All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Poron

To make counts on the basis of the frequency in the top8 it is necessary to unbias the numbers for the number of subscriptions.

If Miracle pilots were 70% of the total and Eldrazi players were 1% of the total to have just one of both in the top 8 would give a totally different lecture to the data (even tough it's still the same: 1 and 1).

We need more data. This said: I love blue since I was 9 but Sorcery speed cantrips (unless it's mana free) just sounds as a time walk for the opponent and I have never like it.

I fail to understand the popularity of Ponder. Dig Through Time was huge because it was Instant. Treasure Cruise was huge because for U netted you three cards, but Ponder.. I don't really understand

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We have been down this rabbit hole before. To repeat what I said last time, more data is always better but that does not mean I will not work with what I have. Now just because I do not have everything does not mean I can not draw statistically significant conclusions from trend lines shown in that data. That said, this is a talk that normally happens in the B/R thread. I do not know how long this thread is going to last before it goes fully down that path itself.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

... To repeat what I said last time, more data is always better but that does not mean I will not work with what I have. ...

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I think Poron's comment was intended as a critique of Finn's argument rather than as commentary on the DtB section.

WotC has been pushing the creature / value axis pretty hard of late. I wouldn't be too surprised if something from Kaladesh pushes the meta a bit more toward combo again.

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Originally Posted by maharis

This year's EE top 8 was:

3x Miracles
Infect
Grixis Delver
Reanimator
Punishing Maverick
Death & Taxes

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Thsts an impressive 37.5% of the T8. Whats the decks current metagame share? Did it drop or rose since I collected the data. I just read that Eldrazis share rose by 37% to current 9% total

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Originally Posted by Poron

I fail to understand the popularity of Ponder. Dig Through Time was huge because it was Instant. Treasure Cruise was huge because for U netted you three cards, but Ponder.. I don't really understand

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I am confused that you are confused.

Ponder - U
SORCERY
cherrypick one of the top 3 cards of your library. You may sac a fetchland afterwards to not draw the remaining two cards. If you dont cherrypick, shuffle your library and draw a 4th option instead.

The share of top 8s is relevant information for anyone who's goal is to win a tournament. Take a 100-player tournament: One player riding his brew to the top 8/16 is a nice story but Magic is a game of variance. Looking at what tops a wide range of tournaments is the best way to identify what you should prepare for, and it influences your own deck selection as well.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Thsts an impressive 37.5% of the T8. Whats the decks current metagame share? Did it drop or rose since I collected the data. I just read that Eldrazis share rose by 37% to current 9% total

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Not quite sure what time frame/data you are working with but a cursory glance at sites that provide metagame data put Miracles at anywhere from 10% to 14% of the metagame, with Eldrazi coming in at anywhere from 7%-11%.

isn't a Snapmaster Mage a Mentor a Counterbalance a Thoughtseize a Show and Tell all better draws?

When you have a Top on the field or a Sylvan Library Ponder is good just with Mentor or for FoW pitching.

Also, to shuffle every deck nowadays plays 8 fetchlands..

If you can't see the power of ponder I don't know what to tell you. Replace all ponders with impulse and check your win % afterwards I guess.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I think the format is clearly narrower than its ever been in the 4-ish years I've been playing it regularly. Eldrazi has basically soaked up all the space for non-blue midrange decks and Chalice decks, while Miracles pushes out longtime stalwarts like tempo, Stoneblade decks of all colors, and any other deck leaning on a low curve.

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But isn't this the natural progression for a meta?. A newcomer steps in and steals an unexploited share of the format. The format contracts while players figure out how to deal with the newcomer. Then time passes and players tinker creating new spins on it. Some of these become siblings of the original deck while others fill a new niche and are more like cousins. Over time the cousins may no longer look anything alike.

I see that now as Eldrazi gets tinkered with and White Eldrazi becoming a thing.

Without being a Delver historian, I will go out on a limb and say RUG Tempo Threshold was the first to truly exploit the card. Then, once it had been proven, we started to see U/R Delver, BUG Delver, and Patriot Delver. U/R and BUG clearly have found their niche while Patriot seems to have dwindled.

Before that we saw a similar thing with Stoneblade, initially being U/W then moving towards Esper.

I will try it even though I prefer counters in the 2cc slots, I think I will try to put card advantage at the 3mana slot.

in a list with 4 Top and 4 Brainstorms I wouldn't play more than 2 Ponders. You'll have turn 1and 2 too weak else.

