Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Man, I could write down the thousand win conditions of that deck, each hit of even Mother of Runes if needed, that grind the hell out of our Ad Nauseam. Thalia hits hard too, but I understand that Hurkyll's Recall doesn't take care of her either. I must admit this is very abstract in my mind, how Trygon can't help us, I mean, I can't settle down on which scenario to bring because it seems there are too many. That overflow of thoughts make me unable to write about it, just to feel how bad the idea seems to me.
But at the same time, I totally understand that feelings aren't something we can argue on, and that doesn't prove you that you're wrong.
I can get over that and try it on my own, it will surely either give me real, concrete scenarios to discuss, or prove me how wrong I was. I acknowledge enough to do that. Coming back to TES seems even harder than before lol.
On an other subject, I read that ''Top Five Legacy Decks'' by the ''experts''. I just wanted to let you know that I can't hate someone who can express his thoughts as clearly as you do. You surely bring some ideas out of the box (sometimes, way too far out of the box, let's admit it, lol), and some of your content can be a bit stretched, but most of the time, it makes sense. I can't agree all the time on substance, but the form is always sharp. I appreciate that. Makes you way more relevant than most around here, if I may. :smile:
I would love to have the same problems as you vs D&T... and not the hell of Miracles....
I would try full of Echoing Truth, I just don't like Trygon because it is slow and it DOES not hits Thalia - now D&T play another Thalia 2.0. hatebear. also if they play Chalice at 0 and they start, landing C.M. and Petals to play Trygon is not an option.
I'm thinking about repeal becuase:
- you can play it for 1 mana to put up Chalice at 0 - which means less cost than E.T.
- you can play it by the same cost as E.T. vs Thalia
- You draw 1 extra card
- Sure you can not play it for a Chalice at 1 - however in my experience vs D&T and even if the start they do not reach the turn to play chalice at 1, for example vs Merfolks they absolutly prefer to play Chalice at 0 because maybe they loose having it in hand and intending to play it at 1. --> By this same reason you can play 4 CoV.
In general I like cards which are polivalent which means I will opt for answers as CoV or ET rather than Hurkils or SS specifically vs D&T, a different approach is vs MUD in which I absolutly prefer Hurkils or Rebuild. :)
EDIT: Conclusions:
Assuming D&T player will play Chalice at 0, likely the best thing you can do is playing 4 CoV.
Just my opinion.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
- Sure you can not play it for a Chalice at 1 - however in my experience vs D&T and even if the start they do not reach the turn to play chalice at 1, for example vs Merfolks they absolutly prefer to play Chalice at 0 because maybe they loose having it in hand and intending to play it at 1. --> By this same reason you can play 4 CoV.
In general I like cards which are polivalent which means I will opt for answers as CoV or ET rather than Hurkils or SS specifically vs D&T, a different approach is vs MUD in which I absolutly prefer Hurkils or Rebuild. :)
EDIT: Conclusions:
Assuming D&T player will play Chalice at 0, likely the best thing you can do is playing 4 CoV.
I appreciate the input, but the reason I'm going so deep in this trouble is Chalice @ 0 + Chalice @ 1 = impossible to win without a CMC2+ removal. Sadly, Repeal doesn't work there.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I'm thinking about repeal becuase:
- you can play it for 1 mana to put up Chalice at 0 - which means less cost than E.T.
- you can play it by the same cost as E.T. vs Thalia
- You draw 1 extra card
- Sure you can not play it for a Chalice at 1 - however in my experience vs D&T and even if the start they do not reach the turn to play chalice at 1, for example vs Merfolks they absolutly prefer to play Chalice at 0 because maybe they loose having it in hand and intending to play it at 1. --> By this same reason you can play 4 CoV.
brilliant! 4cmc vs Thalia (Echoing Truth is 3cmc) and gets countered by Chalice @ 1 sounds like a REAL solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
EDIT: Conclusions:
Assuming D&T player will play Chalice at 0, likely the best thing you can do is playing 4 CoV.
