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The thing about that suite is youre so congested at the 2 drop slot. You already have Goyf, Bob, SFM, Decay, Library, etc. I really want Brutality as well (i am on 4 souls so its perfect) but Hymn is just more powerful and I honestly dont think you can have both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
This points me towards Deadguy Ale instead, actually. Tarmogoyf is great, but I'm not sure it's good enough without blue support. Deadguy can pull off Confidant/SFM as it's 2-mana creatures, leaving slots open for those Brutalities and Hymns. With DRS Rock had a critical mass of powerful threats, but without it the deck slows down a turn and becomes more susceptible to blue disruption (Wasteland/Stifle.) My opinion is that other mana-dorks just aren't enough in a deck that needs all of it's cards to be the best at what they do. DRS was hands-down the best mana-dork ever; birds/noble don't offer enough IMHO. If we go with GSZ, Nic Fit is likely a better fair mid-range deck (again, IMHO.) Once you slow it down a little more with Knights, then Maverick seems to be the logical direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
It's odd, but it isn't the first time I've come to the realization that Tarmogoyf is actually the worst creature in Rock; all it does is beat face. If you're on blue with free counters and tons of ways to dig, Tarmogoyf works wonders because he's the fastest/biggest threat you can drop for 2 mana. Considering how much work I put into getting my Tarmogoyfs, trust me that I don't give up on him lightly. Until the format settles with an obvious replacement for DRS in this deck, I'm on Nic Fit and Deadguy for mid-range non-blue fair decks.
I disagree. Now that Baleful Strix is seeing less play, Tarmogoyf becomes way better. He clocks our combo opponents, and dominates the ground vs. opposing Tarmogoyfs and Nimble Mongoose. Losing green also means we lose Abrupt Decay. I think we can make Junk work, it'll just take a little bit more brain power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
After playing more matches, Lingering Souls actually seems underwhelming. I wonder if we can jam something "broken" in matchups where we can't grind. Something like stage depths to get free wins.
Another option is Green suns Zenith in the 1 drop slot. Thats my next to do list with testing
Land (23)
3x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
Sorcery (15)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Lingering Souls
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Thoughtseize
Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Swords to Plowshares
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library
Creature (10)
3x Dark Confidant
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Tarmogoyf
Artifact (2)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil
This is a rough draft. Green Suns has the highest ceiling for 1 drops here. Sure, we can be more maverick but I really want Thoughtseize + Hymn so its kind of a hybrid. Thoughts?
I think we are seeing different metagames. I know you do MODO a lot, but I only play locally. Strix is as prevalent as ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
So how much does Assassins Trophy help us? Having a clean answer to Jace, Angler, Chalice all in one is pretty huge.
The only outliers are lands; we already had answers to all of those cards, and we even played Wastelands. It seems to be a very good catch-all card, but I'm not sure it makes Rock any more playable than before. *shrug* I could be convinced I guess, but I'm skeptical. The decks that are hard matchups play a bunch of basic lands (Miracles), card advantage (Grixis Control) or combo us in ways that ignore Ass Trophy (Storm, S&T.)Quote:
Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
-Jace - I played maindeck Vindicate, sideboarded Pithing Needles and occasionally Maelstrom Pulse. Maindeck targeted discard was always around 6, sometimes as high as 8. We also have a very clear agro plan of attacking to win. Tarmogoyfs, Lingering Souls, SFM + Equips smashed into Jace pretty effectively.
-Angler - we're a Swords to Plowshares deck that also plays some number of Liliana of the Veil.
-Chalice - I've never gone below 2x Abrupt Decay, occasionally getting to up to 3. All of our most powerful cards are 2 mana (Bob, Goyf, SFM, Hymn). Sideboard always had some number of additional artifact/enchantment hate like Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, Golgari Charm, and even Disenchant occasionally. I didn't have too much trouble when I was running Rock against Chalice decks. The more dangerous card from that deck, in my opinion, was Blood Moon.
In summary: yes it answers all of those cards in one card, making it versatile, but Rock already had multiple answers and ways to play around those particular threats. The decks I always had trouble against were Miracles, Czech Pile, and Shardless (back in the day) because they have absurd levels of card advantage and ways to deal with multiple threats. If you put in Assassin's Trophy:
1) What do you take out?
2) If you run overall less removal because AssTrophy 'does it all', what are you putting into the open slots? Threats? Pw's? More discard?
Has anyone tried any BG Rock builds since the Deathrite ban? 3 colors seem difficult now without a mana dork. I wonder if we can also slide in the Stage Depths combo in a transformational sideboard? Thoughts on this?
