[Deck] Death and Taxes

I have 1 slot available in my maindeck, as further testing has shown me that Leonin Relic-Warder is less good than other options.

My list is:

4 Mother
4 Thalia
2 Revoker
3 Stoneforge
2 Crusader
1 Mangara
1 Prelate
3 Recruiter
4 Flickerwisp
1 ???

1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 SoWP
4 StP
4 Vial
2 Mox Diamond

4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
8 Plains

Options I'm considering are:

2nd Sanctum Prelate (also have 1 in sb)
1st Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1st Ethersworn Canonist

Prelate, Mom and SoWP are how I beat Miracles, and it's pretty amazing. The only thing I have a problem with is ETA, but it's still an okay option.

I'm also thinking of a Crackdown for against Eldrazi and UG Turbo Eldrazi, Tarmogoyf and TNN lists in the sideboard, but I'm pretty sure I would need at least 2x Enlightened Tutor for that plan to be worthwhile, which is doable, however I'm unsure if I want to or not.

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I recommend using thay last slot on either a Serra Avenger or a 3rd Phyrexian Revoker. I would lean more towards Revoker because it smooths out mulligans.

Yeah? I was actually just looking at the idea of Revoker (I won't play Serra Avenger yet). I am predisposed to playing another Prelate main, but I've done that, and it had definite downsides, so I have to try something else. I was going to try Canonist as a quasi 5th Thalia but that's not very good against Shardless (3-4 in my meta; and more bug as well, also Grixis Delver) which is fairly popular in my meta, as is the mirror (not fantastic here, 2 other DnT players), and two Miracles pilots, and based on the small meta, the above list is a relevant percentage of the meta. Like 65%, sometimes more.

Tldr: I'll try Revoker.

Anyone have anything good to say about Thalia 2.0 yet?

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THC can be amazing when dropped early, but in D&T she's underwhelming the majority of the time. Decks like Maverick or the Thalia/Soldier Stompy decks that can get her out T2 or sometimes even T1 work better for her.

Lots of us kept trying to make her work (including me), but as you will see reading back a few months' worth of pages we all pretty much gave up. The deck lately has been shifting more towards beaters (including Serra Avenger again, upping the amount of Mirran Crusader) to fight the meta shift and relying less on the newer hate bears, such as THC and Sanctum Prelate.

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Originally Posted by RobNC

THC can be amazing when dropped early, but in D&T she's underwhelming the majority of the time. Decks like Maverick or the Thalia/Soldier Stompy decks that can get her out T2 or sometimes even T1 work better for her.

Lots of us kept trying to make her work (including me), but as you will see reading back a few months' worth of pages we all pretty much gave up. The deck lately has been shifting more towards beaters (including Serra Avenger again, upping the amount of Mirran Crusader) to fight the meta shift and relying less on the newer hate bears, such as THC and Sanctum Prelate.

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I'm really interested in the amount of Serra avenger and mirran crusaders you play in your meta.

I play in Europe and think about taking dnt to the eternal weekend.

At the moment I play 1 avenger and 3 crusaders but I'm thinking about finding a bit of room for an extra avenger (even considering playing 61 cards) for more often than not these days she saved my day when top decked! (And she's not tutorable by recruiter).

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I have 1 slot available in my maindeck, as further testing has shown me that Leonin Relic-Warder is less good than other options.

My list is:

4 Mother
4 Thalia
2 Revoker
3 Stoneforge
2 Crusader
1 Mangara
1 Prelate
3 Recruiter
4 Flickerwisp
1 ???

1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 SoWP
4 StP
4 Vial
2 Mox Diamond

4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
8 Plains

Options I'm considering are:

2nd Sanctum Prelate (also have 1 in sb)
1st Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1st Ethersworn Canonist

Prelate, Mom and SoWP are how I beat Miracles, and it's pretty amazing. The only thing I have a problem with is ETA, but it's still an okay option.

I'm also thinking of a Crackdown for against Eldrazi and UG Turbo Eldrazi, Tarmogoyf and TNN lists in the sideboard, but I'm pretty sure I would need at least 2x Enlightened Tutor for that plan to be worthwhile, which is doable, however I'm unsure if I want to or not.

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I know you run the mox diamonds, but I still worry about your curve. I don't like more than 9 3 drops if I can help it.

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Originally Posted by infiniteJ

I know you run the mox diamonds, but I still worry about your curve. I don't like more than 9 3 drops if I can help it.

