Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

I would strongl suggest uppin to 22 or 23 Lands. Without Ponders, you lack the ability to truly control your Draw Step without a Top, and so you're way more likely to screw, especially with the double Entreat. You also have 3 Balance/2 Counterspell, the Council's Judgement, and REB, which can make for some awkward colour requirements. With the large accompaniment of Miracles (6) and the additional Dig Through Time and Snapcaster Mages, you also just need a volume of mana to cast Spells.

I'll be honest; it doesn't look like you've even gained much over the Ponder lists. You've got maindecked Judgement and the REB which some of us have cut, but you don't seem to have really increased your actual power level.

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Yeah, he's a few cards off what I'm playing.

4 Jace
2 Clique
2 Snapcaster
2 Entreat the Angels

4 Counterbalance
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

22 Land (1 Karakas)

The reason in my mind is that Ponder is great against Delver and other creature-based decks, but against combo or the mirror, Clique is on a whole 'nother level. Cutting a Counterbalance maindeck diminishes that edge, since it's the best card in those matchups, and without Ponder, you're not going to have enough Snapcaster targets...not that regrowth on a Ponder at sorcery speed doesn't make me want to cry inside. I can't imagine anyone arguing that him dropping 3 Ponders for 2 clique and a Red Blast maindeck wasn't boosting his mirror winrate.

I'm actually curious why everyone isn't maindecking Red Blasts. In which tough matchups are you compromised because you drew a dead Red Blast? In this format I expect the good players to always come with blue decks, with just a handful of Stoneforge and Elf decks making it to the top tables. These are all favorable matchups.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I'm actually curious why everyone isn't maindecking Red Blasts. In which tough matchups are you compromised because you drew a dead Red Blast? In this format I expect the good players to always come with blue decks, with just a handful of Stoneforge and Elf decks making it to the top tables. These are all favorable matchups.

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Few weeks ago, I attended a small tourney at LGS. As it turned out, every round, my opponent would cast Dig at some point. This annoyed me. Hence going forward, I will go 3 StP, 1 Council, 1 Red Blast MD.

I've seen some lists not running Council MD. Well, Council's like a more diverse but slower StP, competing for the same removal slot in that sense.

I already play 22 lands as well (1 Karakas). The 23rd would be very sweet to have, yes..

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Originally Posted by Poron

Hi All,

My current list: I decided to cut the Ponders for more business spells and I have been very happy with it. Really doubtful about the SB, but Surgical Extraction, with Snapmage has been huge against Reanimator, Oozing and whatever. It also gets rid of Abrupt Decays as soon as you see the first.

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dig Through Time
1 Pyroblast
2 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
2 Entreat the Angels

SB: 1 Dig Through Time
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Containment Priest

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So you have decided to cut the consistency of Philips list while not adding the raw power that Joes one has to offer? That sounds like the worst of both worlds to me. Well done.

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Originally Posted by Poron

Hi All,

My current list: I decided to cut the Ponders for more business spells and I have been very happy with it. Really doubtful about the SB, but Surgical Extraction, with Snapmage has been huge against Reanimator, Oozing and whatever. It also gets rid of Abrupt Decays as soon as you see the first.

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dig Through Time
1 Pyroblast
2 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
2 Entreat the Angels

SB: 1 Dig Through Time
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Containment Priest

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How is a list with only 3 CB and no Ponders to set them up (and finding SDT), have a serious hot against storm? Because you can dig for one and Canonist via carddisadvantage aka Enlightend Tutor? Because you have turn 3 Clique? You give so much power AWAY here rather than gaining anything. Durdling with SCM, Pyroblast and Counterspells isn't the big play. I don't get Surgical Extraction on Decay if you have only 2 Counterbalance left in the deck after you 2-for -1 yourself (CB+SE) to get rid of them

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

So how badly does Meddling Mage on Abrupt Decay wreck GBx decks? (i.e. Shardless BUG, BUG Delver, Junk, Maverick, etc.)

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This is my next try. It's not something I'd obviously have done, and it depends on how they board. If they see Miracles w/Mentor and board the same way they normally do, I shouldn't be able to lose, but I have a great fear that with Mentor in my deck they will have more answers. For the rgular Entreat builds, I imagine this is a much sounder strategy.

The main reason I'm not playing REB main is because my local meta is hugely volatile. I play against Jund and Abzan way more than normal, and Veteran Explorer is horribly overplayed around here. There's usually Dredge which doesn't care, and almost always a Storm player where they're not exactly stellar. If I had Pyroblasts, I may cut a single Pierce for them in a larger meta, ie. at Lille, or the flex Dack Fayden slot could just be the Pyroblast.

I'm not crazy about main deck REB unless you're also going to play basic Mountain. If my local meta gets even more inbred with UW/x Stoneblade decks, then sure. But I have enough Wastelands and Stifles in my meta that fetching Volcanic for REB can be a liability.

I agree on not running REB main because fetching Volcs G1 always feels bad man for 2 reasons: 1) exposes yourself to Wasteland and 2) lets your opponent know you're playing 3c Miracles (UW is still a very viable variant).

That's why I have a Counterspell in the main to kill a DTT if need be. Or often I'll have been sitting on a FoW for a while.

