pathetic compared to Chalice and it doesn't even suffer from being an artifact in terms of removal, but goes to town with a 2/2 body after your opponent is being locked out from casting anything but creatures and mimic Modern with its "my creature Trumps yours" methodology.
Its ridiculous to nerf counterspells over a decade because "they are so unfun" but print a creature which locks out average of 12 cards from your opponents deck, which isn't something I consider "promoting interaction" between decks. Oh, you can also run 4 of them as Prelate isn't legendary and set them @1 & @2 so 80%+ of the format is locked out. The most disgjsting thing for me remains the fact that the card protects itself from removal while shutting off half the opponents deck.
P.S. Yo WotC, what about you applying powercreep to creature-removal too?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
P.S. Yo WotC, what about you applying powercreep to creature-removal too?
Yes, b/c good creature removal @1 mana is a perfect answer for Prelate. You crazy, crazy bastard.
Besides, there's already plenty of 1 mana creature removal. So what can WotC do to make it even more powerful? Make it cost 0 mana? Make it double as Wasteland-stand in? Abrupt Decay without the CMC <= 3 clause? Or with an extra Scry 2? Which still doesn't necessarily solve Prelate, by the way.
I guess it's an even better time to play Manaless Dredge than it already was. Casting spells is for pussies.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Yes, b/c good creature removal @1 mana is a perfect answer for Prelate. You crazy, crazy bastard.
Eh? Between Dread of Night, Seal of Fire and Dismember there is a lot of space for "1-mana-removal" which can dodge Prelate. Even Barbarian Ring is an option imo
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Yes, b/c good creature removal @1 mana is a perfect answer for Prelate. You crazy, crazy bastard.
Besides, there's already plenty of 1 mana creature removal. So what can WotC do to make it even more powerful? Make it cost 0 mana?
I could see Snuff Out making a comeback perhaps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I guess it's an even better time to play Manaless Dredge than it already was. Casting spells is for pussies.
True. I think the blue build (with FOW) would be the best version to fight D&T because of main-deck RIP.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I'd just like to say, this forum becomes much more enjoable if this thread is inactive (like now for 2 weeks). Gj all! :smile: :cool:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
So when do we get the next B&R announcement? Next monday? I want a format back where Miracles doesn't suck the fun out of everything, although my hope for bans is very slim.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
So when do we get the next B&R announcement? Next monday? I want a format back where Miracles doesn't suck the fun out of everything, although my hope for bans is very slim.
A week from today (Monday, Sept. 26)
I don't think a ban is coming though. There's an argument that the Miracles problem is "solved" by the community just accepting it as a given and only playing decks that are good against it, at least in paper.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
A week from today (Monday, Sept. 26)
I don't think a ban is coming though. There's an argument that the Miracles problem is "solved" by the community just accepting it as a given and only playing decks that are good against it, at least in paper.
Frankly I'd love to just see an unban, honestly.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
A week from today (Monday, Sept. 26)
I don't think a ban is coming though. There's an argument that the Miracles problem is "solved" by the community just accepting it as a given and only playing decks that are good against it, at least in paper.
Isn't that basically what's supposed to happen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Frankly I'd love to just see an unban, honestly.
No objections here.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
No objections here.
I don't particularly like how conservative they are in regards to things changing and so cards that were too strong might not be any more (i.e. possibly Survival of the Fittest).
The oddity is that they did the opposite in Vintage, where Gush was restricted and then unrestricted, seemingly out of the Blue.
I also think that there is little harm in trying out certain cards that never got a chance, like Mind Twist. If you go back, there were plenty of people who said Black Vise was going to end decks in Legacy. It never panned out. Same for Dragon. Now, maybe Mind Twist is different. Maybe it is too strong. But I think we should be allowed to find out.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I don't think Mind Twist is actually the most conservative option (I'd say that's probablyEarthcraft), but I think any of those or Frantic Search are reasonable choices. Search in particular I think has the potential to actually do something for the format while not allowing scary-broken things (are we really worried about Spiral Tide or Painted Stone?) and not carrying the risk of creating non-games like Mind Twist does.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I don't think Mind Twist is actually the most conservative option (I'd say that's probablyEarthcraft), but I think any of those or Frantic Search are reasonable choices. Search in particular I think has the potential to actually do something for the format while not allowing scary-broken things (are we really worried about Spiral Tide or Painted Stone?) and not carrying the risk of creating non-games like Mind Twist does.