tl;dr: By sideboarding is brilliant, given my opponents are all beyond stupid
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
brilliant! 4cmc vs Thalia (Echoing Truth is 3cmc) and gets countered by Chalice @ 1 sounds like a REAL solution
I knew I was going to be blamed by this I noticed this after editing, but my boss took me to fix some programming bugs and couldn't change the post... anyway Trygon is equally brilliant... and the funny thing is that still you believe is a good thing vs thalia, rishadans, wastealands...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
tl;dr: By sideboarding is brilliant, given my opponents are all beyond stupid
In a deck like D&T which is filled with 2CMC haters, chalice at 1 is likely to not to occur UNLESS they have no others 2CMC hatebears in hand. simple. The unique scenario is If opponent handles 2 Chalice of the void in hand. thats why I think CoV is the best card vs D&T which also plays Chalices. in my experience vs D&T - with no chalices is that they just do not win because of belcher mode - therefore I didnt even need things vs 2CMC haters. Chalice at 0 is likely the best thing they can do...
@LDX:
my definately suggestion is CoV and/or E.T.
or you can play DoN plus artifacts hate like hurkils or serenity, not sure if Drop of honey would be a good idea... then dedicating 7 slots between hurkils and DoN.
in TES statistics are evindent as in no other deck in legacy, you need to assume that things sometimes will not work and if you assume that your oponent will not land 2 chalices before you win, the rest of statistics dictate that you will win on the rest of scenarios, that's why I suggest 4 CoV and I firmly believe so.
Bahamut could you give him your opinión if you are by here?
Apart, any news in regards of new strategy vs Miracles apart of full EtW?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
anyway Trygon is equally brilliant... and the funny thing is that still you believe is a good thing vs thalia, rishadans, wastealands...
Quite brilliant that this comes from the man playing 12 land rainbow manabase adressing a player with 14 land fetchland/Dual manabase. Thalia does not affect Trygon btw. so this point confuses me equally to your claim that EchoingTruth/Repeal vs Thalia is the same manacost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
In a deck like D&T which is filled with 2CMC haters, chalice at 1 is likely to not to occur UNLESS they have no others 2CMC hatebears in hand. simple. The unique scenario is If opponent handles 2 Chalice of the void in hand. thats why I think CoV is the best card vs D&T which also plays Chalices. in my experience vs D&T - with no chalices is that they just do not win because of belcher mode - therefore I didnt even need things vs 2CMC haters. Chalice at 0 is likely the best thing they can do...
"hatebears" like Canonist or Revokoker are also handled by Trygon, just saying. I still have no freaking clue how you want to win through Chalice @ 0 followed by Chalice @ 1 like in Alexandres example with CoV or how a single CoV should dig you out of Chalice @ 0 + more of the "2cmc haters D&T is filled with". The sole fucking problem Alexandre has here is the sheer PILING VOLUME of hate and you promote spot removal which is also negated by a common Card they play turn 2. Continue pointing at the 1 creature D&T runs that Trygon can not totally negate to cheer at your CoV facing Chalice @ 1 or Thalia + Canininst or ... or ... or ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
@LDX:
my definately suggestion is CoV and/or E.T.
or you can play DoN plus artifacts hate like hurkils or serenity, not sure if Drop of honey would be a good idea... then dedicating 7 slots between hurkils and DoN.
in TES statistics are evindent as in no other deck in legacy, you need to assume that things sometimes will not work and if you assume that your oponent will not land 2 chalices before you win, the rest of statistics dictate that you will win on the rest of scenarios, that's why I suggest 4 CoV and I firmly believe so.
Bahamut could you give him your opinión if you are by here?
Apart, any news in regards of new strategy vs Miracles apart of full EtW?
Echoing Truth has the same fucking problem CoV has: Once there are two different permanants which give you a headache, the cards are totally worthless and even Disfigure would do a better job digging you slowly out of the hole than CoV, ET or Repeal.
How the fuck should one ET or CoV win versus Thalia + Canonist or Thalia + Chalice or Canonist + Chalice or other combinations which can hit you in the opponents first three turns?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Quite brilliant that this comes from the man playing 12 land rainbow manabase adressing a player with 14 land fetchland/Dual manabase. Thalia does not affect Trygon btw. so this point confuses me equally to your claim that EchoingTruth/Repeal vs Thalia is the same manacost.
