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I'd wait to see how the rest of the meta shakes out. We basically go back to 2012 era Rock. I'd run Hierarchs and Birds to see if they're good enough in the meta, and if not, I'm running more discard or we have to go back to Mox Diamond Junk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
-Matt
Yay! Mox Diamond Junk!Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I would still be really surprised to see a DRS ban.
I wish they could just errata him to only make G and B mana.... stupid blue mages ruining everything
I could see chrome mix in that spot too, but not a set, and not as good as diamonds with 24 lands.
Birds? Uggh. It's ok as acceleration I guess, but not a threat like drs. I think Knight of the Reliquary would probably be bettwr.
Sure, it's not a threat, but you want to have mana consistency. I agree it's likely not the best option, The format slows a little. I remember playing my 2012 SCG run and being on 3 DRS (yes, I know...) and not really seeing any other Shamans around. Card was good, but not integral. I was still playing Knight then, format was much slower, but Miracles still existed (although it wasn't a menace as not as many peeps were running it).
I'd be inclined to still run Noble Hierarch, and expect to play against more SnT, Canadian Thresh, Reanimator/Combo like before. Knight likely replaces Souls...as seen here. Asssuming DRS ban and meta shifts to exclude Grixis and 4C bullshit...
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
15
2 Mox Diamond
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 STP
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
22
//
Again, just spitballing.
Another option is to go pseudo-Maverick with GSZ + Dryad Arbor for mana acceleration, like 3 GSZ/1 Arbor/1Birds of Paradise. That's 5 slots instead of 4 that Deathrite used to do, but it would also allow for some cool silver bullets in the main/side (Teeg, Scooze) along with functionally playing with 7 Tarmogoyfs.
I ran 3 GSZ back then and really liked having infinite Goyfs. You're basically white Team America, dropping Goyfs and Knights instead of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Deathrite Shaman is banned... 😭😭😭
What do we do from here, boys??
I think there are quite a few good options. The most obivous would be going back to Hiearch and/or Mox Diamond rock. I think that between push and the other 1 mana discard spells, it also makes sense to just completely skip over the acceleration and just play those instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
First top, now DRS. They really don't want people playing rock huh? :tongue:
So I spent the whole day pondering about it at work so here are some options. First off, it'll be 4 slots opening up. I dont think a DRS ban changes our core of SFM, Goyf, Bob, Souls, etc so it should be pretty simple
Option1:
Slot 1) Has to be a 23rd land. With no mana dork, it has to be more lands.
Slots 2-4) Mother of Ruins. If the meta settles down to a more fair environment, I can see the 23rd land being a 3rd Scrubland. Going T1 Mom, t2 sfm/bob and being able to protect them is HUGE. Unbelievably huge. Im leaning towards this option to be honest.
Option 2:
Slots 1-3) Mana dork. Birds or Noble Hierarch.
I dont like this much. Our deck doesnt utilize the ramp much (t2 souls isnt intimidating at all). It would be nice to go 2 drop + wasteland but I dont think the payoff is worth it as that rarely won games on its own with DRS.
Slot 4) Any flex slot. 4th Souls. 1 Push. 4th Decay. 4th Hymn. Maelstrom Pulse Main. It could be anything.
Option 3: Up the overall curve.
This would force Slot 1) to be another land.
However, slots 2-4 can be any number of the cards i listed in the above option. Hell, it could even be Grim Flayer, something that could be really good now that main deck graveyard hate is banned.
Grim Flayer is amazing in modern. Going t1 discard t2 flayer and being able to dig for more hate is insane. It could even be +1 land +3 Flayer. Can you imagine flayer carrying a sword? Yes, stack your deck and draw a card.
It could also just be a combination of more removal as well. Diabolic edict. 3rd liliana of the veil.
I expect the meta to be super unfair initially, as it usually is the case after a meta shakeup. Then, once it settles, fair decks can thrive, and thats when we come in. Along that timeline, Ill probably try Flayers first and then switch to Mom once midrange has found a set list. This of course all depends on what the meta looks like, but this is just brainstorming of course.
What does everyone else think?
I'm definitely going to play moms myself. I feel like GSZ could also be very good. I also agree that land 23 becomes a ton more important. I think I'll make it a treetops village now that I don't have Drs to prioritize. So for me, if I play this again:Quote:
Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
-4 Drs
+4 mother of runes
-1 something
+1 treetops village
The discard gets a little more difficult, because shaman allowed for hymns a lot easier. I will probably try more targeted discard and cut from 3 to 2 hymns.
Edit: because I expect combo to surge I am looking closer at tidehollow Sculler as well. Mom>Sculler is gas, even against fair decks.
Also, with hymn being less reliable to cast off drs I think its finally time to commit to collective brutality in some number alongside at least 3x lingering souls.
Didn't mean to jinx it guys my bad!