Good point, Mind Twist was what came to mind first, but indeed (correct me if I am wrong, I am on my phone) Eathcraft has also never been legal in Legacy and indeed by any stretch of the imagination is a safer unban.
My point still is that we (that is the Legacy community) have never had the opportunity to determine the card's actual power-level in the meta-game.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that Twist was a bad idea. I absolutely agree with your basic point.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Good point, Mind Twist was what came to mind first, but indeed (correct me if I am wrong, I am on my phone) Eathcraft has also never been legal in Legacy and indeed by any stretch of the imagination is a safer unban.
My point still is that we (that is the Legacy community) have never had the opportunity to determine the card's actual power-level in the meta-game.
Ancestral Recall also never was legal, but that doesn't mean we have to test it to know it's stupid. The point is that this is not how WotC works. They don't unban cards which might end up being too good and stir up shit without any other reason than YOLO. They also don't unban cards which create miserable blowout experiences like Stripmine or Mindtwist.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Ancestral Recall also never was legal, but that doesn't mean we have to test it to know it's stupid. The point is that this is not how WotC works. They don't unban cards which might end up being too good and stir up shit without any other reason than YOLO. They also don't unban cards which create miserable blowout experiences like Stripmine or Mindtwist.
Obvious statements are obvious. It isn't as if I suggested unbanning Balance. The place where the power-level of Earthcraft and Ancestral Recall intersect is in a universe that I have no access to, so your point is certainly misplaced within the context of my quote.
My point is not that everything that was never legal in Legacy needs to be tried. Some things are horrendously and obviously unfit for Legacy and those cards are pretty obvious. Earthcraft and Frantic Search are most certainly not, in my opinion, even close to broken, let alone clearly so. While Mind Twist might be somewhat problematic, and I admitted such in my post, the idea that it is on par with Ancestral Recall is so disingenuous, I'm frankly unsure why I am even bothering to refute such a seemingly deliberate misrepresentation of my argument.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Lol, the strawmen are out to play already. Classic b/r thread.
What's the obsession with unbanning stuff like Mind Twist and Earthcraft? Goblin Recruiter is still on the list and that is well below the power level of those two cards. Also Goblins.
Nothing will change though and we all know it. Historically Wizards have only been forced to move when even the docile masses of Legacy are vomiting on the streets at the thought of playing against the offending cards, as seen with Misstep, Dig and Cruise. What's fucking absurd is that they will only unban cards as a form of consolation prize. Why do we have to wait for some abortion to come along and fist the format for 6 months before finally unbanning cards? I fail to see the logic. It's not even a consolation prize if you think about it anyway, because most people were happy to see Dig and Cruise gone. Why not intermittently give unbans when warranted instead of making me wait forever and then giving me a huge load of cream all over my face, only after we've been dragged through the mud of whatever piece of shit had to be banned.
Lettuce be cereal, they don't give a fuck about the format (cutting GPs down, and more than likely eventually to zero soon enough) and they "can't" change the reprint policy, so what's the hold up? Let's go, give me my fucking Recruiters, give the format Twist Back so it can continue to sit in binders and.. well earthcraft is debatable (the combo b/w this, top and mentor is vomit material though so let's not). More to the point, let's see actual change and get Survival back.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Obvious statements are obvious.
-snip-
I'm frankly unsure why I am even bothering to refute such a seemingly deliberate misrepresentation of my argument.
then tell me why this thread goes over the same cards over and over again if its so obvious for you?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
then tell me why this thread goes over the same cards over and over again if its so obvious for you?
Your statement that Ancestral Recall is broken is obvious. You statement that not every card that has ever been banned from the get-go of Legacy not needing testing is also obvious. That is the misrepresentation of my argument, because in no way was that what I intended by my statement about a small subset of cards (Mind Twist, Earthcraft and Frantic Search).
