First of all, it isn`t a shit deck and second, WotC isn`t going to "test" potential broken cards by unbanning them, let them wreck havoc and ban them again just because they never had their shot in LegacyQuote:
Originally Posted by H
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First of all, it isn`t a shit deck and second, WotC isn`t going to "test" potential broken cards by unbanning them, let them wreck havoc and ban them again just because they never had their shot in LegacyQuote:
Originally Posted by H
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
They need to unban the following cards.
1) Earthcraft
2) MindTwist - maybe
3) Survival of the Fittest
4) Memory Jar
The Legacy banned list has been comical over the last few years. Black vise, Land Tax and Worldgorger Dragon have had no effect on Legacy.
They need to unban cards that the have the potential to create new archetypes and they need to unban cards that will make a top 8.
Earthcraft and Mind Twist are being debated currently. My own opinions are biased towards Twist, but I doubt it will ever happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwisdom
Survival... uhh... I have no opinions on. Someone else can debate that.
But suggesting to unban Jar is insane.
As an Enchantress player I'm not sure if Earthcraft would make enchantress merely good or tier 1.5 whatever. It might attract more players to the deck which would be key to it being more top 8's. I'm not sure how good it would be in elves which is commonly the deck people say it would go in. I'm not an elves expert, but it is a nice piece to keep a glimpse chain going. Otherwise it's a do nothing 2 drop whereas at least with Birchlore it's a dude.
im all for unbanning survival, but i have no desire to see a 5 mana draw 7 like memory jar back in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVicious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZUoCpx8jagQuote:
Originally Posted by dragonwisdom
Reforge the Soul is legal and nobody plays it.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
And that would be b/c you would need Leyline of Anticipation in play. Little is gained by firing off your Rits in response to miracle trigger, drawing 7 new cards, then emptying your mana pool as you move to 1st main. The card isn't played b/c you're locked out of sorcery speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Sure lets un-ban Minds Desire while we are at it....Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwisdom
Seriously Jar is not safe and will likely never be. Jar + welder is nuts, and you can still tutor it into play with transmute artifact.
Nah, MD ius clearly nucking futs.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
But IMO, Jar is overpowewred, but I don't think it's Overpowered for Legacy, as it stands. There's anough potent aggro, and I don't think there's a combo deck that would run 4, because of its cost. It would definitely be a signal to the playerbase, though.
But the far more likely unbans are Twist and Earthcraft, with a possible ban for Miracles.
Too bad that "fuck off and read the last 20 Pages of this thread where we discussed [cardname] in depth rather than bringing up the topic again" isn't an adequate response, so I won't touch certain cards for discussion again for every troll or idiot who drops by.
Jar however we didn't have for a while and I think that looking at Combo decks is totally off because of the sheer number of blue decks in the format which draw into countermagic if you break the Jar and stop you anyways. All the draw7 effects work only if you can dump your hand and get a fresh grip if you don't really care what your opponent drew. Combo decks do care and that's the reason these Type of effect doesn't see much Legacy play.
Jar is a card for Elves, MUD, 12-Post and potentially Belcher to burry opponents with the cardadvantage. Comparing Jar to Reforge the Soul and friends isn't fitting. First because you break jar with ALL your mana available, second because of all the shenanigans with Welder and stuff
Just unban Survival i want to play TnT in this format once again.
Just look at this beauty! :cool:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 Taiga
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Lotus Petal
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Imp
1 Su-Chi
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormenting Voice
Why not play a good Survival deck? I mean, the next to happens is that one takes this list, tests it against Belcher, loses and then claims Survival is safe because he lost with it xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
(Snip removed)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Dice
I have literally never seen someone use exclusively strawmans the way you do.
Personal attacks will be meet with infractions. Only warning.
Dunno, why not make good arguments ? xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I never said that was actually the best survival list, i just said i wanted to play TnT in this format again, but maybe i expressed myself too badly, i apologize if so :rolleyes:
I am not sure that memory jar is really all that broken. There are many combos with welder. He usually dies to removal or gets countered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
In any case they need to unban cards that will actually have an effect. I don't think that jar would dominate. At least no more than delver or brainstorm.
Oh, this [word that rhymes with "cupid"] thread. Some comments deserve ostracism. I will settle for a quick note.