Better 1 Spell Snare and 1 more Counterspell.

If only there was a way ti give Jace Flash... :cry:

The only positive thing: I see only 1 Delver deck (in case the Grixis list was playing it). Finally.

The most retarded creature ever

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Originally Posted by Poron

...
If only there was a way ti give Jace Flash... :cry:
...

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There is - Leyline of Anticipation but the benefit doesn't seem to justify playing it.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Without being a Delver historian, I will go out on a limb and say RUG Tempo Threshold was the first to truly exploit the card. Then, once it had been proven, we started to see U/R Delver, BUG Delver, and Patriot Delver. U/R and BUG clearly have found their niche while Patriot seems to have dwindled.

Before that we saw a similar thing with Stoneblade, initially being U/W then moving towards Esper.

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Delver was riduculous obvious to include in tempo and RUG was the established Tempo deck. It was a mindless deed to throw in Delver and no way near an achievement "to make it fit". There was zero deck development.

UR Delver wasnt a thing before WotC powercreeped red and blue creatures with snapcaster/Delver/TNN/Swiftspear and later Treasure Cruise, with the Sorcery also being a totally obvious fit in cantrip+fetchland.dec.

Patriot was just en vogue because SFM+Equip outclassed the classic Tarmogoyf aggro in the format and the move away from the Stifle towards a midrange focus was a result of the more stable manabases. Everyone was playing SFM at that time so it was just a matter of time until blue delver decks absorbed white and dropped green.

BUG Delver was nothing new either. Tombstalker and Hymn were around for ages and played by tempo as a two-off. What made the deck actually good in the long run were Decay and DRS. Shardless is actually a direct successor to BUG Delver, dropping the tempo aspect of Delve-Creatures and Daze for their signature card advantage engine. Shardless and Patriot are similar midrange traits of their BUG/RUG ancestors if you want to see it that way.

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Originally Posted by Poron

isn't a Snapmaster Mage a Mentor a Counterbalance a Thoughtseize a Show and Tell all better draws?

When you have a Top on the field or a Sylvan Library Ponder is good just with Mentor or for FoW pitching.

Also, to shuffle every deck nowadays plays 8 fetchlands..

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Please tell me how you legally play more than 4 S&T? Ponder is a redundancy tool. Pointing at SDTs card selection is misleading as it straight up ignores every aspect of tempo and mana. Looking at the top 3 with Ponder and shuffling afterwards is 1 mana, with SDT the same costs you 2 mana and a fetchland

PS: I cannot believe I have to point out why ponder is extremely powerful and why it got banned in Modern and restricted in Vintage

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Originally Posted by maharis

The share of top 8s is relevant information for anyone who's goal is to win a tournament. Take a 100-player tournament: One player riding his brew to the top 8/16 is a nice story but Magic is a game of variance. Looking at what tops a wide range of tournaments is the best way to identify what you should prepare for, and it influences your own deck selection as well.

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What you should prepare for, yes, I agree.

So this isn't saying anything to your point proper, but many players take the top8 results as a short list of the best decks. Seeing Miracles take a 100 man tournament reinforces the notion that it's the best deck, but when you see that 50 players showed up with the same list, meanwhile that homebrew took second place; might just be lucky breaks or maybe there is something there. But just saying "variance" and walking away doesn't render an accurate representation of the reality.

I may be going out on a limb here, but it sounds like there's a degree of "we don't like cards that make decks work well" in this thread. It's a lot easier to throw a bunch of static-effect permanents into a deck than it is to make a combo work, so I don't really get why it's bothering people (not everyone, but a few posters) that Brainstorm is used so widely. Especially because T1-T2 Brainstorm is rarely a play that says, "you don't get to play cards anymore," the way that a number of hatebears/hate-rocks are.

It's worth pointing out that the most degenerate, ridiculous, lightspeed, (un?)fun combo decks play neither Brainstorm nor Ponder.

If anything, Brainstorm and Ponder make the format more diverse—and, I would argue, more interesting—rather than less so. I've never appreciated the "cantrip cartel" argument because a) the "cartel" takes up only between 8 and 16 cards in decks, depending on whether you count fetchlands, and b) the decks that use the cantrips use them to such widely differing ends. As an example, a T1 Island into Ponder indicates a whole lot less about what you're facing than, e.g., Savannah into Mother of Runes or Ancient Tomb into Chalice.

No offense intended to anybody; I just think the argument that Brainstorm and Pals are ruining diversity or are unfair is unfounded.