Why do people bring up the same cards? Perhaps because there is a real chance they aren't actually broken? People decried Black Vise as being too strong and making non-games. Still has yet to happen in any game of Legacy I have seen or heard about.
If you really consider the power level of Mind Twist to be equal or even close to equal with Ancestral Recall, there is little I can do to stretch my suspension of disbelief far enough to have a serious conversation with you. You have an idea that Mind Twist creates non-games, which it might from time to time, but fail to recognize that a deck playing turn 1 mana-ramp into Mind Twist and doesn't win the game on the spot while a deck playing mana-ramping spells Tendril of Agony wins the game on the spot. Why is one of those a perfectly acceptable "non-game" and the other totally unacceptable?
I'd much rather be Mind Twisted and be able to win off the top of my deck than lose on the spot.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Your statement that Ancestral Recall is broken is obvious. You statement that not every card that has ever been banned from the get-go of Legacy not needing testing is also obvious. That is the misrepresentation of my argument, because in no way was that what I intended by my statement about a small subset of cards (Mind Twist, Earthcraft and Frantic Search).
Point is that we know how Frantic Search works with HighTide and we know how MindTwist works in Elves for example. We did go over those countless times and there is zero gain for the format in potentially getting stripped of all your cards turn 2. How is that fun and positive for the Format as a whole which makes it worthwhile to unban the card other than just having one card off the list and risking miserable game experiences? The card reads "I win if i can make 5plus mana in the first two turns" and in that context its nowhere different to shit like Yawgmoths Bargain, which no one wants unbanned because of the blowout character and zero tradeoffs to run it (compared to AdNauseam)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Why do people bring up the same cards? Perhaps because there is a real chance they aren't actually broken? People decried Black Vise as being too strong and making non-games. Still has yet to happen in any game of Legacy I have seen or heard about.
honest opinion? Because they are either trolling or too dumb/lazy to read the last 10 pages of this thread.
For Black Vise the reason might be simply the metagame shift going away from greedy manabases as a result of the position of Chalice/Counterbalance in the format. Black Vise is dope if you can hold back your opponent from playing the game at their pace
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
If you really consider the power level of Mind Twist to be equal or even close to equal with Ancestral Recall, there is little I can do to stretch my suspension of disbelief far enough to have a serious conversation with you.
I did not compare the cards. I just said some cards like AR just do not testing in legacy to see they are unhealthy. It seems its you who thinks there is a big difference in leaving your opponent with 1 land and no hand in turn 2 with Mindtwist and dropping Bargain for a similar cardadvantage swing. I do not think either is healthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
You have an idea that Mind Twist creates non-games, which it might from time to time, but fail to recognize that a deck playing turn 1 mana-ramp into Mind Twist and doesn't win the game on the spot while a deck playing mana-ramping spells Tendril of Agony wins the game on the spot. Why is one of those a perfectly acceptable "non-game" and the other totally unacceptable?
probability and investment do matter. If you counter the MindTwist against Elves you still have to deal with the creatures, not so if someone storms off right into your FoW. Its also not the case that Storm runs ANY low-investment bomb cases aside the one-off-AD-Nauseam-already-in-hand one. Thats quite the difference when comparing scenarios with 4 Twists in Elves for example and current storm decks which not only need more mana to essentially win (compared to Twist) but also do not leave behind a board of creatures when failing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I'd much rather be Mind Twisted and be able to win off the top of my deck than lose on the spot.
win off a single landdrop made and no hand? How often do that happen to mark this a convincing argument that MindTwist is fair and creates exciting games so unbanning is worth it. Just to note: The Unban-camp is in the duty to convince WotC that the card is safe, not WotC proving the card is still bonkers and swingy (which I outlined)
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
then tell me why this thread goes over the same cards over and over again
Because I am not aloud to lock the thread and put us all out of our misery.