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It's definitely a concern, but I cannot figure anything else out. I hate the idea of not being able to tutor for my beater, which is why I dislike Serra Avenger. I was running 1 less Flickerwisp, but I often never saw it, which is bad because it's fantastic against Miracles as well as the mirror, delver, Aluren, and lots of other things that I don't really have any other answers for. I went down to 2x Recruiter last monthly legacy event and it was the worst, I will not be doing that again soon. I did add the 3rd Revoker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

It's definitely a concern, but I cannot figure anything else out. I hate the idea of not being able to tutor for my beater, which is why I dislike Serra Avenger. I was running 1 less Flickerwisp, but I often never saw it, which is bad because it's fantastic against Miracles as well as the mirror, delver, Aluren, and lots of other things that I don't really have any other answers for. I went down to 2x Recruiter last monthly legacy event and it was the worst, I will not be doing that again soon. I did add the 3rd Revoker.

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If you're tutoring for beaters, aren't you always getting flickerwisp for the rebuy?

Not always. BUG matchups in particular are an area where Flickerwisp is a less likely target than Mirran Crusader or Revoker (DRS).

Edit: I also tutor for mom often, as well as Prelate in a lot of situations.

I just started playing Legacy at a new store, and the meta is BUG heavy, and overall quite very favorable for D and T. Unfortunately, people are packing lots of Dread of Night in sideboards to deal with us. I finally ordered Gideons (2 for SB) since I found a place to play paper Legacy in Utah (YAY!) Against decks that you know are bringing in at least one copy of Dread of Night, when none have landed yet, do you ever preemptively crack Gideon for his emblem, or is that a waste of a potential value engine? Can anyone please enlighten me as to some pitfalls to avoid with the use of this card? Thanks, all!

Main:
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mirran Crusader
1x Serra Avenger
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Sanctum Prelate
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

SB:
2x Path to Exile
2x Council's Judgment
2x Rest in Peace
2x Containment Priest
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Ethersworn Canonist

Depends on your board state. If you have a bunch of Moms, Wisps and a Thalia in play make an emblem. Otherwise just make 2/2 Knights if your creatures are already resilient to Dread of Night or if you have zero board presence.

A big play I did enjoy making was Gideon emblem followed up by a Pia and Kiran Nalaar.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Not always. BUG matchups in particular are an area where Flickerwisp is a less likely target than Mirran Crusader or Revoker (DRS).

Edit: I also tutor for mom often, as well as Prelate in a lot of situations.

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I often side out prelate in BUG matches because their CMCs seem so varied. That's probably wrong though. What do you name for Prelate in BUG matches? These are my choices, but I'm not sure they are optimal.

TNN BUG: 1 (cantrips, fatal push, hand disruption, dread of night) perhaps should be 2 (decay, library, jitte)
BUG Delver: 2 (decay, daze, hymn) perhaps should be 1 for cantrips, but feels bad to shut off swords/path
Shardless: 2 (decay, library, hymn)
Food Chain: 3 (food chain, deluge)
Aluren: 4 (aluren) perhaps should be 1 (cantrips)

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

It's definitely a concern, but I cannot figure anything else out. I hate the idea of not being able to tutor for my beater, which is why I dislike Serra Avenger. I was running 1 less Flickerwisp, but I often never saw it, which is bad because it's fantastic against Miracles as well as the mirror, delver, Aluren, and lots of other things that I don't really have any other answers for. I went down to 2x Recruiter last monthly legacy event and it was the worst, I will not be doing that again soon. I did add the 3rd Revoker.

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I think it might be fair to consider removing Mangara, since you are already pretty heavy on 3 drops.

I love Mangara myself, but recently came around to removing him, since it's often just too slow, even if you can Recruiter him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Not always. BUG matchups in particular are an area where Flickerwisp is a less likely target than Mirran Crusader or Revoker (DRS).

Edit: I also tutor for mom often, as well as Prelate in a lot of situations.

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Originally Posted by appleseiter15

I often side out prelate in BUG matches because their CMCs seem so varied. That's probably wrong though. What do you name for Prelate in BUG matches? These are my choices, but I'm not sure they are optimal.

