[Deck] The Rock

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Natural order seems like a way for rock to vary itself from the other decks.

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I disagree about NO. If you're going to spend 4 Mana, you need it to guarantee that it will either win or put you in a situation that it's hard to lose. Progenitus is nice but not 100% to actually be a board presence. What other options would you suggest? (I'm drawing a blank)

Also, we don't play many creatures. 14-16 is pretty standard. If you remove the Bob's, SFM, and Souls, that's down to 4-6 viable sac outlets for NO.

I also suggest that we try to either re-template or adjust to new possibilities. Let's make something else out of The Rock name since it wanted to leave the thread (looking at nic fit). The stripped down versions are consistent but lack the ability to adapt. There are also less of us testing than most decks. That just makes this more interesting though.

This was where I went since my last post.

3 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Renegade Rallier

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Delue

2 Hidden Stockpile

3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

60 Total
Sideboard

1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Amulet of Safekeeping
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution

Sideboard is 13 now but I would appreciate any criticism on it as an overall.

Remegade railler is nice but i wouldnt use 2 of them in this type od deck witness is better bevouse can take evey pernamnt and spell i’d rather try split 1railer 1 witness and try ...
Also my opinion is to put mother of runes insted of judges familiar maybe 1-2 zenith to search silver bullets ( this decks has nothing for haveyard hate exept ooze that is not tutorable)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

I disagree about NO. If you're going to spend 4 Mana, you need it to guarantee that it will either win or put you in a situation that it's hard to lose. Progenitus is nice but not 100% to actually be a board presence. What other options would you suggest? (I'm drawing a blank)

Also, we don't play many creatures. 14-16 is pretty standard. If you remove the Bob's, SFM, and Souls, that's down to 4-6 viable sac outlets for NO.

I also suggest that we try to either re-template or adjust to new possibilities. Let's make something else out of The Rock name since it wanted to leave the thread (looking at nic fit). The stripped down versions are consistent but lack the ability to adapt. There are also less of us testing than most decks. That just makes this more interesting though.

This was where I went since my last post.

3 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Renegade Rallier

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Delue

2 Hidden Stockpile

3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

60 Total
Sideboard

1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Amulet of Safekeeping
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Zealous Persecution

Sideboard is 13 now but I would appreciate any criticism on it as an overall.

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Fetchlands + Dryad Arbor + Natural Order. You have literally 7 maindeck ways to combo with Natural Order. I'm not saying it's the perfect answer, but I don't think its unreasonable. Hell, just nabbing a Craterhoof Behemoth probably wins you the game on the spot with only a couple Souls tokens on the field. Risky with Dark Confidant, but I could see Natural Order coming in for Confidants out of the sideboard. You lose the velocity in fair matchups but you gain a combo win after disrupting your opponents.

EDIT: My starting list, going to 61 to get land count up to 23. I could see dropping the Scullers, but they always seem to overperform. Now that I'm including Mother of Runes the get even better against fair decks. I could also drop to 1 Library, and put 1 in the board.

3x Mother of Runes
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Tidehollow Sculler

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Sylvan Library
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Collective Brutality
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Batterskull
3x Lingering Souls
2x Liliana of the Veil

4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Wasteland
1x Treetop Village
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Choke
2x Pithing Needle
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Maelstrom Pulse

I don't actually think Mom does enough. The protection is nice but we're not full of creatures. Except for Bob, and Mom, there aren't creatures we only want to keep alive because they offer more than just a body. It seems more a stall tactic for us than a win condition or lock piece (tl;dr she offers us no board improvement).

Personally, I'd rather have the extra time vs some of the decks we're not as good against. Familiar isn't green, strong, or tested (use protection folks... I joke!) But it is a flying force spike (to instants and sorceries). That buys us time vs most of the decks we're more than bad against (ex: burn, storm, etc.). It also flies, so we can actually connect through the meriad of ground bodies without having to burn our removal. Because I am running rallier over witness, I'm going to give it a whirl for now.

I chose rallier due to some of the same logic people previously used against me (in this thread no less) when comparing TOP vs LIBRARY or even LOAM vs CRUCIBLE. The argument is flawed, but still pretty convincing at times. The short of it, "it's less mana".