"hatebears" like Canonist or Revokoker are also handled by Trygon, just saying. I still have no freaking clue how you want to win through Chalice @ 0 followed by Chalice @ 1 like in Alexandres example with CoV or how a single CoV should dig you out of Chalice @ 0 + more of the "2cmc haters D&T is filled with". The sole fucking problem Alexandre has here is the sheer PILING VOLUME of hate and you promote spot removal which is also negated by a common Card they play turn 2. Continue pointing at the 1 creature D&T runs that Trygon can not totally negate to cheer at your CoV facing Chalice @ 1 or Thalia + Canininst or ... or ... or ...
Echoing Truth has the same fucking problem CoV has: Once there are two different permanants which give you a headache, the cards are totally worthless and even Disfigure would do a better job digging you slowly out of the hole than CoV, ET or Repeal.
How the fuck should one ET or CoV win versus Thalia + Canonist or Thalia + Chalice or Canonist + Chalice or other combinations which can hit you in the opponents first three turns?
My Dear Lemnear
I agree that the possibilities of Chalice at 0 plus hatebear are the most common and the less common are Chalice at o plus Chaliec at 1, why? because you are allowed to run only 4 copies of Chalice YEAH!
I just say that I will assume I will loose vs Chalice at 0 followed by Chalice at 1 thats simple.
and I assume that if I play CoV and I draw it and my opp. plays a hatebear of 2CMC this will be done by turn 2 - D&T does not play Mox diamond AND in this scenario I just will be happy as:
a) I have CoV
b) I win before the 2CMC hatebear comes into play.
Simple.
If opponent has Chalice and Multiple 2CMC hatebears THEN the opp. will be idiot if does not play Chalice at 0, because Chalice at 1 is a F*** 2CMC!
IF opp, intends to play 2 2CMC haters (thalia or chalice at 1) THEN HE NEEDS to invest other turn more apart from 2nd turn to play the second hatebear! in this scenario AND if opp starts:
a) you CoV EOT to win next turn
b) you win before
Again Simple
NOTE: I recognized in the previous post Repeal was nonnsense
As I said likely the best option to win this D&T plus chalice is:
a) playing 4 DoN and 4 Hurkils
b) playing 4 CoV and assuming before statements.
c) other options are: Enginered explosives or ratched bomb (but can be hit by revoker)
a scenario of 2 2CMC haters in play is nonsense for me playing TES because I just will before the 2nd hatebear land... First 3 turns NO First 2 turns YES.
please let's stop this, I just wanted to give my opinion related LDX stated which can be agreed by you, Superman or batman or God or a jellyfish.
EDIT: Are you planning to come to the Bazar of Moxen Madrid? or any of you stormers?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I just say that I will assume I will loose vs Chalice at 0 followed by Chalice at 1 thats simple.
Admitting that is admitting I'll lose our next league season. I can't do that.
Let's also take the events you're suggesting: Chalice @ 0 + Hatebear, with the solution being Chain of Vapor.
He plays first, Chalice @ 0. I draw, I have Chain of Vapor in hand. Should be good, no? He plays Thalia. Now I can't cast my Chain of Vapor. I could play CoV right now, with Thalia on the stack, for what, his Chalice @ 0? He will play it right after. Now it's my second turn. I drop a land. I have to choose between a bounce on Thalia, or Chalice @ 0. In both cases, I can't play my 0 CMC: they will either get countered, or cost 1, and I don't have the mana to play them.
Turn 3, he drops Wasteland or Rishadan's Port. I can't win from there and will get beaten to death.
Canonist would be the other hate he can drop instead of Thalia, fine. If I use CoV on Chalice, I now can play my artifacts, but only one Ritual, and no engine spells. If I CoV Canonist, I can't play my artifacts and only have one mana left to cast Rituals>Engine>Win.
I would also like to remember you that Enlighten Tutors to grab Chalice, Canonist, or Ratchet Bomb in case of Goblins win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Quite brilliant that this comes from the man playing 12 land rainbow manabase adressing a player with 14 land fetchland/Dual manabase. Thalia does not affect Trygon btw. so this point confuses me equally to your claim that EchoingTruth/Repeal vs Thalia is the same manacost.