TNN BUG: 1 (cantrips, fatal push, hand disruption, dread of night) perhaps should be 2 (decay, library, jitte)
BUG Delver: 2 (decay, daze, hymn) perhaps should be 1 for cantrips, but feels bad to shut off swords/path
Shardless: 2 (decay, library, hymn)
Food Chain: 3 (food chain, deluge)
Aluren: 4 (aluren) perhaps should be 1 (cantrips)

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Yeah, my edit was confusing. My mistake. The two thoughts were separated. Against bug, Prelate has felt bad so far. They have varied forms of removal (push, decay, pulse, deluge, etc.) And fatties that don't care. It's never felt strong or even good in principle or in testing for me.

I find myself tutoring for Mom or Prelate in general.

On a different note,

I don't own Gideon (I know, I know...), can Elspeth, Knight-Errant work for now do you think, or do I need to just get them? Are those of you who run Gideon particularly pleased with him, or is he just good in general against control?

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Elspeth is awesome, especially when you need a flier. I run a 1/1 split with Gideon and I'm always happy to see either one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by appleseiter15

I just started playing Legacy at a new store, and the meta is BUG heavy, and overall quite very favorable for D and T. Unfortunately, people are packing lots of Dread of Night in sideboards to deal with us. I finally ordered Gideons (2 for SB) since I found a place to play paper Legacy in Utah (YAY!) Against decks that you know are bringing in at least one copy of Dread of Night, when none have landed yet, do you ever preemptively crack Gideon for his emblem, or is that a waste of a potential value engine? Can anyone please enlighten me as to some pitfalls to avoid with the use of this card? Thanks, all!

Main:
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mirran Crusader
1x Serra Avenger
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Sanctum Prelate
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

SB:
2x Path to Exile
2x Council's Judgment
2x Rest in Peace
2x Containment Priest
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Ethersworn Canonist

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Another card to consider is veteran armorer. It's janky but it protects all your guys from golgari charm, can be tutored, is proactive, and is a blowout Off vial. I don't use it in my meta but it's been useful in the past.

I tend to board out Prelate vs BUG decks that aren't combo decks (e.g. Aluren).

I've played with Veteran Armorer quite a bit in the Wingmare days. I wanted it to be good, but it rarely did what I wanted, when I wanted. It's a card that has blowout potential off a Vial, but I can count on one hand the times that those blowouts actually happened. I'm much happier with Gideon as a sideboard card; its versitility is amazing.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

I tend to board out Prelate vs BUG decks that aren't combo decks (e.g. Aluren).

I've played with Veteran Armorer quite a bit in the Wingmare days. I wanted it to be good, but it rarely did what I wanted, when I wanted. It's a card that has blowout potential off a Vial, but I can count on one hand the times that those blowouts actually happened. I'm much happier with Gideon as a sideboard card; its versitility is amazing.

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What do you name for Prelate when facing Aluren in what situations?

It's no secret that Legacy is currently overrun with various BUG decks. I have misidentified what deck I am up against more than once and that has cost me games. Basically, I have a hard time ascertaining whether I am facing Shardless BUG, BUG Delver, TNN BUG, BUG Aluren, or BUG Food Chain (all are present in my meta.) Some cards are dead giveaways- Delver (Delver), Noble Hierarch (TNN BUG), Manipulate Fate (Food Chain)- but it seems like all of these decks have very similar early plays involving deathrite shaman, abrupt decay, hand disruption, and cantrips. Shardless and Aluren in particular seem to share a lot of the same cards in Shardless Agent, DRS, and Baleful Strix. Does anyone have tips/tricks to learn to identify these very similar looking decks early on so we can formulate effective game plans?

I've often found myself that 12 Post is annoying. Is it a bad MU in general? An early Show and Tell (Primeval Titan, Good old Emrakul, Counter Kozilek) in Game 1 is GG most of the time, except I can resolve an early Prelate on 3 when I'm OTP. Mana denial plan gets hindered regularly because of MD Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. Thalia is useless. It happened once, that i could flicker the Needle for triple Wasteland action, which brought me the win, but this scenario doesn't show up often. MD Deluge and Decay are also frustrating, if i don't have Prelate or Mom on board. Are there any other good SB cards next to Containment Priest and Cataclysm to improve the MU postboard? In theory these options seem to be enough, if the resolve just in time, but in reality chances are limited. Perhaps I don't mulligan aggressively enough... Council's Judgment is OK against Titan and Kozilek, but against Emrakul it's crap. Relating to him I wanted to try Blessed Alliance, but this seems to be quite narrow. As it is Spirit of the Labyrinth against Kozilek.