I still think it's not the most sound argument I've ever heard due to intended funtions of the previous comparisons but, right now, there is some merit to it as these cards essentially would be performing the same role.

Having things come directly into play seems to be better than going into my hand to be cast at a later point. The limitation of not being able to get spells shouldn't be too much of an issue as I can recover/improve a lock, develop my or hinder their manabase, or improve board presence. I mean, getting Bob is usually good. Plus, with an active Stronghold I can sudo-witness at same upfront, but less overall, cost.

My other thought was KotR. I love Knight and she's always proved useful. After I'm done testing rallier I will likely go back to her.

Mom significantly improves fair matchups, causing opponent's to use an extra removal spell on her or getting your goyfs through in combat. Even if all she did was protect Dark Confidant/Stoneforge Mystic for a turn she has justified her inclusion. I'm actually considering upping my Tidehollow Sculler count because she can protect those as well, turning them into legitimately strong tempo plays (robbing a key spell indefinitely, attacking into combo decks.)

Rallier is definitely a cool card. I've seen it in a few Maverick lists, alongside Ramanup Excavator, which gives it some really good card advantage.

EDIT: Renegade Rallier seems amazing with Knight of the Reliquary as well, and Ramanup Excavator. I don't think you would have to go too deep to include 1-2 GSZ's. At that point you're playing more 'good stuff' with more spells rather than Maverick with more creatures. I kinda like it. IIRC, you were trying this with Hidden Stockpile as well? Rallier gets a lot better with that kind of sacrifice engine, too.

I think if you want extra time against decks then replacing DRS with discard is probably correct. You could even go full-on KnightRock with a lands toolbox, which seems pretty cool.

4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2-4x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek/Duress
4x StP
2-4x Hymn to Tourach
1-3x Abrupt Decay
0-2x Sylvan Library
1x Jitte
1x SoFI/Bskull
1-3x Liliana OTV
0-2x Liliana TLH
0-1x Vindicate/Malestrom Pulse

24 lands (10x fetch, 4x dual, 3x basic, 4x Wasteland, 3x utility lands: Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Maze of ith)

I remember Brian Kibler playing a quad-laser list pre-DRS and it looked sweet. I'll try and dig it up.

With DRS gone, I'm really interested in a Nic-Fit Maverick sort of deck. Since this doesn't really belong in either of those threads, and since people have recently been discussing some similar cards in here, would it be okay to discuss it here?

The list:

GWb The Rock and His Millions

Lands (24)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures (20)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Mother of Runes
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells (16)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit

I'm considering cutting the 4 Thoughtseize for 1 Wasteland, 2 Tireless Tracker, and 1 Ramunap Excavator, but I'm not sure. I feel like Thoughtseize makes alot of sense paired with Cabal Therapy and does a great job of improving combo matchups game one while still being really good against most fair matchups.

I may end up posting this in the Nic-Fit thread instead, but it diverges from their usual gameplan quite a bit...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

With DRS gone, I'm really interested in a Nic-Fit Maverick sort of deck. Since this doesn't really belong in either of those threads, and since people have recently been discussing some similar cards in here, would it be okay to discuss it here?

The list:

GWb The Rock and his millions (Titania)

Lands (24)
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures (20)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Mother of Runes
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells (16)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit

I'm considering cutting the 4 Thoughtseize for 1 Wasteland, 2 Tireless Tracker, and 1 Ramunap Excavator, but I'm not sure. I feel like Thoughtseize makes alot of sense paired with Cabal Therapy and does a great job of improving combo matchups game one while still being really good against most fair matchups.

I may end up posting this in the Nic-Fit thread instead, but it diverges from their usual gameplan quite a bit...

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As you are likely fully aware of, Wasteland + Explorer has natural tension. You are cutting them off duals but feeding them basics, basics that are sure to be there with Wasteland coming back into the forefront of the format. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just awkward. I almost think that it might be better to just play 2x Ghost Quarter and pick off their basics after Vet digs them out.

I also think 2x Thoughtseize should be 2x Collective Brutality. With Excavator you can discard lands and get them back to escalate. Maybe a 25th land to go with it would be smart. You would still have decent g1's against combo decks but also have removal/reach/discard against fair decks.