"hatebears" like Canonist or Revokoker are also handled by Trygon, just saying. I still have no freaking clue how you want to win through Chalice @ 0 followed by Chalice @ 1 like in Alexandres example with CoV or how a single CoV should dig you out of Chalice @ 0 + more of the "2cmc haters D&T is filled with". The sole fucking problem Alexandre has here is the sheer PILING VOLUME of hate and you promote spot removal which is also negated by a common Card they play turn 2. Continue pointing at the 1 creature D&T runs that Trygon can not totally negate to cheer at your CoV facing Chalice @ 1 or Thalia + Canininst or ... or ... or ...
Echoing Truth has the same fucking problem CoV has: Once there are two different permanants which give you a headache, the cards are totally worthless and even Disfigure would do a better job digging you slowly out of the hole than CoV, ET or Repeal.
How the fuck should one ET or CoV win versus Thalia + Canonist or Thalia + Chalice or Canonist + Chalice or other combinations which can hit you in the opponents first three turns?
I feel understood. What a beautiful feeling.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
My Dear Lemnear
I agree that the possibilities of Chalice at 0 plus hatebear are the most common and the less common are Chalice at o plus Chaliec at 1, why? because you are allowed to run only 4 copies of Chalice YEAH!
doesn't this obvious fact alone render ET a bad option?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I just say that I will assume I will loose vs Chalice at 0 followed by Chalice at 1 thats simple.
In a GP, MKM Tour or the like I would totally agree and just go sideboarding for game two like I would with runn-runna SDT + CB before my opponent really knkws what he/she faces, but we talk about a LOCAL event series with a shitload of "preboarded" hate where you basically face the same opponents every week and you can't just accept those auto-losses every week in a 4-round event. This is not getting Alexandre anywhere and thats the whole context of potential solutions we discuss here and I think we should absolutely stick to the given scenario of making progress in that local environment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
and I assume that if I play CoV and I draw it and my opp. plays a hatebear of 2CMC this will be done by turn 2 - D&T does not play Mox diamond AND in this scenario I just will be happy as:
a) I have CoV
b) I win before the 2CMC hatebear comes into play.
Simple.
Yeah, because the deck has ALWAYS the turn 1 kill in hand so why play even cantrips hahahaha. I know where you are coming from, but given 10 goblin tokens are far from a solid winoption against D&T, limiting possible T1 playlines even further not to talk about games on the draw. Again: We are not talking about a random encounter, but a weekly one. Banking on sheer nut draws each week is no option especially as the local metagame could get the idea to play MindbreakTrap and at this point the whole idea of "winning turn 1" is even more ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
If opponent has Chalice and Multiple 2CMC hatebears THEN the opp. will be idiot if does not play Chalice at 0, because Chalice at 1 is a F*** 2CMC!
obvious again. Your solution of "win turn 1 all the time" is still none I would bank on unless I go all the way and play Belcher. The task here is to find solutions if 2+ if these permanents resolve and personally, I don't see it in trading 1-for-1
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
IF opp, intends to play 2 2CMC haters (thalia or chalice at 1) THEN HE NEEDS to invest other turn more apart from 2nd turn to play the second hatebear! in this scenario AND if opp starts:
a) you CoV EOT to win next turn
b) you win before
Again Simple
TL;DR: Play Belcher and not TES
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
NOTE: I recognized in the previous post Repeal was nonnsense
As I said likely the best option to win this D&T plus chalice is:
a) playing 4 DoN and 4 Hurkils
b) playing 4 CoV and assuming before statements.
c) other options are: Enginered explosives or ratched bomb (but can be hit by revoker)
Explosives is a card I really like in combination with Ad Nauseam, but that card is really expensive, if you plan to use it to get rid of Thalia. The solution a) makes me question if you even plan to beat decks like Miracles or random stuff at all, if you dedicate your whole open sideboard to this matchup in a tournament environment where also the other players prepare their 75 to beat Alexandre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
a scenario of 2 2CMC haters in play is nonsense for me playing TES because I just will before the 2nd hatebear land... First 3 turns NO First 2 turns YES.
If you want to just drop your hand T1 play Belcher or 4 EtWs in your 75 (active) instead of a shittload of narrow solutions (reactive) in SB
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
EDIT: Are you planning to come to the Bazar of Moxen Madrid? or any of you stormers?