----{sigh}----
While Legacy is a much more powerful format than any format 4x Memory Jar has ever been legal in, and I suspect the format can handle it, this is not an argument. I am pretty sure that Eldrazi would adopt this card and grow quite a but in strength as it warps into a deck that can empty its hand as fast as possible. Not sure how I feel about that. Eldrazi is an excellent format-balancing deck atm, and Jar would tip the scales.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwisdom
Memory jar is not that broken when we have 2cc griselbrand through entomb. 5cc just draw is not good enough for this format, will see some light play but not more.
Mindtwist I see this card could see some play with grim monolith tomb and so on but it might not be that broken.
Don't forget there is urborg, tomb so turn one grim monolith voltaic key turn 2 mindtwist your hand could be good.
that could be good but not that broken compare to others stuff we have and could make bigEldrazi a good deck. Withouth monolith that's at best a turn two hymn to tourach.
Safe to unban.
Earthcraft I don't see this card being good enough for a combo deck. It is safe.
Survival : no we can't unban that stuff it is op. That's a 2CC I win card compare to shit like memory jar or earthcraft the card is way more powerfull. Survival can give you griselbrand through 2w cards can give you an army of recursive vengevines that laugh at terminus,
answers to survival hate, answers to combo via iona. There is no valid point at making it unban. I LOLED at people saying survival is safe and memory jar isn't survival gives you grisou on the table turn 3.
I personally would like to see mindesire unbanned the card is not that good, 6cc card I might win if I casted some spells is not that op.
Don't forget that what matters the most is the casting cost survival does way too much for 2 mana.
I am personally favorable at the ban of either top or Counterbalance, miracle is way too powerfull for the format ; counterbalance is format warping since the begenning of its printing and invalidates lot of strategies.
Abrupt decay print made it ok, but lot of decks are being destroyed by this card and I think more than terminus. The fact that you can't overextend is fair (we have lot of sweepers) but the fact that if you don't overextend you get punished by CB to not cast your spells is not.
I would prefer see CB being banned because top allowed not to play blue with better consistency and It would keep miracle being a good deck.
Rufus, these are entirely different effects. With Memory Jar, there are a variety of good ways to avoid paying the casting cost, and all colorless mana makes it much more accessible if you do plan to hard cast it. Also your opponent mostly does not get to use the cards he gets. They get discarded at eot. I have faced and used the card quite a few times. It is a much bigger card advantage shift than Wheel of Fortune and friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Really, I just wanted to say that. I would be ambivalent about an unban, mostly because of all the powerful colorless Eldrazi cards that have seen print of late, not to mention the new land to fetch it.
For what it's worth, my 2cs about jar. I've played my fair share against it and with it. Jar isn't a wheel, jar is a straight asymmetric i draw 7 effect. Your opponent rarely if ever use the effect, maybe 1 force if they drew it in the new 7, but that's it. While it may not straight break the format, especially since most problematic decks in legacy couldn't use it, a colorless 5 mana draw 7 spells is still the closest things to the nuts. I'd be comfortable in unbanning survival before jar as i'm convinced the card would be played but nowhere as oppressive as it was years ago, and more importantly, survival is one of those cards that becomes progressively worse as better non-recurring creatures get printed that make recurring tricks with survival just slow (reanimating anything with retainers is 6 mana, and while grizzly got printed, reanimating iona was close up there if not possibly better in an aggro deck as it actually killed opposing combo lists with no attack phase involveds). A straight UG Vengevival list from back then with DRS in place of hierarch get blown up by most decks in the formats (oh another vengevine? What about snapcaster stp zzz, also AD and DRS got printed , are very good against it, and in a lot of decks), and even the dream draw of T2 survival into T3 triple vengevines with FoW protection is arguably worse than chalice into TKS into T3 Reality smasher.
Twist and earthcraft are in the "do close to nothing" category. Survival is "powerful new archetype in the format, but not dominating". Frantic Search and Jar have a risk to be actually broken imho, like Bargain. Just start from the least problematic cards. Well, i say that, but WotC actually unbanned what i would have called a potentially broken card, time spiral, before tax AND vise which were trash tier.