It's just a starting point. Crop Rotation is probably better than Abrupt Decay in the sideboard. The list probably needs a Phyrexian Tower.

I realize there is slight disynergy with Explorer and Wasteland, but I figured most decks aren't running many basics, although maybe I should do a 2/2 split with GQ/Wasteland instead, like you suggest.

Still, there is a ton of synergy between Explorer and Tracker, so I think there is definitely value to this pile. Combine that with the accel from Explorer to power out a quick Titania protected by Mom just sounds super sweet.

Collective Brutality is definitely a good suggestion, since I can use it to kill my Explorer's if necessary. I was mostly interested in Thoughtseize for its cost, making turn 1 Thoughtseize into turn 2 Therapy + Explorer + flashback Therapy lines, utterly devastating the opponent's hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

It's just a starting point. Crop Rotation is probably better than Abrupt Decay in the sideboard. The list probably needs a Phyrexian Tower.

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I'm pretty sure Crop Rotation is either a maindeck card or none. Do you want more flexibility (like additional Knight activations) or do you want a faster tutor for Bog/Karakas? This is the question really, and my inclination is that Knight is enough with a playset + GSZ. Tower is the main target for Nic Fit decks when they use Crop Rotation (it's my only maindeck target in my list.) If you have Knight active, you already have access to bigger mana so you likely won't activate Knight to get a Tower.

Quote:

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I realize there is slight disynergy with Explorer and Wasteland, but I figured most decks aren't running many basics, although maybe I should do a 2/2 split with GQ/Wasteland instead, like you suggest.

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How does Wasteland further your plan? Are you using it to cut them off mana or utility lands? If you're using Knight as your linchpin to overcome the basics/Wasteland issue, which I think you have to by necessity, then it should work. However, are you sacrificing too much of your gameplan on durdling instead of attacking with big knights FTW?

Quote:

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Still, there is a ton of synergy between Explorer and Tracker, so I think there is definitely value to this pile. Combine that with the accel from Explorer to power out a quick Titania protected by Mom just sounds super sweet.

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It does sound sweet! Why do you need Knight then? Why are you forcing Wasteland? Seems like pretty classic Nic Fit business already. Knight feeds Tracker, which Maverick already does, but so does Crop Rotation. Most Nic Fit variants, mine included, play 2 or more Crop Rotations.

Quote:

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Collective Brutality is definitely a good suggestion, since I can use it to kill my Explorer's if necessary. I was mostly interested in Thoughtseize for its cost, making turn 1 Thoughtseize into turn 2 Therapy + Explorer + flashback Therapy lines, utterly devastating the opponent's hand.

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I use Liliana, the Last Hope as my 8th way to kill Explorers, similar to what Brutality can do. Brutality is a better late-game top-deck than Thoughtseize and 6 1-mana discards is typically enough to see one in your opener a good percentage of the time (I don't have numbers, but I've played for years and 6 has always been a comfortable number for t1 discard.) Nic Fit does this out of the sideboard with Thoughtseize/Duress, and against combo it's necessary. Against fair decks it's good, but probably not as good as just jamming threats that have to be dealt with. If you do go with Brutality I would suggest squeezing in an Eternal Witness. You can discard something to escalate, GSZ > Witness and get it back. Alternatively Volrath's Stronghold can do the same, albeit with only creatures.

Hope this helps...you're in a fairly awkward zone between Maverick and Nic Fit. It's like Nic Fit with Wasteland and without Deeds, or Maverick with bigger mana/threats. *Shrug* Test it out and see how it plays. One thing to note is that not many Nic Fit players have been using Titania lately. I'm not saying it's bad, but most folks have moved away from it (Brael might still be on it, he only plays BG.) Yeah, this probably belongs in the Nic Fit thread TBH.

I am using Stockpile. 2 at present but thinking I may want to go back up to 3.

I was looking into synergies when I was building. That's part of the reason for the mox build with Stockpile + Rallier. From our conversations earlier this year, it worked well but was lacking that extra little something, even with Liliana, The Last Hope to make it worth while. In comes a meta shift and a re-testing of Judge's Familiar.

Judge's Familiar synergized really well with the others and was made better with the printing of Amulet of Safekeeping from the board (been testing it since it was spoiled). It's been a strong enough improvement that I'm tempted to think that Burn and AnT aren't bad match-ups any longer. Tempted, but that's a huge statement for us.