As much as I love the fact that there is only one blue deck in the DTB section, it only takes a quick scan of the DTB Philosophy thread to see that the format is about as diverse and interesting as we have ever seen. In broad generalizations the format has switched to a three headed monster of Blue, Prison and Combo Decks with aggro decks being non existent in a format as powerful as Legacy. This is almost as clear cut as the original Solidarity/Threshold/Goblins that everyone is always nostalgic about.

The blue shell is by far and away the strongest shell in legacy and has been for years, the ability to find/filter through your deck for minimal cost is clearly the best thing you can do in legacy, add counter magic and the best win condition in the game and it is easy to see why blue is the most played color. This month shows just how far the other shells have come in the past (few)years in that they can almost go toe-to-toe with the great blue menace. even if we have to do some "Hollywood" accounting it is an impressive showing.

Making cards that are powerful but cannot be assimilated by Blue is a tough task, and one that WotC has been fighting for years. DnT and Eldrazi are perfect examples of decks that Wizards has pushed for the format to increase the diversity, even the Stage/Depths combo is a recent addition to the format that pushed Lands from fringe to playable.

I for one am very happy that the format isn't just 4 different Delver variants, 4 Stoneblade lists of varying color combination, 3 different Deathrite decks and 2 guys playing whatever Show and Tell list is best for the meta. (notice that most of these decks share 75% of the same cards[not a real percentage])

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I for one am very happy that the format isn't just 4 different Delver variants, 4 Stoneblade lists of varying color combination, 3 different Deathrite decks and 2 guys playing whatever Show and Tell list is best for the meta. (notice that most of these decks share 75% of the same cards[not a real percentage])

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Instead the format is now 3 different flavors of "you can't play your spells" ... sounds fun

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Instead the format is now 3 different flavors of "you can't play your spells" ... sounds fun

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You have never been able to play your spells at least now there are different ways to stop spell casting... really mixes it up.

Countermagic vs Chalice vs Waste/Port...disruption game is strong. Discard is left out of the mix pretty hard but I am not sure how they could improve discard without it just becoming "blue" or broken.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Snappy title...eh?

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I think it's a combination of factors. I know the deck I play which is a Nic Fit variant has better draw/filtering power than the typical blue deck due to things like Bob, Sylvan Library, SDT, Tireless Tracker and others. Not everything plays those specific cards obviously, but there's just a lot of options these days, helped in large part by SDT. On top of that, some decks just take over a game. They have powerful proactive plans that simply don't care about trying to find answers, or they have a few generic answers like Eldrazi.

I'm really liking the spot Legacy is in right now. I do have to echo another poster though that I think part of it is due to there being less large competitive events. Over a smaller number of rounds, decks with higher variance have more potential.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

You have never been able to play your spells at least now there are different ways to stop spell casting... really mixes it up.

Countermagic vs Chalice vs Waste/Port...disruption game is strong. Discard is left out of the mix pretty hard but I am not sure how they could improve discard without it just becoming "blue" or broken.

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Well, there is a difference between traditional denial/disruption/etc (counters, discard, etc) which traded cards for cards and the uneven state in current Legacy where one side not only "stops spells from casting" but does it a) with a permanent aka static effect and b) creates massive, virtual cardadvantage because one card blocks several of the opponent.

Pardon me, but I dont see ANY difference between Chalice and countertop in being locked out from resolving spells completely and permanently.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Well, there is a difference between traditional denial/disruption/etc (counters, discard, etc) which traded cards for cards and the uneven state in current Legacy where one side not only "stops spells from casting" but does it a) with a permanent aka static effect and b) creates massive, virtual cardadvantage because one card blocks several of the opponent.

Pardon me, but I dont see ANY difference between Chalice and countertop in being locked out from resolving spells completely and permanently.

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While the ends might not feel the same on the opposing end of a lock, the way the cards are built around, implemented and countered are vastly different. I don't need to explain the actual differences between Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void any you have to agree that a deck that plays Chalice cannot(or would not) want to play Counterbalance and visa versa.

Traditional disruption has always been the golden standard for years and as blue disruption vastly overpowered black based disruption the blue shell became the best shell to disrupt your opponents plans. Now that permanent based disruption is a viable strategy the way that we trade cards for cards has to adjust to be able to interact with the disruption which is being played. Cards like Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip are more and more popular as they are instant answers to Counterbalance and Chalice.