In other news. No changes are expected on all fronts, though I would like to see Pod, Preordain or Twin unbanned in Modern.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr Miagi
I'd just like to say, this forum becomes much more enjoable if this thread is inactive (like now for 2 weeks). Gj all! :smile: :cool:
But we were all so happy.. why oh why do I/we always find a way to check this thread :frown:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr Miagi
But we were all so happy.. why oh why do I/we always find a way to check this thread :frown:
Because masochism is a common trait of legacy player. Why do you think the second single deck thread with the most pages on this forum is Nic Fit?
The fact that the first one is miracles just shows that sadism is slightly more popular.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Point is that we know how Frantic Search works with HighTide and we know how MindTwist works in Elves for example. We did go over those countless times and there is zero gain for the format in potentially getting stripped of all your cards turn 2. How is that fun and positive for the Format as a whole which makes it worthwhile to unban the card other than just having one card off the list and risking miserable game experiences? The card reads "I win if i can make 5plus mana in the first two turns" and in that context its nowhere different to shit like Yawgmoths Bargain, which no one wants unbanned because of the blowout character and zero tradeoffs to run it (compared to AdNauseam)
And High Tide being a non-shit option is bad for the format? Im not convinced. Elves possibly having a chance versus Miracles is bad for the format? I'm not convinced. Mind Twist reading "I win if i can make 5plus mana in the first two turns?" I am not convinced. Even in your doomsday Elves-Mind Twist scenario where they vomit their hand onto the board and Twist the opponent, they still get blown out by a Terminus off the top. Speaking of which, Top is still live of Miracles went first and played on on turn 1.
No trade offs? Sure there is, the shit topdeck that is Mind Twist in the mid to late game, where you need board presence? The all-in nature of vomiting out your hand to make mana in hopes of Twisting them and all you get it 2 Blue cards, one named Force of Will and they lose one life? Or even better, return an Island to their hand and they discard a Daze?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
honest opinion? Because they are either trolling or too dumb/lazy to read the last 10 pages of this thread.
For Black Vise the reason might be simply the metagame shift going away from greedy manabases as a result of the position of Chalice/Counterbalance in the format. Black Vise is dope if you can hold back your opponent from playing the game at their pace
You believe that you have conclusively proven that Frantic Search and Mind Twist are irredeemably broken. I see no such evidence. Black Vise is a horrible card now, because Legacy decks are far too svelte and deft to be caught under such an effect with any regularity. Even if you pack your deck with Sinkholes and so on, there is no way to reliably pin your opponent down, Legacy decks in general are just too efficient to be held back like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I did not compare the cards. I just said some cards like AR just do not testing in legacy to see they are unhealthy. It seems its you who thinks there is a big difference in leaving your opponent with 1 land and no hand in turn 2 with Mindtwist and dropping Bargain for a similar cardadvantage swing. I do not think either is healthy.
There are plenty of things that a case can be made is "not healthy" for Legacy. But they exist. Yawgmoth's Bargain is absurd because it is a card draw engine, Mind Twist is nothing even vaguely like it, even if we count the "card advantage" swing. Even if you Mind Twist them for 7, there is no planet on which you would ever play Yawgmoth's Bargain and casually say, "I'll just take 7 cards."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
probability and investment do matter. If you counter the MindTwist against Elves you still have to deal with the creatures, not so if someone storms off right into your FoW. Its also not the case that Storm runs ANY low-investment bomb cases aside the one-off-AD-Nauseam-already-in-hand one. Thats quite the difference when comparing scenarios with 4 Twists in Elves for example and current storm decks which not only need more mana to essentially win (compared to Twist) but also do not leave behind a board of creatures when failing.
OK, so you have a board full of Elves and no cards in hand. Storm has a Graveyard full of gas and no cards in hand. Elves top decks a Natural Order or Storm top decks a Past in Flames. So, indeed, if you counter a Mind Twist, or an Ad Nauseum, you need something further to close out the game. Removal in the case of Elves, pressure/graveyard removal in the case of Storm. Hardly a huge difference. Are you implying that when Storm fails to go off the game is literally over?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
win off a single landdrop made and no hand? How often do that happen to mark this a convincing argument that MindTwist is fair and creates exciting games so unbanning is worth it. Just to note: The Unban-camp is in the duty to convince WotC that the card is safe, not WotC proving the card is still bonkers and swingy (which I outlined)
Nope, Mind Twist is not fair. Good cards in Legacy are not fair. That's the point. That's what makes it fun. If we all just swing 2/2's for 2 at each other, that's fair. And that's boring as hell. I want powerful shit, that's why I am not playing Standard or some other nonsense.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dte
Because masochism is a common trait of legacy player. Why do you think the second single deck thread with the most pages on this forum is Nic Fit?