Leonides (thank you) touched on the build's blairingly obvious weakness to non-dredge (Judge's Familiar) graveyard strategies. I'm still checking into solutions here. I may take some of your advice and put back in a Zenith. My issue with Zenith is that, with my build, I'm not a Maverick styled deck. So, there are going to be times where there aren't a lot of good targets or opportunities to do with a Zenith when I get it. It would require a re-design before I could say it was a good idea.

This is also the reason I'm looking into putting back in KotR as well. She's expensive at 3cc but I have time with Familiar + Mox. Don't worry about finding the Kibler version. If I did use Knight, I'll probably revert my landbase to allow for her to be abusive in teh old fashion.

Hanni, I haven't seen you on here for A LONG time. I don't think I've even seen you in The Rock thread since Matt re-did it. How've you been?

For your list, I agree with Safety on your wasteland inclusion. you're right that most decks don't play many basics but, they do play some. I would suggest weeding them out, root and all. 3 Ghost Quarter should be enough with all of the fetching which you have access.

Also, have you done any testing? If so, how was Tracker? You can filter so many lands out so fast that I'm concerned that there won't be enough left over for 'em to be useful. I had tried it in an earlier version but I don't produce enough mana to make it worth while. I know that the actual Rock decks (Nic Fit) like and use 'em. You being a hybrid of builds may or may not.

Edit, 7/12 - I'm testing without Stoneforge package (5 cards) and a Rallier to open room for +2 Knight +3 Flayer, +1 Swords. It makes Mom an annoyance since I'll no longer have Jitte to rely on. Grasping Dunes is subbing in for that right now.

I've done some testing and here's my current 75. If I HAD TO play in a tournament, this would be it. However, I think there are still some kinks to ironed out (especially the sideboard) until the meta settles. But for now...

Lands (23)
3 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Creatures (10)
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (14)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instant (6)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
1 Choke
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pithing Needle
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Zealous Persecution


The major change the take the place of Deathrite shaman is 3 Inquisitions of Kozilek. I tried 3 Mother of Runes and she was just underwhelming. I was convinced that those 3 slots needed to be 1 drops just for curve sake. So, you can do a lot worse than discard. Honestly, the extra discard feels great. It's the early interaction the deck needs, especially vs. the combo matchups. Even late game discard isn't bad vs. grindy decks to sandbag and cast prior to deploying your own threat. For now, it feels suffice.

The 4th DRS slot turned into a Treetop Village. 23 lands feels like where the deck needs to be and I figured that it should be a manland since we're losing 4 viable threats. IMO I don't mind getting it wastelanded since we are so black heavy, it protects our Bayous.

As for minor changes, Liliana, the Last Hope has been cut. All the rumblings of Temur Delver, Jeskai Blade, etc. etc. means she's pretty bad for now. If Strix's come back then she might be resleeved, but for now, shes sidelined. I swapped her for a 4th Souls. I've wanted 4 Souls in the deck this whole time since it's IMO the best card in the deck so it was an easy 1 for 1 swap.

I went down from 3 Hymns to 2 and swapped it for the 4th Thoughtseize. Like I said earlier, we need more 1 mana interaction.

I also swapped main/side the Pulse/ Deluge to where Pulse is now main. This might be wrong, but I LOVE Maelstrom Pulse and it seems more of a Main deck card, than a side (opposite for deluge). We'll see how the meta is.

Also cut the Grafdigger's Cage for 4 Surgicals.

I can see a lot of the sideboard changing (Are Zealous Persecutions even necessary now?) They could be 1/1 split of Diabolic Edict as well.


This is all the information I could gather for now. Input would be appreciated.

I think Noble Hierarch still deserves consideration. I think RUG Delver and mana denial ilk will be coming back (honestly, I'll be sleeving up my Sinkholes soon), Noble is pretty good at hedging. I've tried Birds and they were great at fixing, but super dead after, just as I found in 2012. At least Noble can push your Goyfs into the danger zone against Anglers and larger Knights. Or, run 2/2 Iok and Noble. I feel like once you're at that many pieces of hand disruption, there's also some diminishing returns.