Maybe the actual revelation of this thread will be for the community to realize that mainboard, versitile, artifact and enchantment hate is something that needs to be considered seeing how every deck in the DtB fourm(and most of the Established decks as well) have main board targets.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

While the ends might not feel the same on the opposing end of a lock, the way the cards are built around, implemented and countered are vastly different. I don't need to explain the actual differences between Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void any you have to agree that a deck that plays Chalice cannot(or would not) want to play Counterbalance and visa versa.

Traditional disruption has always been the golden standard for years and as blue disruption vastly overpowered black based disruption the blue shell became the best shell to disrupt your opponents plans. Now that permanent based disruption is a viable strategy the way that we trade cards for cards has to adjust to be able to interact with the disruption which is being played. Cards like Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip are more and more popular as they are instant answers to Counterbalance and Chalice.

Maybe the actual revelation of this thread will be for the community to realize that mainboard, versitile, artifact and enchantment hate is something that needs to be considered seeing how every deck in the DtB fourm(and most of the Established decks as well) have main board targets.

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To me the issue now is that it seems like it's Abrupt Decay vs. the meta. I play a lot of other cards, I had Trygon Predator in Bant and BUG decks I played, and I like playing Kolaghan's Command in Jund because it nukes Chalice and brings black something I chumped an Eldrazi with. Both are solid against D&T as well. But the upshot is you want to be playing Abrupt Decay right now and that narrows the range of playable decks and preys on other things.

I'm glad non-blue decks are doing well but we aren't seeing a lot of diversity right now any more than we did with the random non-DTT decks that would make their way into T8s. Honestly, I would've liked to see DTT in the same meta as Eldrazi.

The issue with black disruption is that "the cantrip cartel" is incredibly powerful at nullifying the effects of it (See: Thoughtseize/IoK in modern) and that non-blue decks tend to empty their hands fast enough that discard doesn't do anything after turn 4/5. Do we really think we can get that much more powerful than Unmask, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Cabal Therapy?

I'll just contrast this by talking about discard in modern. One, modern is a faster format with generally more fragile strategies, making discard powerful due to its proactivity and giving hand vision. Two, decks have a harder time recovering from discard since the cantrip options simply aren't that good (Have any of you even played with Serum Visions?). Three, the counterspells in the format are a lot worse, making discard one of the better options for answering "odd" strategies, plus there's no good prison like countertop to help secure the late game for reactive decks. Instead UWR is stuck playing Nahiri as a slower Mentor without a way to lock the opponent out prior to dropping her.

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Originally Posted by ChaosOS

The issue with black disruption is that "the cantrip cartel" is incredibly powerful at nullifying the effects of it (See: Thoughtseize/IoK in modern) and that non-blue decks tend to empty their hands fast enough that discard doesn't do anything after turn 4/5. Do we really think we can get that much more powerful than Unmask, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Cabal Therapy?

I'll just contrast this by talking about discard in modern. One, modern is a faster format with generally more fragile strategies, making discard powerful due to its proactivity and giving hand vision. Two, decks have a harder time recovering from discard since the cantrip options simply aren't that good (Have any of you even played with Serum Visions?). Three, the counterspells in the format are a lot worse, making discard one of the better options for answering "odd" strategies, plus there's no good prison like countertop to help secure the late game for reactive decks. Instead UWR is stuck playing Nahiri as a slower Mentor without a way to lock the opponent out prior to dropping her.

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I did say that black disruption was much worse than blue disruption but it shouldn't take much imagination to think of a non-balanced discard spell.

Bam - B
Instant
Split Second
Target Player Discards Their Hand.

This would immediately make counter spells much worse and discard would suddenly be better than counter magic.

The issue is that permanent based disruption has gotten a huge boost in power level and play ability in the past few years giving us a way to disrupt an opponent that is competitive and doesn't rely on playing blue. Since the balance of playable disruption has changed from U vs B we 1) get a more varied format and 2)have to deal with the disruption packages differently.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Traditional disruption has always been the golden standard for years and as blue disruption vastly overpowered black based disruption the blue shell became the best shell to disrupt your opponents plans. Now that permanent based disruption is a viable strategy the way that we trade cards for cards has to adjust to be able to interact with the disruption which is being played.

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I think permanent-based disruption has long been both part of the format and entirely viable. Also, eight cards do not constitute a "shell."

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I think permanent-based disruption has long been both part of the format and entirely viable. Also, eight cards do not constitute a "shell."

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4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force is kind of a shell.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force is kind of a shell.