It worked awesome with DRS, but without it i've been on straight turbo depths with maindeck confidants. It plays a lot like bg rock post-board. I was skeptical about how grindy the deck could be, but i was pleasantly surprised. Depths has fast combos and the ability to grind. Its also easily customizable, which appeals to a lot of rock players.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
Imho, its better to play fast combo and get grindy post board rather than start grindy and try to speed up post board. Just my thoughts, I've been really happy with turbo depths.
I mean, if you're just going to go with BG Rock, then NicFit is likely just better than, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
Would you mind posting or PMing me your list? Im curious how it would look. Is Slow Depths also an option? Just curious of Tarmogoyf is an option in this style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
No problem, will do.
EDIT: In regards to slow depths, it took *2* top8 slots at this most recent Eternal Weekend. I'm not sure if they are on David Long's list (Mox Diamond/Loam) or if it was just maindeck Decay/Library with additional threats (like Gurmag Angler.)
Thanks for the work you put into getting those lists together! Delving more into it, the combo nature of the deck just isnt my style. I think Tireless Tracker is my favorite card and randomly going back a bunch of pages, Ive found that she was actually tested!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
With DRS gone, we can probably try going up to 23-24 lands. With a creature suite of 4 Goyf, 3 Bob, 3 Tracker, along with 7 discard spells, 4 planeswalkers, and 2-3 Libraries, I wonder if Rock can be viable in this meta.
To be honest, I havent played legacy since the banning and I want to see if I can make a Tireless Tracker rock deck work. The deck seems pretty threat light however, but it looks built to grind with Bobs, Trackers, Libraries, and possibly Loam?
Im thinking out loud here, but does this skeleton have merit?
Natural Order/Progenitus + some mana dorks + Cabal Therapy seems like it would cover that whole "free wins"/not clogging up the deck concept if you didn't want to go with the Depths/Stage combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by KoDiamonds
There really isn't a card for Rock currently that tips the scales enough, IMHO. Tracker + 24 lands seems like a decent starting point. Maybe what you're looking for is something like Jund, where you can use Bloodbraid Elf to gain card advantage? In this metagame without DRS I think BBE seems pretty decent. I could definitely see a 24 land jund list with BBE + Tracker and having a very good grind plan.
I've done this before, way back, and it's pretty great out of the sideboard. It takes up only 5-6 slots if you build your deck accordingly (like 1-2x maindeck Dryad Arbor.) I can imagine a 7 card package: 4x NO and 3x silver bullets for specific matchups, probably Progenitus, Ruric Thar, and Carnage Tyrant. I debated doing this in Depths actually, just to give it an alternative win-condition against Death and Taxes (Progenitus FTW.)Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
EDIT: Confidants would have to be boarded out I think. NO + fatties raises your curve quite a bit and losing to blind Bob flips would give the feel-bads.
What matchups are you even trying to solve with NO? Grixis is a rock deck that normally plays maindeck edicts, miracles has terminus. Any UBx fair deck is going to play edicts and even white decks now have an answer with judgement. If NO wasn't good post top ban there is absolutely no way it's viable now. If you want to play progenitus just cut all the bad cards from your deck and play TNN + cantrips.
In a deck with Lingering Souls, Natural Order into Progenitus is viable because the tokens protect from Edicts. If they have a wiper for the tokens and the edict for Progenitus, after several discards, then good on them. Miracles with Terminus is still a problem but Gaddock Teeg is a way to combat that situation, one easily accomplished with some number of main/side GSZ. Teeg has been in a staple in Rock sideboards since it was printed. It morphs Rock into an slower elves deck with better removal/disruption suite. TNN + Cantrips is definitely a way to go, provided you have the card pool available, but I can see the appeal of slamming Tarmogoyfs while opponent's are trying to dodge Progenitus. I call it the Splinter Twin philosophy, which I noticed back when Splinter Twin was a dominant force in Modern. The threat of the combo makes opponent's play differently, often losing to weird small dorks or Tarmogoyfs.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I may be speaking out of turn, but I think he's trying to find a way to put Rock into a similar power level to the rest of the format. With DRS it could somewhat keep up, without DRS it becomes essentially a worse version of any other mid-range deck. One way to continue playing Rock, but get the power level up to required levels, is to play Depths or Natural Order, discard into combo while threatening with Tarmogoyfs. I don't think he's trying to span any matchup gaps, just find a way to continue playing Rock. If I could play Rock in the current metagame I would, it's the deck that I started on in Legacy 10 years ago. I have gone full-tilt into Turbo Depths, which IMHO is the only truly viable 'Rock' type of deck in the current environment. It plays a lot of the same elements with discard, removal, confidants, libraries but can actually close out games super fast. I won't criticize someone trying to fly the Rock flag though, because I love the deck.