I have a different meta and therefore won't talk about sideboard, but otherwise, I'm pretty onboard with your main. You know I love Cabal Therapy, so I'd run a splits with that.

I'll post my draft tonight.

-Matt

@Kodiamonds, Discard is a good in the earlier parts of the game. As you get Liliana active and hand sizes shrink, it gets worse. Too much discard floods you the same as too many lands. Be careful. My bigger fear for you is that the stock list doesn't work well without luck.

@Matt, I feel like ramping out isn't a real solution to builds. Hierarch is ok but doesn't fill the same roll as Deathrite in the middle/late game. The extra single damage doesn't really do much since we're not swinging with no intention. The Goyf argument is it's best point but when's the last time you were in a stare down? We either kill their goyf and are being aggressive or are being defensive. Hoping they miss the trigger activation and block isn't a strong position.

Everyone, the reason we work is because we stay proactive, cause issues, and/or have a game ending gimmick. Do not stay with the basic stock list. Apples are not only red and green.

Everyone's testing different things and none of us have The Perfect idea. The Meta changes. The best thing we could do is take a step back at the end of every game, match, or tournament and think about what worked, what problems we had, and what problems we cause. Try to improve. Take time. Open gatherer and look into different options. Some will turn out to be bad. Others will be gold.

Morning rant over.

I'm going to be testing testing the below list unless someone posts a strong argument before the tournament. Otherwise, I'll see it tomorrow morning.

3 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grim Flayer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Renegade Rallier

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

3 Hidden Stockpile

3 Mox Diamond
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, The Last Hope

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Grasping Dunes
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

60 Total
Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtsieze
3 Amulet of Safekeeping
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Plague
2 Lost Legacy

15 Total

I feel like there is some serious potential for the old New Horizons draw engine, especially with Excavator in the mix now. I would think 2-3x Horizon Canopy would be very good with Crucible/Excavator, and it triggers your Stockpiles. Maybe that's going too deep, but it seems very good.

tl;dr - Tournament went poorly. Deck needs more card advantage and less gimmick.

Sorry for the delay. I ended up playing with an unintentional substitution.

-1 Horizon Canopy (forgot to pull and sleeve)
+1 Wasteland (had left (or re)sleeved because I can't count to 2 apparently)

Test games to try and warm up a bit were played against a BR ReAnimator deck pre-board. The graveyard has already been noted as a weak point. I did go 2-4 though.

Ended up going 1-3

Round 1 vs Elves. 2-1

Game 1, I kept a less interactive hand from my notes and was quickly overrun by the 4 elves + Craterhoof.
Game 2, I nuked his board into oblivion with removal and eventually dropped a threat.
Game 3, Turn 3 Plague kept him off of anything useful. Until I could close it out.

Round 2 vs Miracles 1-2

Game 1, (Mull to 6) Game went long... bad for me. This is the game that I realized I didn't have the Canopy. Fetched for it with a Crucible in play... was very sad.
Game 2, I ult'ed Liliana and Zombies were too much. Legacy stole his Jaces early.
Game 3, I played according to my poor note taking and Legacy'd Elspeth (notes had this as in hand T2 with the last mana to cast he had brainstormed twice) vs Jace (he admitted to having ripped the next turn). Jace took the game.

Round 3 vs Flow Rock (Nic Fit w/ blue) 1-2

Game 1, I Swords'd his explorer and went to him before he could get online.
Game 2, (Mull to 6) He did to me what I did to Elves...
Game 3, (Mull to 6) Repeat of Game 2.

Round 4 vs Esper Stoneblade 0-2

Game 1, (Mull to 6) I ran out of gas after I played the wrong Liliana while true Name holding Batterskull bashed in my head.
Game 2, (Mull to 5) I forgot to Thoughtseize him after he played Stoneforge for Batterskull and instead played a second stockpile (and then the third). Was on the back foot from there.

Overall:
Knocking the dust off was nice but I don't think it was a good showing from my 75. Most of the time, I was hoping for more cards. With no Stoneforge, Canopy, or Library my only extra cards to hand came from Bob. That's not enough to stay competitive. That being said, I'm still not sure I want Library vs Stockpile. Reintroducing the Stoneforge package will likely be the first avenue explored.