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I don't know that I agree with you. You're still looking at a "shell" that encompasses anything from Miracles to High Tide to S&T to Berserk Poison.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I don't know that I agree with you. You're still looking at a "shell" that encompasses anything from Miracles to High Tide to S&T to Berserk Poison.

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We are talking in broad generalizations here but if you say force/brainstorm/ponder as a shell then the win wondition isn't what we are talking about because the win condition varies per playstyle and meta. The shell is a blue based cantrip engine with force of will...fill the rest in was needed.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

We are talking in broad generalizations here but if you say force/brainstorm/ponder as a shell then the win wondition isn't what we are talking about because the win condition varies per playstyle and meta. The shell is a blue based cantrip engine with force of will...fill the rest in was needed.

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Thats like saying Tin Fins (with Force) and Miracles are just the same deck trying to win in different ways...

Well tin fins doesn't play force. I'd argue that brainstorm/ponder/probe is certainly a shell as well. Tin fins and storm are both very similar decks with varying win conditions. Basically every blue deck at this point is play brainstorm, ponder, and probe or force (or both in derp Delver decks). Just because miracles and grixis have varying win conditions doesn't mean games don't look very similar. Basically spend the first couple turns durdling with cantrips and maybe forcing or removing things while you do it, them establish your board and win the game. Do the same thing with tin fins/storm except instead of removal they use discard before they win. Congratulations. You now have the legacy format

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Just because miracles and grixis have varying win conditions doesn't mean games don't look very similar.

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No, they really don't.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Basically spend the first couple turns durdling with cantrips and maybe forcing or removing things while you do it, them establish your board and win the game. Do the same thing with tin fins/storm except instead of removal they use discard before they win. Congratulations. You now have the legacy format

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You might as well say, "Maverick and High Tide play games exactly the same way. They stop their opponents from playing good cards and build up a land base before killing the opponent."

Your argument follows a really reductive line of reasoning. At what point do decks diverge practically in the methods they use to disrupt, threaten, lock, or otherwise win the game against the opponent if all that matters to your argument is the methods they use to develop their game plans? Why is the focus on the cards that enable decks to develop their game plans consistently and not on the cards they use to do those other things? Why doesn't anyone express the same vexation over fetchlands or duals?

Utility cards provide utility. They are not a shell. They are not the engine decks use to win. They enable a variety of (often unique) engines and playstyles, but that's very different from saying that they are the engines that win the game themselves. If you go down that road, it's really not difficult to say that decks that play lands are all using the same engine to win the game: they accumulate resources using uncounterable permanents, then use those resources to play cards that damage or hobble the opponent until the game's over.

And again, the cards in question comprise at most just over a quarter of each deck of which they are a part (I can't imagine how Gitaxian Probe and Force of Will became part of the debate). Why that bothers people so much I really don't understand. Maybe it's just that I've gotten hosed by Eldrazi and D&T enough times to see that the so-called cartel is by no means inviolable.

Again, I'm not trying to be snide with this; I just don't see any merit to the argument that cards that increase consistency are the things that define decks and playstyles. Sure, they enable those decks and playstyles—perhaps they're what define the format for a lot of people—but that's very different from saying that they define the decks that run them.

It's worth pointing out that every cantrip takes a slot that's rather more useful if it holds a piece of permission or business. The trouble is that decks that run cantrips can't play added permission or business without coming apart at the seams. D&T, Eldrazi, Mav, Elves, Painter, Dredge, and Lands don't seem to have that problem.

Ronald, my man, my main dude, when I used the term "broad generalization" I meant exactly that. A broad generalization of decktypes in the legacy meta game. We are also talking about the DtB section which means that Tin Fins is not apart of the conversation.

Tier 3 decks have not been tested to be optimal or are just not as powerful as the tier 1 strategies.

Meagadeus is exactly right with his last post in that at a very basic level the blue shell plays the same set of cards or "shell" as we have been saying.

My excitement with the current mets is that every deck doesn't have to start with 4xbrainstorm and all of the cards that the one mana instant implies i.e. Blue duals, blue fetches, force/ponder/jace/whatever.

Going back to my post I was excited that there was a blue deck, a chalice deck, and two wasteland/port prison decks. lots of non blue, hurray!

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Maybe the actual revelation of this thread will be for the community to realize that mainboard, versitile, artifact and enchantment hate is something that needs to be considered seeing how every deck in the DtB fourm(and most of the Established decks as well) have main board targets.