The fact that the first one is miracles just shows that sadism is slightly more popular.
I think I need a St Andrews Cross. Anyone know of where I can find one? (Fits with my love of Stax.)
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Mind twist would see exactly 0 play in legacy, just like vise. And just like vise there are people that swear by its brokeness. I mean elves seriously? Why would elves want to twist with a board? Just GSZ or NO or even chord craterhoof or progenitus for actually winning with your board instead of getting massive card advantage . And If it's card advantage that you want there are like a billion cards you can play like the 2GGG Garruk
Frantic is more debatable but the era of X spells in legacy making big swings is deader than the Ban brainstorm Horse
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gheizen64
Mind twist would see exactly 0 play in legacy, just like vise. And just like vise there are people that swear by its brokeness. I mean elves seriously? Why would elves want to twist with a board? Just GSZ or NO or even chord craterhoof or progenitus for actually winning with your board instead of getting massive card advantage . And If it's card advantage that you want there are like a billion cards you can play like the 2GGG Garruk
Frantic is more debatable but the era of X spells in legacy making big swings is deader than the Ban brainstorm Horse
Vise isn't broken. I at least argued against the unbanning because it's strictly negative EV. Either it does nothing so 0 EV or reduces the enjoyability of games if it proves to be strong enough, negative EV. I don't see a scenario where Vise would have made the format more fun.
Luckily we got the best case scenario from the unban and Vise was too weak to do jack.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zombie
Vise isn't broken. I at least argued against the unbanning because it's strictly negative EV. Either it does nothing so 0 EV or reduces the enjoyability of games if it proves to be strong enough, negative EV. I don't see a scenario where Vise would have made the format more fun.
Luckily we got the best case scenario from the unban and Vise was too weak to do jack.
I don't understand how to calculate such EV. So, if you lose to it, it has negative EV, but doesn't winning with it give a positive EV for the person playing it? So, we are still at zero EV for the match? Or does losing to something generate more negative than winning does positive? In this case, we don't have a zero-sum game here, so there must be tons more negative EV floating around? Perhaps this is why people get so upset about Terminus?
Genuinely interested in how to calculate EV in these cases, it's something often bandied about, but I have never determined the formula to understand how to calculate it.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dte
Because masochism is a common trait of legacy player. Why do you think the second single deck thread with the most pages on this forum is Nic Fit?
The fact that the first one is miracles just shows that sadism is slightly more popular.
Spot on, spot on! :laugh:
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Who gives a shit about twist being "unfun". Legacy is fucking miserable as is. True Name is about as uninteresting or unfun as a card can be. Terminus is unfun because you can do all the work of developing a board and you chimp opponent whom you're porting and wasting can undo it all with a single white mana at instant speed. Show and Tell is unfun because it's just a stupid fucking card when you put in better Yawgs Bargain or actual untap I win creature. Natural Order Elves is easy for even terrible players to simply steal a game. Every deck at this point has a derpy oops I win stupid uninteractive uninteresting card. What's one more
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Who gives a shit about twist being "unfun". Legacy is fucking miserable as is. True Name is about as uninteresting or unfun as a card can be. Terminus is unfun because you can do all the work of developing a board and you chimp opponent whom you're porting and wasting can undo it all with a single white mana at instant speed. Show and Tell is unfun because it's just a stupid fucking card when you put in better Yawgs Bargain or actual untap I win creature. Natural Order Elves is easy for even terrible players to simply steal a game. Every deck at this point has a derpy oops I win stupid uninteractive uninteresting card. What's one more
The cognitive dissonance of Legacy players is absurd when it comes to stuff like this.