What I'm starting to wonder is if this thread is conducive to anything positive. It seems that on every other page, someone is either attacking someone's opinions, credibility or someone personally. The basis for this thread is entirely opinionated and speculative - much more so than other threads - so it baffles me how constantly having to remind people in here of common courtesy etiquette and policing the most generic of polite behavior doesn't result in a positive endgame in any scenario. It's just an on-going circle-jerk of the same conversations over and over, with everyone trying to play the role of expert. Contributing something positive here is like trying to blast through the wall of slime covering the museum: it just doesn't seem to matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Seriously, there are way too many swinging dicks in here. It's a melting pot of opinions that only seems to draw ire and attacks that pulls a dark cloud over positive, fluid conversation. It gets really tiresome seeing teacher's red pen over an adult conversation, and I feel bad for Dice and every other mod who needs to correct people from acting like children.
Well if you can't see it, why are we worried? One person's opinion with no evidence is clearly a good system to base decisions on.Quote:
Earthcraft I don't see this card being good enough for a combo deck. It is safe.
Mind's desire is an INSANE card. It's pretty simple to get to six mana, and if you cast it for 5+ storm, you're 90%+ to win the game (pretty much). Getting to play four copies is just ridiculous, mind's desire for 5, hit 2 spells 2 land 1 desire, desire for 8 etc til you hit tendrils. Don't be silly.Quote:
I personally would like to see mindesire unbanned the card is not that good, 6cc card I might win if I casted some spells is not that op.
Maybe it just seems that way because you're a stupid jerk. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/...c706314bb7.png
Seriously though, this thread does the rest of a forum a service because it keeps all of the awful things you've described confined into one thread that most people ignore 8 months of the year.
Isn't it easier for Dice_Box to just monitor this thread and occasionally paint it red than to have to police the entire forum?
Necessary evil.
Blasting won't do anything... You need to use the Statue of Liberty to smash through the top. It helps if you can get New York City to sing Auld Lang Syne in unison. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
It is a 2cc card which does close to nothing on his own. If you are gone play the 3cc combo squirrel stuff good luck with your pile !Quote:
Well if you can't see it, why are we worried? One person's opinion with no evidence is clearly a good system to base decisions on.
We already have lot of better decks and this deck would be unconsistent as hell.
Rest in peace+ helm is better in enchantress cause rest in peace is good on his own.
Mind's desire is not what you think. getting 6 mana whith five copies is likely going to lose here unless you are playing with 4 tendrills maind+4 empty the warrenQuote:
Mind's desire is an INSANE card. It's pretty simple to get to six mana, and if you cast it for 5+ storm, you're 90%+ to win the game (pretty much). Getting to play four copies is just ridiculous, mind's desire for 5, hit 2 spells 2 land 1 desire, desire for 8 etc til you hit tendrils. Don't be silly.
From probability you have 77% of chance of NOT hitting an other copy of mind's desire if you play 4 with a storm @5. So to have something decent you need 80% of winning right ? at least that would need a storm @ more than 20 before casting the first mind's desire meaning tendril would be letal.
Mind's desire was played when there was lot of wining spells. From probabilities to win with a storm @5 and to have a 80 % chance of winning you would need 17 winning cards in your deck making it very inconsistant with 17 cards with casting cost 6 or more.
Mind's desire is true garbbage clearly. It was played when there was bargain+wheel of fortune+time twiser and other 3cc bombs in this format it does clearly nothing true story proved by stats.
More precisely if say storm is at 4 for Mind's Desire, you put a storm trigger on the stack. Then you put all the copies on the stack in any order you like, not that it actually matters. Then you cast those spells, all before whatever storm card you may have hit. For no mana a storm 4 Mind's Desire potentially ramps storm from 4+1 (itself)+up to 4 to potentially 9 storm -> into last storm spell. That is lethal.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
I don't think your arithmetic accounts for "casting without paying mana cost," increasing storm, and being exiled (and not in hand, see also LED).
This is prime sig material, would take it if mine weren't gems already.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Yeah fox I know how mind's desire works. The question is : would storm be playable with MAINDECK 4 empty+4 tendril+4 mind's desire +4 others 4-6cc+ bombs cards. You need at least 18 WINNING TARGETS to have a 80% chance of hitting one with storm @5
Cause that's what you need to make mind's desire playable. I think no. The deck would be easily disrupted by tempo and an unconsistent pile.
You need at the very least 16-18 4-6 cc bombs spells to make it consistent which make it unplayable in legacy.