Basics being everywhere REALLY made me want to put Armageddon back in.

Card Thoughts

• I didn't like the Grasping Dunes.
  
  When it showed up, I wish it had been a colored mana (may have been related to the extra wasteland).
• Rallier, while a nice idea, will require a bit more to make work.
  
  This may be because there is only 1. More dedication to it seems... like a future route for now.
• Stockpile was amazing at drawing counters.
  
  The 1/1's that did make the field were irrelevant.
• The land recursion package wasn't that great
  
  I kept forgetting about it (maybe 10 times over the course of the event).
• Kept thinking... I wish I had that arbor instead of that Treetop Village.

The format is unsettled, which is the cause of some of the uncertainty I think. I wouldn't give up yet, just try the small tweeks you suggested. If nothing else you have gotten some real information on how good your test cards really are. My opinion is that Stockpile isn't fantastic as a general utility card, certainly not better than Library. With a deck built to abuse it, like 4x Souls, maybe Bloodghast and Cabal Therapy, it could be amazing. Rallier and Excavator seem out of place when you aren't packing GSZ. It's just too unreliable to count on getting them when you need them, even with Stockpile filtering.

Were the 1/1's really irrelevant? I would think getting free tokens would have been the best part of Stockpile.

Damion, you mean something like:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 SOFF
3 Lingering Souls
3 Decay
3 STP

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Learning Center

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Fetchlands
////

1 Life from the Loam
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
1 Canonist
2 EE/Deed
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless


I'm playing 2x Armageddon in my sideboard of Maverick, so that's possible to do here as well. I'm just not sure what I'd really want to cut. A Relentless and an EE?

@Safety, I'll never give up. the 1/1's were actually useless for when they came out. Partially because they were unable to block TTN or got Deeded away and partially because the decks that they landed against, just didn't care. The Miracles deck burned 2 Forces on stopping them early though. They do have their place, but I'm still up in the air on if they'll stay. I'll give them another chance before I say yes or no.

@Matt, Your suggested list isn't my style. for me it's too straight forward and draw dependent. Also, I don't like using GSZ with limited selections.

Armageddon was proven to work already (Irony, one of th. My old Armageddon list was the starting point. I had forgotten some things that I've remembered the Crucible land recursion package doesn't work well without exploration. You need to power out and filter out your options. I'm going to put it in the board for now and see how things work out. I didn't use the Needles (never drew them) so they'll sit in that slot. I've got two different variants right now that I'm thinking of.

1st is with the Stoneforge package re-introduced.
2nd is with Library.

If anyone is interested in checking them out (feel free to leave feedback here), you can see them both using the link below and going to the "Rock -2" link. Tabs are at the bottom of the sheet. I date everything mm/dd/yy. Older sheets are oldest to newest... I got smarter... kinda.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Damion, you mean something like:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 SOFF
3 Lingering Souls
3 Decay
3 STP

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Learning Center

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Fetchlands
////

1 Life from the Loam
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Choke
1 Canonist
2 EE/Deed
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless


I'm playing 2x Armageddon in my sideboard of Maverick, so that's possible to do here as well. I'm just not sure what I'd really want to cut. A Relentless and an EE?

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Your list has the same amount of hand disruption as mine (9 discard spells). Topdecking one vs a hellbent opponent does suck, but I feel like its been pretty solid in my testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KoDiamonds

Your list has the same amount of hand disruption as mine (9 discard spells). Topdecking one vs a hellbent opponent does suck, but I feel like its been pretty solid in my testing.

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I've always played around 8 discards; it's incredible against any deck, save drege, if you can curve multiples in a row in the early turns, especially with DRS gone. I typically cap out at 5 1-mana discards though, then 3x Hymn to Tourach. I can't emphasize enough how good Collective Brutality can be with Lingering Souls, and it's a hell of a lot better top-deck than Thoughtsieze or Hymn in the late game with hellbent opponents. I'm actually working on finally completing my set of Marsh Flats so I can do a deadguy ale version with Brutality/Souls/Bloodghast/Therapy.

For rock, I would do this:

3-4x Thoughtseize
1-2x Cabal Therapy/Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Hymn
2x Brutality

That gets it up to potentially 10, but again, Brutality is never dead.