"herp, food chain goblins/survival/twist would just be TOO MUCH for me to handle. The rest of the format is fine though even though the end result of unbanning this would be the exact same thing, just served up either hot, cold or up my ass."
I playtested Survival of the Fittest tonight against Reaniderp and still lost, even with a hand of Survival, Big Game Hunter, KOTR (with Karakas in my deck) and lands in hand. WOW GRISELBRAND SO FUN AND SKILL TESTING. That stuff that's on the b/r thread though? Nah, way too op mate.
Gimme a fucking break.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
There are plenty of things that a case can be made is "not healthy" for Legacy. But they exist. Yawgmoth's Bargain is absurd because it is a card draw engine, Mind Twist is nothing even vaguely like it, even if we count the "card advantage" swing. Even if you Mind Twist them for 7, there is no planet on which you would ever play Yawgmoth's Bargain and casually say, "I'll just take 7 cards."
Is Bargain still broken? I don't see too many decks running around that would want to include it. The closest fit would probably be ANT and there it has to compete with Ad Nauseam which would be an interesting duel. Maybe I am horribly wrong but in the current fast meta, it feels safe to me.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croatoan
Is Bargain still broken? I don't see too many decks running around that would want to include it. The closest fit would probably be ANT and there it has to compete with
Ad Nauseam which would be an interesting duel. Maybe I am horribly wrong but in the current fast meta, it feels safe to me.
Meh, it probably isn't as broken as it once was. It is still completely degenerate and there is no way to "reasonably" use it. Either you abuse it, or you don't play it. While Griselbrand actually has a number of upsides to Bargain, there are downsides as well so it is close to a push. Sure Griselbrand can be easier to get into play, but he is also easier to get off the table, drawing in 7's is slightly less abusable, and so on. Academy Rector is still a card and StP aside, is an easier way to win a game with Bargain.
One thing that works against it is that it is still, no matter how you slice it, a degenerate card-draw engine. Such a thing is vastly different than Mind Twist, or Earthcraft, because everyone already knows that drawing cards is most often the best thing you can be doing to win a given game. Same reason why Gush isn't and shouldn't be Legacy legal. Could it be legal? I think it could be and simply be one of the many great options to put in play off Show and Tell. But we already have what is probably enough of those.
Mind Twist is a different dimension, Bargain is the same old, same old.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croatoan
Is Bargain still broken? I don't see too many decks running around that would want to include it. The closest fit would probably be ANT and there it has to compete with
Ad Nauseam which would be an interesting duel. Maybe I am horribly wrong but in the current fast meta, it feels safe to me.
"Broken" doesn't mean "legacy unsafe." We're already at the point where everything that costs more than 4 mana to get into play has to be a game win when it does in order to be legacy viable.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
When I think about Bargain taking the place of Ad in Strom I shudder a little. Maybe it's ok but if that comes off the list I want to see some testing first.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Bargain also goes in any SnT shell. DTT is quite comparable: total garbage in opening hand, and dead until turn 3...and that was just 2 cards from the top 7.
I have no problem with totally 'broken' magic as it is more fun [subjective]. Remember that 'broken' magic is overwhelmingly blue and black; so skipping over hurting fair and control strategies, you're also hurting the penetration of the three other colors in magic. No matter how positive that shift would be [subjective], it won't happen on the grounds of diminishing format diversity.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I completely disagree that DTT is comparable. Bargain in show and tell is completely useless without show and tell. With Griselbrand you can sneak that onto play. Not with bargain. With Dig you can cast it for two mana without a show and tell whole bargain rots in your hand doing actual nothing. Can't even pitch to force. Dream halls needs another black card in your deck (so another bargain) to cast it. I doubt it would be played in SnT at all. Yes it's a degenerate draw engine. Is it anymore degenerate than Ad Nauseam? Griselchimp? Glimpse? Enter the Infinite? Maybe the last one, but still. Storm is the only place that it would resemble degeneracy. And it's very difficult to say how good it would be because it would probably change the make up of what we see storm decks to be at least somewhat significantly because of its clause for drawing a card for a life versus ad nauseam caring about mana cost
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
When I think about Bargain taking the place of Ad in Strom I shudder a little. Maybe it's ok but if that comes off the list I want to see some testing first.