This has been what I want to do all day thinking bout it. I want Junk with Souls, Brutality, Goyfs, Bobs. I think with a pile of 2 and 3 drops though you want acceleration of some sort, and when you're playing mono 2 drops, Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond seem like the best options rather than another mana dork. Otherwise you maybe go to like 2-3 Green Sun (with Dryad Arbor), and like 2 Noble Hierarch? Winning Goyf wars seems sweet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
How would the manabase look like with Chrome Mox in the list? And how many Chrome Mox would you run? It seems like it would go against our game plan of outvaluing our opponent if we start trying to accelerate via the Mox.
With DRS being banned, this deck is in a really uncomfortable spot. The strength of green comes in being able to accelerate up the curve, and DRS was great for that. Without it, and considering how important the black cards will be to the deck -- you kind of have to go to Birds or Mox Diamond, and both of them are liabilities in the late game. This deck is designed to play mid-to-long games, so having dead draws late is really going to be rough considering plenty of other decks had toys printed in the past 6 years as well. The ramp-into-threats plan is better suited to a GW-base deck, and that's Maverick.
Alternatively, you could lower the curve. The Modern version is basically a zillion 1cmc interaction spells and 2cmc threats. That's possible here, but I don't know if it's Legacy strong. Wasteland and Stoneforge Mystic not being legal in modern change the dynamic quite a bit. For example, you can max discard and 2 drops and get better mana vs. Wasteland decks with Deadguy Ale.
Or, you could do that in GB and not play STP/Stoneforge, and tilt toward aggression, especially with Fatal Push being printed:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Flayer
Some more creatures
4 Thoughtseize
4 IoK
4 Fatal Push
Some Lilianas
Etc...
Two-color decks also work a lot better with Chrome Mox, which may be preferred to Mox Diamond in decks that aren't very specifically trying to max out lands because you can actually cut lands to play it and you won't be topdecking as much fast mana late. The redundancy of effects makes it less awkward to pin stuff under it.
The upshot is I don't see a huge incentive to play these three colors all together anymore in this kind of deck... I'd much rather play Nic Fit and really get to leverage the up-curve strength of green ramp. Or, play Maverick, DGA, or BG aggro.
I don't know, I know this sounds negative but after everything that happened yesterday I feel like my antipathy toward DRS being banned was with this deck, which I loved playing, in mind. I just always wished that the dumb blue drops that incentivized BUG so heavily over any other BGx deck never existed. Now Deathrite is gone and... here we are I suppose.
I wouldn't play more than 2x chrome mox. I would also look to the Deadguy thread, as there are a few players that have been successful using chrome mox over the past year.
Here is my starting point (but honestly, I think mix fit is a better deck atm, it still has explorer.)
3x mother of runes
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
2x stoneforge mystic
3x tidehollow Sculler
4x thoughtseize
4x swords to plowshares
2x abrupt decay
1x vindicate
2x collective brutality
2x liliana of the veil
3x Lingering souls
1x jitte
2x sylvan library
23 lands, including treetops village
I think we have to move in a direction to stabilize our manabases, first and foremost. Sinkhole/Stifle are back, and the Vial decks will be back. I am considering still running dorks, or changing the configuration a bit. Souls is better positioned, but we also need to upgrade GY and Combo hate to some degree.
It may be correct to play 24 lands + kotr again, if we see mana denial in large percentages.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
This was what I was looking at back in February.
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Renegade Rallier
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hidden Stockpile
3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
You could easily drop the Shaman from this list in favor or a 1cc mana dork. I prefer Birds of Paradise because it flies and you can stick things on it to actually do damage.
I had dropped KotR in favor of the recursion package from Rallier and Excavator. Because of that I got to tinker with the manabase a little. Later builds managed to sneak in a Liliana, The Last Hope which worked out very well in testing.
I was also testing Smokestack from the board.
I'm actually expecting everyone to try and sub in a 1cc dork and then flow to graveyard based decks. They've all been repressed and Shaman's influence was big there.
Edit- What are people's thoughts about amulet of safekeeping? Link
I think if you're looking to grind, nic fit is probably better, at least in my experience. Rock was always a mid-range deck that could play tempo style if needed or grindy if needed, but just good stuff galore and having more powerful cards than opponents. More games go the tempo route though, especially without drs now. I'm still thinking mom is the way to go if we want to persist at rock. Nic fit is my jam for now.
Natural order seems like a way for rock to vary itself from the other decks.
Lands (23)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
Creatures (12)
2 Mother of Runes
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (11)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
1 Toxic Deluge
Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sideboard (15)
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
Heres the list that Ill probably be testing. The main addition is 2 Mother of Runes. Well see how she performs. Other than that, a 4th Thoughtseize and a Treetop as an extra threat. Cutting a Hymn in the board for a 4th Surgical since Im expecting a ton of reanimator. Overall the sideboard is probably a crapshoot without a meta so lets see