Hi guys, I newly registered here, but have been reading this (and some other) threads for 2 or more years now. I really loved The Rock when DRS was legal but now that its gone, it was really hard to find a list thats consistant and strong enough to be competitive. My first ever legacy deck that I still really love is Maverick.
So I decided to combine both of those decks, and it works really well so far, been testing it for 2 months now.
Lets start with the current list:
Creatures:
3 Green Suns Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
1 BoP
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kotr
3 Lingering Souls
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Scooze
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Dryad Arbor
Discard:
3 Thoughtseize
2 IoK
Removal:
4 STP
2 Ass Trophy
Grinders:
3 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Lands:
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extraction
1 Ass Trophy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Lingering Souls
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Now some explanations:
In the Maindeck I cut the Hymn because without DRS they were hard to play on t2 consistantly without getting problems with wastelands. I also cut Goyfs because they are just bad these days. Kotr obv is the best beater if ure on Zenith so its autoinclude. Scooze, Ramunap and KoA are a great toolbox.
The 3 Souls Main are damn strong against the meta. 5 Discardspells for T1 have been great for me when DRS was legal, and they are still great now.
The Manadorks are great, but Im not sure if I want to cut 1 or to of them and then add the 4th Zenith instead. Thats something Im gonna try in the future. Sometimes it bad that the Dorks dont add B, but they arent DRS of course.
The most interesting things in the Maindeck should be 3 Sylvan and the Walkers. Well, 3 Sylvan has been the optimal for me because I want to find one in almost every game and Ive seen some other Rock lists playing 3 copies of it. They help in the mid- and lategame to avoid drawing discards or Manadorks when u dont want to draw them anymore.
As for the Walkers I found Last Hope just to be the better of the Lillys atm, but this might change if the meta changes. Sorin is an idea I stole from the DGA lists and it is really really strong so far, even though Ive only drawn him a few times. Maybe another cmc 4 tokengenerating Walker would be as good/better. Ill test it a little more.
Volraths Stronghold is an idea I got from the Maverick Discord Channel and it is really strong in this deck.
The Sideboard:
I cut hymn from the Maindeck because of the double black costs but I want them against Miracels, Grixis and Combo so I kept them in SB.
In the gravehateslots I split between Surgical and Spellbomb because Spellbomb also comes in against so many decks and cantrips. It really helps fighting Snappys even if u dont use it ur opponent has to avoid running into it if its in play. But Im not sure if I want to stay at 4 gravehate tbh.
The Zealous and Trophies in SB should be obv, and so are Teeg and Qasali in a GSZ build.
The additional Souls and Sorin are flexslots Im trying out atm. One of those cards will always stay a card for the control MU, the other might be something different depending on the meta.
Cards I tested but didnt like:
Choke. This card is really good sometimes in the control MU but sometimes it is just bad or doesnt really help since ure already too much behind. Walkers and Souls are way better for the control MUs and can also be used in nonblue MUs.
SFM package. I know its a sacrilege to play Souls with Stoneforge but I cut him when DRS was legal and Im still happy with it. The deck cant afford spending so many slots to this card. Its strong, but I cant afford to run them cause of space. And I know its strenghts since i played it before in the Rock and in DNT , and I still run it in Punishing Maverick. If I had a 70 cards deck, I would run it.
Walking Ballista. Another Idea from the Maverick Discord. It was okay, but all in all, Souls and Lilly just do the grinding better then Ballista. Might give it another try if DNT becomes huge again.
Tarmogoyf. Maybe I can add a single copy as a GSZ target because I love goyf, but its just way worse than Kotr and even Kotr has some problems because of Strix and Push being everywhere.
Liliana of the Veil. Man is this card great. I really love her (and the artwork is great as well :P )but without hymn and DRS she became worse. We cant often afford to paly her T2 because Hierarchs dont make black and we dont want to fetch our nonbasics in most MUs. Also I found Last hope to be better in the late and midgame since without hymn we wont hellbent our opponents really often.
Tireles Tracker. I never ever ever liked this guy even though I tried it out in Maverick and The Rock.
Cards I still want to test:
Thrun. Always not sure if he is better than a Walker when ure on GSZ.
Mystic Enforcer. Another idea from the Maverick discord and I want to try it because it seems really cute.
Cabal Pit. With Kotr and Ramunap and a deck that gets to threshold really fast this land might be awesome. I just dont know what to cut for it yet.
Sry if my english isnt that good and also sry for the really long post.
Any thought and criticism welcome.
No Green sun means your random singletons that you usually would like in Maverick are bad. Especially Dryad Arbor.