Looks like it will kinda collide with a wedding in Vienna (few days later) as I can't take a whole week off work, but I wish you and all stormers attending the best and much fun :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
Admitting that is admitting I'll lose our next league season. I can't do that.
Let's also take the events you're suggesting: Chalice @ 0 + Hatebear, with the solution being Chain of Vapor.
He plays first, Chalice @ 0. I draw, I have Chain of Vapor in hand. Should be good, no? He plays Thalia. Now I can't cast my Chain of Vapor. I could play CoV right now, with Thalia on the stack, for what, his Chalice @ 0? He will play it right after. Now it's my second turn. I drop a land. I have to choose between a bounce on Thalia, or Chalice @ 0. In both cases, I can't play my 0 CMC: they will either get countered, or cost 1, and I don't have the mana to play them.
Turn 3, he drops Wasteland or Rishadan's Port. I can't win from there and will get beaten to death.
Canonist would be the other hate he can drop instead of Thalia, fine. If I use CoV on Chalice, I now can play my artifacts, but only one Ritual, and no engine spells. If I CoV Canonist, I can't play my artifacts and only have one mana left to cast Rituals>Engine>Win.
I would also like to remember you that Enlighten Tutors to grab Chalice, Canonist, or Ratchet Bomb in case of Goblins win.
More or less the matter explained that we discuss here :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LDX
I feel understood. What a beautiful feeling.
Well, its not the first time we discuss the matter and I am well aware of the scenario as of now. In essence, I doubt you will find solutions in trading 1-for-1
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Well, regarding this specific scenario that LDX has at his locals, the unique solution to beeing prepared vs opp. which have dedicated hate to TES is the following:
Play a deck which is opposite to TES lets say Maverick, I would then play Maverick the next 2 tournaments and the 3rd then play TES, maybe the following sequence is correct:
Play MAverick, Play MAverick, Play TES, Play TES, and so on.
if still he wants to play TES - I would suggest instead ANT because ANT has a full of 15 side slots as opposite to TES which has 7 or likes.
In deed I do not expect to win a tournament if I face so much hate...
maybe DDFT is your deck in here, likely this deck is the best storm deck to face hate, I remember when I won torunaments with this trhough a Leyline, Canonist and trini!
Side card options, apart of mentioned:
Drop of Honey, Distopya, the Enchantment that phases out a type of permanents, maybe some goblins that destroy artifact, or DoN plus another kind of Artifact destroyer that can be fetched via E.Tutor, Grim lavamancer maybe? Darkblast?
I just throw ideas...
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Well, regarding this specific scenario that LDX has at his locals, the unique solution to beeing prepared vs opp. which have dedicated hate to TES is the following:
Play a deck which is opposite to TES lets say Maverick, I would then play Maverick the next 2 tournaments and the 3rd then play TES, maybe the following sequence is correct:
Play MAverick, Play MAverick, Play TES, Play TES, and so on.
Indeed a common method to react to inbreed tournaments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
if still he wants to play TES - I would suggest instead ANT because ANT has a full of 15 side slots as opposite to TES which has 7 or likes.
I would agree if the meta would (literally) stifle his decks mana development or if the improved manabase/-acceleration would get him around stuff which presents problems. I think this particular meta (judging from his last seasons reports) is not much softer to ANT than to TES. If his meta was stuffed with Daze/Wasteland/Delver, I would immediately jump ship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
In deed I do not expect to win a tournament if I face so much hate...
maybe DDFT is your deck in here, likely this deck is the best storm deck to face hate, I remember when I won torunaments with this trhough a Leyline, Canonist and trini!
Doomsday has its own problems of being a 3-card combo deck in an age where 1-/2-card combos are the norm. The only 3-card combo deck which saw play in the last years is Reanimator because its much faster than Doomsday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Side card options, apart of mentioned:
Drop of Honey, Distopya, the Enchantment that phases out a type of permanents, maybe some goblins that destroy artifact, or DoN plus another kind of Artifact destroyer that can be fetched via E.Tutor, Grim lavamancer maybe? Darkblast?
I just throw ideas...