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Mind coming over to the Elves thread, because I am sick repeating that more Rec.Sages are valuable because of all the targets in the meta and relying on just 1 is no proper way to adress the flood of targets?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Mind coming over to the Elves thread, because I am sick repeating that more Rec.Sages are valuable because of all the targets in the meta and relying on just 1 is no proper way to adress the flood of targets?

Thanks

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Hey, we've been telling you to start your gangsta rapping for the longest time now. You've only got yourself to blame, mister.

Well everybody in the non-blue camp must feel great at the moment. Cards have been so pushed lately, just look at d&t they got Thalia 2.0, Recruiter and Sanctum Prelate. When has a deck gotten so many new powerful tools in such a short timespan?

I don#t understand how think it's better to have more chalice and wasteland/port decks than decks with cantrips. I for one like to play against the latter much more.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Hey, we've been telling you to start your gangsta rapping for the longest time now. You've only got yourself to blame, mister.

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I am trying new paths like a feature artist on my next smash hit ;)

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

Well everybody in the non-blue camp must feel great at the moment. Cards have been so pushed lately, just look at d&t they got Thalia 2.0, Recruiter and Sanctum Prelate. When has a deck gotten so many new powerful tools in such a short timespan?

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Correction: D&T players are happy. Been ages since Elves saw something on the level of this year's D&T madness - 2012 with DRS, Decay, Hoof which put the deck on the map again. After that we've gotten like... Cavern which is harder to utilize than in eg. Goblins or Eldrazi. Maybe Shaman of the Pack if that counts.

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Originally Posted by MorphBerlin

I don't understand how think it's better to have more chalice and wasteland/port decks than decks with cantrips. I for one like to play against the latter much more.

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Waste/Port decks are okay IME, but CBTop/Chalice is often land something before the lockout card lands, "have fun" drawing a card a turn until you die.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Correction: D&T players are happy. Been ages since Elves saw something on the level of this year's D&T madness - 2012 with DRS, Decay, Hoof which put the deck on the map again. After that we've gotten like... Cavern which is harder to utilize than in eg. Goblins or Eldrazi. Maybe Shaman of the Pack if that counts.

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I'd argue Reclamation Sage is probably the best card Elves has gotten recently. Your point stands though, but the Elves shell doesn't really have many flex slots to be fair. At least not in its current shell(s).

Elves also benefitted greatly from the changes to the Legendary supertype. Obviously Lands benefitted more, but really only those two decks saw a significant benefit from the change.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Maybe the actual revelation of this thread will be for the community to realize that mainboard, versitile, artifact and enchantment hate is something that needs to be considered seeing how every deck in the DtB fourm(and most of the Established decks as well) have main board targets.

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I agree with this statement here, however the one issue that I have with this is that as long as decay exists, like tarmogoyf being the best vanilla dude, there is not much else that is even worth running. I've brewed decks up and 2-3 vindicate and just thought to myself, this is honestly just better off being decay most of the time. Obviously decay is less flexible, but being instant gets around the port decks and uncounterable has its obvious benefits. So I agree that the format is hitting a point where having a catch all removal spell is important, the problem is that decay is far and away the best one, with probably councils judgement trailing fairly far behind.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Correction: D&T players are happy. Been ages since Elves saw something on the level of this year's D&T madness - 2012 with DRS, Decay, Hoof which put the deck on the map again. After that we've gotten like... Cavern which is harder to utilize than in eg. Goblins or Eldrazi. Maybe Shaman of the Pack if that counts.

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Ex-Goblins player here (:cry:), please don't complain about Elves not getting enough love from Wotc.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Ronald, my man, my main dude, when I used the term "broad generalization" I meant exactly that. A broad generalization of decktypes in the legacy meta game. We are also talking about the DtB section which means that Tin Fins is not apart of the conversation.

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TinFins is always part of the conversation!

What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, how the format has changed, but really it hasn't, and it still sucks, unless you like how it is and then it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

I don't know that I agree with you. You're still looking at a "shell" that encompasses anything from Miracles to High Tide to S&T to Berserk Poison.

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It's the shell that keeps you from being flooded, or mana screwed. While asmadi guy draws 5 lands in 7 draw steps and goes to the bar. It's the shell that lets a 9 year old Brainstorm into 2 Invigorates and put back 2 extra lands in a flurry of skill intensive, while the not-blue player can't hit his 3rd land drop in his 23 land deck and gets wrecked by a fetus.