People play 5cc "pick a card" in that deck and we are considering if a 6cc "get all the cards" is playable? 1 AdNauseam vs. 4 Bargains? Being able to run FoW in your storm deck?
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Originally Posted by
H
And High Tide being a non-shit option is bad for the format? Im not convinced. Elves possibly having a chance versus Miracles is bad for the format? I'm not convinced. Mind Twist reading "I win if i can make 5plus mana in the first two turns?" I am not convinced. Even in your doomsday Elves-Mind Twist scenario where they vomit their hand onto the board and Twist the opponent, they still get blown out by a Terminus off the top. Speaking of which, Top is still live of Miracles went first and played on on turn 1.
I suspect you think that kind of game is desireable?
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Originally Posted by
H
No trade offs? Sure there is, the shit topdeck that is Mind Twist in the mid to late game, where you need board presence? The all-in nature of vomiting out your hand to make mana in hopes of Twisting them and all you get it 2 Blue cards, one named Force of Will and they lose one life? Or even better, return an Island to their hand and they discard a Daze?
you could make that kind of argument for drawing any lategame lands, any lategame discard, etc.. "What if they counter/remove it?" is no freaking argument, especially if there is zero opportunity cost
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Originally Posted by
H
You believe that you have conclusively proven that Frantic Search and Mind Twist are irredeemably broken. I see no such evidence. Black Vise is a horrible card now, because Legacy decks are far too svelte and deft to be caught under such an effect with any regularity. Even if you pack your deck with Sinkholes and so on, there is no way to reliably pin your opponent down, Legacy decks in general are just too efficient to be held back like that.
you have 762 pages of thread and hundreds of people arguing over the same cards, not just me. "I" dont have to prove they are broken, "you" have to prove they are save to get them unbanned.
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Originally Posted by
H
There are plenty of things that a case can be made is "not healthy" for Legacy. But they exist. Yawgmoth's Bargain is absurd because it is a card draw engine, Mind Twist is nothing even vaguely like it, even if we count the "card advantage" swing. Even if you Mind Twist them for 7, there is no planet on which you would ever play Yawgmoth's Bargain and casually say, "I'll just take 7 cards."
Does it make any difference if the CAs nature is positive or negative depending on the persepctive or if its +/-7 or +/-8? We are talking about burst plays which burry the opponent with the CA.
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Originally Posted by
H
OK, so you have a board full of Elves and no cards in hand. Storm has a Graveyard full of gas and no cards in hand. Elves top decks a Natural Order or Storm top decks a Past in Flames. So, indeed, if you counter a Mind Twist, or an Ad Nauseum, you need something further to close out the game. Removal in the case of Elves, pressure/graveyard removal in the case of Storm. Hardly a huge difference. Are you implying that when Storm fails to go off the game is literally over?
Its comical, that you cant differ the fact that Elves (in that scenario) have not only a clock but all the mana on the field, from storm having no mana to cast the topdecked PIF at all and neither a clock
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Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
The cognitive dissonance of Legacy players is absurd when it comes to stuff like this.
I playtested Survival of the Fittest tonight against Reaniderp and still lost, even with a hand of Survival, Big Game Hunter, KOTR (with Karakas in my deck) and lands in hand. WOW GRISELBRAND SO FUN AND SKILL TESTING. That stuff that's on the b/r thread though? Nah, way too op mate.
Gimme a fucking break.