So you'd rather bluff being on 2-colours than play a good card?

Fuck it, stop fetching for Plains! They might know.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

I agree on not running REB main because fetching Volcs G1 always feels bad man for 2 reasons: 1) exposes yourself to Wasteland and 2) lets your opponent know you're playing 3c Miracles (UW is still a very viable variant).

That's why I have a Counterspell in the main to kill a DTT if need be. Or often I'll have been sitting on a FoW for a while.

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1) It's called calculated risk. Why would you Fetch for Volc before you actually need to cast Red Blast? Is it a crime to hold fetchland un-cracked until you need it? You need to watch Lossett's stream, he MD Blast for at least... 1 year maybe 2. I don't think he would be convinced by your Wasteland argument.

2) That's called self-denial. Completely false.

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Originally Posted by Bragi

So you have decided to cut the consistency of Philips list while not adding the raw power that Joes one has to offer? That sounds like the worst of both worlds to me. Well done.

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what do you mean by "raw power". What carda does he use more than me? Venser?

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Originally Posted by Poron

what do you mean by "raw power". What carda does he use more than me? Venser?

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More Cliques, more Karakas, more Venser, more Mentor.

It's just, you either play Philips or Joes list, if you're doing neither you better have a goddamn reason for that. Your list does not have such a reason. It's just worse than either side of the spectrum.

Took the deck to Legacy FNM, beat Re-animator and UR Delver handily, but lost twice to Omni-tell (one straight blue, one splashing red). I'll admit this is a matchup I don't understand too well, but I feel like it's really bad for us? My instinct is to board in all my REBs and enchantment hate cards I have, and go on the Snapcaster/Clique/Venser beatdown plan. Without pressuring the opponent they have all the time they need to draw into Boseiju and make my life hell.

Does anyone have a lot of experience with this match?

I'm sorry, but nobody actually runs UW Miracles. Or at the very least the numbers are so small that anybody playing against you will always assume you have red, even if you don't show the Volcanic in game 1, so there is virtually no advantage to bluffing you don't have red in your deck. Also, if you don't like running REB main because fetching volcanic island game 1 feels bad, then you're doing some seriously poor evaluations of when to run or not run a card. I sincerely hope that you have a stronger argument against the card than that.

I know REB is kind of a generic term, but in mainboard would Pyroblast be better than actual REB? Only because it can be cast on anything and then fed to a DTT if you aren't playing against a blue deck.

Pyroblast feeds Dig Through Time and Mentors, and can also be used to kill a Phantasmal Image that may be copying your Mentor or Angel. (If you're looking for something even less likely.)

REB is harder to Misdirect if you're using it to kill a Delver or something. Pyroblast is generally better now.

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Originally Posted by Bragi

More Cliques, more Karakas, more Venser, more Mentor.

It's just, you either play Philips or Joes list, if you're doing neither you better have a goddamn reason for that. Your list does not have such a reason. It's just worse than either side of the spectrum.

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To that point, Reid Duke has his own list, so does GP Kyoto Winner's Ponder-Legend list. But yes, Poron's particular list does look worse than the either side. If people are looking for somewhere in between the spectrum, I would strongly recommend the GP Kyoto Winner one (but don't run Wasteland).

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Originally Posted by PhyrexianLibrarian

Took the deck to Legacy FNM, beat Re-animator and UR Delver handily, but lost twice to Omni-tell (one straight blue, one splashing red). I'll admit this is a matchup I don't understand too well, but I feel like it's really bad for us? My instinct is to board in all my REBs and enchantment hate cards I have, and go on the Snapcaster/Clique/Venser beatdown plan. Without pressuring the opponent they have all the time they need to draw into Boseiju and make my life hell.

Does anyone have a lot of experience with this match?

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GP Kyoto is infested with Omni-tell. Julian has the video footage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwDi...WsMhp3npsMay3S

Basically, if you play Ponder Miracles, sorry, you're in trouble. Yes, if you don't pressure early, their massive cantrips will allow them to sculpt a perfect hand to run you over. The must counter cards in the MU are Wish and Dig. Enchantment hate is somewhat pointless because it's very likely for them to go for the Wish kill on stack, unless you have something like Wipe Away.

*The more you know logo but instead it just says "Monastery Mentor"*

EDIT: Also, if you just have mono-Countermagic, a Disenchant is not completely terrible. You get to hit Dream Halls, and if you just put their hand on a low card count, you can just leave them with an Omni stranded and only one good window to actually put it on the table. Then you Disenchant it and laugh. Ihave done this with Red Blasts, but if you simply don't have enough good cards then Disenchant works. It also hits cards like Defense Grid.

I actually one time Disenchanted an Omniscience. That felt pretty good. I boarded in on the off chance of something like Defense Grid like what YamiJoey mentioned.

Opponent tapped out to hardcast it and was empty handed. I was durdling looking for a kill and had locked them out of the game otherwise.

Counterbalance is an incredible weapon against Omni-Tell. Stopping all cantrips is crippling for them.

Even if you miss their Show and Tell, you can just lock out everything else, and they have to naturally draw a Wish or a Dig. Disenchant is not ideal, but we have plenty of actively bad cards like Swords. With trip Meddling Mage, I doubt I want any, but before that I can see myself liking it more.