Talking about Teferis Realm I guess? If it wasn't practially uncastable vs Thalia, I would have taken more of a testing with this one.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Y'all really should consider blocking him. I've followed this thread for years and haven't missed him tbh
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Any storm pilots going to Philly here?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Any storm pilots going to Philly here?
may show up, but don't plan on playing in main event. i have your deck sleeved up though. (too rusty to throw away games w/ doomsday)
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Posting this here since his inbox is full
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Hi...
Well I'll go to the BOM and I'd like you to give me your strategy to handle miracles,
please let me know:
a) the 75 you'd play
b) the Side for both On the play and on the draw
c) HowToSide with +x and -x
I've been trying several approaches but noone convices me...
the hell of miracles, you cant imagine how I hate this match up...
I'm using the standard 75 but with a 2nd Volcanic Island instead of a Badlands and Thoughtseize instead of Duress in the MD, in the SB I'd have 4 Abrupt Decay/1 Bayou and I generally bring in the Duress and Pyroblast as well. I just board out the Chrome Mox and the Ponder without any deviation on the play/draw, SBing out Empty the Warrens for Tendrils of Agony is debateable tho' as I've been keeping in a copy of Chrome Mox/Ponder and relying on Pyroblast to deal with Meddling Mage on Burning Wish instead. It keeps Ad Nauseam flips uniform to 2 or less damage and people don't really name Burning Wish and/or know you SBed out your kill conditions so they rarely try to take advantage of it.
My SB is something like,
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Massacre
1 Void Snare
1 Duress
1 Pyroblast
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
Principally, I think Bryant and I agree on almost the entire deck, we're like 3 cards off in our 75s and those cards are functionally equivalent. I don't really know a better way to SB vs Miracles, my guess is the worse that matchup is the more you should be inclined to cut the 3rd Chrome Mox for the 7th discard MD and try playing without a kill condition post-board to save space. The matchup just sucks, it's a part of Storm.
Edit: I am kind of surprised tho' that people are still using Duress in the MD over Thoughtseize, especially if they are SBing Thoughtseize as Vendilion Clique isn't very popular and if you are wishing for discard vs aggro-control you need to conserve life. But eh, it's not a big deal.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Got the same PM, but did not see reason to write an essay based on how similar topics went in the last years.
Fortune, I still have no idea why someone should play MB Thoughtseize in a field full of Storm, Miracles and Delver
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Principally, I think Bryant and I agree on almost the entire deck, we're like 3 cards off in our 75s and those cards are functionally equivalent. I don't really know a better way to SB vs Miracles, my guess is the worse that matchup is the more you should be inclined to cut the 3rd Chrome Mox for the 7th discard MD and try playing without a kill condition post-board to save space. The matchup just sucks, it's a part of Storm.
Edit: I am kind of surprised tho' that people are still using Duress in the MD over Thoughtseize, especially if they are SBing Thoughtseize as Vendilion Clique isn't very popular and if you are wishing for discard vs aggro-control you need to conserve life. But eh, it's not a big deal.
Thoughtseize is really for decks like Death & Taxes and combo, not Wishing for against aggro-control. The issue in that match-up is every hit from Delver of Secrets becomes a lot more meaningful when you're providing multiple free shocks (Seize and Probe) while making Ad Nauseam worse. There gets to a point where Empty the Warrens is no longer relevant and your back is up against a wall because of the life loss.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I still see enough D&T and other brews to make having the choice of discarding creatures relevant, if you don't then play Duress instead. As far as SB Thoughtseize not being there to wish for, I understand it isn't meant for that purpose but it doesn't mean that it can't be used that way, sometimes you just get stuck having to discard the last Force of Will in their hand in order to go off and adding life loss on top of tempo loss is where I find it to be most problematic (So SB Thoughtseize is worse than SB Duress at extending its purpose to wishable disruption). As far as losing games to the Shock from the MD Thoughtseize, I agree all of the damage adds up but I don't believe I've lost more games because of it than not being able to discard a creature (I keep track and I would use Duress otherwise, as I have had to in the past). I think it just depends on how linear your meta is, I see a lot of homebrew online, so if all you see is Miracles, Delver, Storm IRL then I probably wouldn't play it and just use a couple of Chain of Vapour in the SB over the extra Empty the Warrens.