I suspect you would have lost with Flash + Protean Hulk or Ritual + Necropotence or Ancestral Recall in your hand as well in that case. Does this mean the cards are safe?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Megadeus
I completely disagree that DTT is comparable. Bargain in show and tell is completely useless without show and tell. With Griselbrand you can sneak that onto play. Not with bargain. With Dig you can cast it for two mana without a show and tell whole bargain rots in your hand doing actual nothing. Can't even pitch to force. Dream halls needs another black card in your deck (so another bargain) to cast it. I doubt it would be played in SnT at all. Yes it's a degenerate draw engine. Is it anymore degenerate than Ad Nauseam? Griselchimp? Glimpse? Enter the Infinite? Maybe the last one, but still. Storm is the only place that it would resemble degeneracy. And it's very difficult to say how good it would be because it would probably change the make up of what we see storm decks to be at least somewhat significantly because of its clause for drawing a card for a life versus ad nauseam caring about mana cost
Sneak'n'Show is a different deck than OmniTell, featuring neither Sneak nor Grisel. In the hypothetical where DTT is banned and Bargain isn't, I don't think it's as clean an answer as to which way OmniTell pilots go. Either way, the fact remains that if you run SnT you do consider running this card. It needs to come down by turn 3 at the latest (which means Ritual deck or SnT).
It's not really about Bargain being the exact same as DTT, but they're close enough to get the same type of response from those who don't like unfair magic. We know how the community reacted to DTT, we know how it would react to a Bargain unban.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Dig Through Time did make Show and Ape a completely miserable deck, but the card was played in basically every archetype and was a main reason why it was so miserable. It made the blue dominance that much more. Would bargain make show and derp any more annoying and stupid than current cards already do? In the end it's still a deck that's trying to resolve show and tell, and if it does, you probably lose. Dig actually changed the game plan because it could be cast to find your 4 of card that you absolutely needed to find to win the game. Bargain is just slightly more, or maybe even less, powerful than a card that the deck already has access to.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I suspect you think that kind of game is desireable?
My desires are irreverent. The scope of the investigation isn't "make Magic more like I would want it" it is "examine the Legacy Banned List to see if there are things that can be taken off."
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Originally Posted by
Lemnear
you could make that kind of argument for drawing any lategame lands, any lategame discard, etc.. "What if they counter/remove it?" is no freaking argument, especially if there is zero opportunity cost
Opportunity costs are never zero. Ever. In an Eldrazi deck, it isn't a free roll that they run so many Sol-Lands, they run a large number of lands. And so there is an opportunity cost there that they may draw too many, or a string of them at a critical time. Same goes for Mind Twist. Run 4 so you can see them early? That is -4 Elves in your Elves deck that wants to cast Glimpse of Nature. That's not zero. It may be small, but it certainly isn't zero.
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Originally Posted by
Lemnear
you have 762 pages of thread and hundreds of people arguing over the same cards, not just me. "I" dont have to prove they are broken, "you" have to prove they are save to get them unbanned.
Indeed and looking back, people have been saying for years that Mind Twist is probably about as safe as Black Vise. So, what weight does that carry in the balance of the 762? I don't work at Wizards. No one at Wizards would ever listen to me. I don't have to prove anything. I am simply refuting your point that you have somehow proven Mind Twist to be irrevocably broken. You have stated your opinion and I have stated mine. None of us have the upper hand here, so stop making it seem like I am being irrational and you have some balance of truth on your side.
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Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Does it make any difference if the CAs nature is positive or negative depending on the persepctive or if its +/-7 or +/-8? We are talking about burst plays which burry the opponent with the CA.
So, by that logic, running a deck that would discard your opponent's hand is as good as one that would refill it's own? Sorry, there is a reason why Blue is the dominant color in Magic's history and it isn't because it often take cards out of an opponent's hand. But you already know this. There is no way you think that Ancestral Recall is the same printed as is, or if it said "Target player discards 3 cards." Sure, that's good, but you are saying it would be just as good?
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Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Its comical, that you cant differ the fact that Elves (in that scenario) have not only a clock but all the mana on the field, from storm having no mana to cast the topdecked PIF at all and neither a clock
I can differentiate. Indeed, Elves would be far better. And why shouldn't it be? Is there some bias where Elves has to be a shit deck? Why can't it have Mind Twist and have a chance to be the best deck in Legacy? Frankly none of that bothers me in the slightest.
And before you think I am some Elves player, I dislike the deck, I dislike playing it and I dislike playing against it. But my personal feelings are meaningless here, I am evaluating the playablity of Mind Twist. I wouldn't hold it back just because it makes a deck I don't like better.