Or a combo deck could play spells that make mana and draw cards, maybe even put a Tendrils of Agony on top of your deck? They exist right? Pretty good to hit off Mind's Desire, so you can make more mana and draw more cards to cast another Mind's Desire from the cards you've drawn to make more cards and and draw more mana then KABOOM. Dead. Mana. Cards.
First part of resolving Mind's Desire or one of its storm copies: Shuffle your library, outside of priority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I've dicked around with vintage storm with restricted desire before. I can't imagine how nutty 4 in a deck would be
Ah, fair! Forgot about that part of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Still, the card is bonkers and has no place in Legacy.
thats not how you build a legacy storm deck with Desire. You totally miss that flipped cantrips and Tutors let you continue the combo. Please stop posting about Desire if you don`t have a clue how the card works in that context.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
every dark Ritual under MD is +3 mana, every Cabal Ritual is +5, every Infernal tutor is +5 mana, every Dark Petition is +7 mana, cantrips are free to grab the piece to get you going, every flipped Tutor can get you a new MD or a LED for blue mana to cantrip into the MD and flip half your library. There is zero need to pile up crappy killconditions
Agree on counterbalance.
Survival is interesting, I've been playing reanimator and it's basically the free-winniest deck I've ever played until I run up against any Deathrite Shaman/Grafdigger's Cage deck. Survival would have a better backup plan than Reanimator while being even slower to beat a Deathrite with any combo win. I could go either way.
I don't think Monolith/Key needs Mind Twist to be viable/good. Twist is probably fine even if someone wants to try that.
Jar and artifact lands and welder could do something stupid with Entomb available as well, but I think that would be more interesting than OP.
Yeah so please post your list. I don't see how IT is going to give you 5 mana.Quote:
thats not how you build a legacy storm deck with Desire. You totally miss that flipped cantrips and Tutors let you continue the combo. Please stop posting about Desire if you don`t have a clue how the card works in that context.
every dark Ritual under MD is +3 mana, every Cabal Ritual is +5, every Infernal tutor is +5 mana, every Dark Petition is +7 mana, cantrips are free to grab the piece to get you going, every flipped Tutor can get you a new MD or a LED for blue mana to cantrip into the MD and flip half your library. There is zero need to pile up crappy killconditions
Something like that wouldn't work to me :
4 DR
4 CR
4 GP
4 CabalT
2 tendrill
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Led
4 Petal
1 DarkPetition
2 top
4 Desire
4 IT
15 lands
From testing with mind desire it fizzle a lot and that's not better than averaged storm. You are not vulnerable to graveyard hate but it fizzles more than 1/3 times that's a gamble.
EDIT : More tests show that it might be better than classic storm but it is not faster you need your double blue mana and can fizzle, the ability to not fail against counters might be too good but i still loses to hatebears/Cotv/CB/discards and stuff. Not sure it is broken though.
Anyway to me the problem in the format is CB which as good as survival in powerlevel 2 mana enchantment I win. Format warping.
The 5 mana off IT was a brainfart as it should be 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Other than that, what means fizzle and what number of storm are we talking? I mean if you expect to cast Desire with ~4 storm you can kick your SDTs and run some Sins of the Past to supplement Desire. The deck also needs a PIF for the regular ANT playline
i would even consider running a high tide version of mind's desire. anyway, there's lots of ways to take mind's desire instead of just modifying an already existing deck. it's banned for a good reason. playing many spells for free is an issue.
let's maybe try to move the conversation back to something worth talking about...like anything that could possibly happen.
My thought as well. It's somewhat difficult getting 2 blue in an ANT shell without LED at times early in the game. I think my list maybe just cuts the red entirely and goes UB Storm. PIF is sweet to beat counters and discard, but simply making 6 mana and casting desire beats counters often as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
One interesting thing with Jar is the amount of graveyard synergies in the format may make playing it less effective. I'm sure Reanimator, Dredge, Tin Fins, Lands, etc. would love a free mill 7. Practically every other deck runs Goyf, DRS, or Angler, which all benefit from larger graveyards. Plus you totally screw with Miracles. Draw 7/discard 7 resets their top, and for a deck with few win conditions, flipping a couple of them off of jar hampers their ability to actually win the game.
Card is still stupid busted, but food for thought.
You never tested Scourge Extended, did you?Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
That deck could consistently kill on turn 3. Through hate. And there were no other pieces required, as everything was already there.
Desire is decidedly unsafe. Tolarian Academy would be a safer unban, comparatively, and that card is busted as all hell.