Also, I kind of need Thoughtseize MD in order to be able to play Pyroblast in the SB, otherwise there isn't enough space to be able to play without Tendrils of Agony vs Miracles and not be dead to Meddling Mage on Burning Wish, so I guess it depends on wether or not Pyroblast is worth it as well (it's similar to MDing the Bayou in that way, even if it's strictly sub-optimal to Duress the same way Bayou is to any other land then at least it frees up SB space by allowing you to cut Chain of Vapour altogether)
Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, @Bryant what made you change your mind on extra copies of Empty the Warrens and what are you using it against right now?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
I still see enough D&T and other brews to make having the choice of discarding creatures relevant, if you don't then play Duress instead. As far as SB Thoughtseize not being there to wish for, I understand it isn't meant for that purpose but it doesn't mean that it can't be used that way, sometimes you just get stuck having to discard the last Force of Will in their hand in order to go off and adding life loss on top of tempo loss is where I find it to be most problematic (So SB Thoughtseize is worse than SB Duress at extending its purpose to wishable disruption). As far as losing games to the Shock from the MD Thoughtseize, I agree all of the damage adds up but I don't believe I've lost more games because of it than not being able to discard a creature (I keep track and I would use Duress otherwise, as I have had to in the past). I think it just depends on how linear your meta is, I see a lot of homebrew online, so if all you see is Miracles, Delver, Storm IRL then I probably wouldn't play it and just use a couple of Chain of Vapour in the SB over the extra Empty the Warrens.
Against Tempo, not to be wished for against Tempo. The life loss is a real issue there, by all means, if that particular game needs a 3 mana discard spell (some do) - go for it. But I think we're just splitting hairs at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Also, I kind of need Thoughtseize MD in order to be able to play Pyroblast in the SB, otherwise there isn't enough space to be able to play without Tendrils of Agony vs Miracles and not be dead to Meddling Mage on Burning Wish, so I guess it depends on wether or not Pyroblast is worth it as well (it's similar to MDing the Bayou in that way, even if it's strictly sub-optimal to Duress the same way Bayou is to any other land then at least it frees up SB space by allowing you to cut Chain of Vapour altogether)
I'm fine with this, my slot is Seize as it gets use against Miracles AND storm, D&T, etc. I think it just has more purpose, but that said, you're doing it MD to save slots. You just give up more against fast decks and tempo in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Anyway I don't think it's a big deal, @Bryant what made you change your mind on extra copies of Empty the Warrens and what are you using it against right now?
I'm not playing multiple ETW due to sideboard space, if I was, I would be playing two. I found it to be the sweet spot between "hurts my Ad Nauseams too much" and "I see them enough". For more info, I've talked about it in the last few articles on the website.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
@Final Fortune:
Thanks... sometime ago I switched to also 4 A.D. however I still loose to miracles...
But the last tornament I lost was because of overload by c.b. - they just draw them more oftenthan we Decays...
After some tests before that torunament finally I decided that1 A.Veils plus 4Decays was the less worse option...
After some testing I just focused on beeing quicker by adding a 2nd A.Nauseam, but this only Works for games were you start AND planned to T.Seize main and Side.... but still not conviced.
Now the combnation I've been testing is 1of or 2 of Extirpate, because this saves me from multiple c.b. AND Sensiens triggers.
I remember when Lemnear said that MultiEtW plan is the KEY vs Miracles - They just hadn't won that match up vs miracles - they leave terminus or E.E. or pyroclasm or Staticaster...
I've been thinking in adding Surgical instead of Extirpate but the unique reason would be to duress and at the same time Surgical... I really dont know how relevant wold be this... but beeing able to just stop the stack and beeig uncounterable seems better for me...
As said, I still dont have a solid plan vs Miracles...
By the moment I'm thinking in +2 extripate +4 decays +1 bayou = -3C.M., -1EtW, -3 Ponder....
my feeling is that in orderto win miracles you need to fight fire with fire - likely I owuld win this match up with DDFT....
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I don't think the matchup is worth going into contortions over, Autumn's Veil over Xantid Swarm is a good try tho', you just have to accept that Storm is going to have an unfavourable matchup vs control in exchange for being unfair vs anything that isn't playing Islands. More than anything, I think it's about recognizing your opportunities to win a bad matchup and taking them with they appear.
