[Deck] Goblins

What does Pithing Needle do against ANT and TES? Unlike Revoker, I don't think it stops LED. I may be wrong.

As for Cage, it can be a pretty useful flexible 1-off. It is useful against Nic Fit (depending on the variant) if it carries a combination of Cabal Therapy, GSZ, and Birthing Pod. Maybe even dark Maverick if they carry both the GSZ/NO package. It is useful against Tin Fins, etc. I have it as a 1-off whenever I pilot DnT and I find myself surprised the amount of MU I bring it in against.

As for the Patriot MU, I usually bring in a couple copies of artifact removal, and that's about it. So Tin Street Hooligan, Tuktuk Scrapper, Wear/Tear, Ancient Grudge, and Krosan Grip are probably at the top of the list. An early Earwig Squad to grab a copy Jitte, Skull, and TNN may be a blow-out too.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

EDIT: jrw1985, I noticed in your tournament reports that you have quite some experience with the Delver-decks (don't know if one can put all of them into the same category though). I would like to hear your oppinion on Tier 1 and Tier 2 SB card in those MUs. Here is what I thought would be appropriate: BUG Delver Tier 1: Boartusk Liege Tier 2: Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Perish, Nature’s Ruin, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Earwig Squad, Swang Song Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin King, Tormod’s Crypt Canadian Threshold, (b)URG Delver Tier 1: Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Perish, Nature’s Ruin, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben Tier 2: Calice of the Void, Cabal Therapy, Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast UWR Patriot Delver Tier 1: ? Tier 2: ? What are your suggestions here?

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I don't really sideboard to beat Delver per se. We already run plenty of removal for it. I know that I don't want REB for it.
The best card against Delver decks is usually Rest in Peace. That usually nullifies the other beats and allows you to focus your removal on Delver. So I've never really boarded to kill delver. The burn has always been MD. But I really am thinking of running maybe 2 Goblin Skycutter to the sideboard. Being able to kill Delver or attack for 2 seems totally decent against the format. Skycutter is probably better than Mogg War Marshal now.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

No.
Kicker only applies when you cast a spell.

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Oh how I wish Ruinblaster didn't have Haste and was 1R instead of 2R.

GoboLord, against UWR Patriot, treat it the same way as Deathblade. But they have more removal, and instead of DRS they have Delver. Main problem is still SFM + Equipments. Goblins is the deck that cares the least about TNN. So we don't really need Pyroblast or REB.

I'd put it like this:

Tier 1: TSH, Tuktuk, Ancient Grudge, Wear/Tear, Pyrokinesis
Tier 2: Krosan Grip, etc...
Cards you should NOT put: Stingscourger (they run 10~11 creatures, being the most common configuration 4 Delver, 4 SFM, 2 TNN, Stingscouger can't hit TNN, gives SFM another etb trigger and is meh against Delver (might save you 2 turns).

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I don't really sideboard to beat Delver per se. We already run plenty of removal for it. I know that I don't want REB for it.
The best card against Delver decks is usually Rest in Peace. That usually nullifies the other beats and allows you to focus your removal on Delver. So I've never really boarded to kill delver. The burn has always been MD. But I really am thinking of running maybe 2 Goblin Skycutter to the sideboard. Being able to kill Delver or attack for 2 seems totally decent against the format. Skycutter is probably better than Mogg War Marshal now.

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I feel like tarfire, gempalm are just better than skycutter.

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Originally Posted by potatodavid

I feel like tarfire, gempalm are just better than skycutter.

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Probably, but I intend to test them as well. No reason not to try to learn new things.

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Tier 1: TSH, Tuktuk, Ancient Grudge, Wear/Tear, Pyrokinesis
Tier 2: Krosan Grip, etc...

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Assuming that you have 6-8 Tarfire/Gempalm, isn't Pyrokinesis overkill? It'd be awkward to use Pyrokinesis on just a single Delver or Stoneforge Mystic too. Also, much like the UWx Blade MU, I'd put Krosan Grip in Tier 1, since they would most likely have permission to protect against removal spells. Not giving them the option to use the Jitte counter or bouncing Skull are great additions too.

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Originally Posted by L10

Assuming that you have 6-8 Tarfire/Gempalm, isn't Pyrokinesis overkill? It'd be awkward to use Pyrokinesis on just a single Delver or Stoneforge Mystic too. Also, much like the UWx Blade MU, I'd put Krosan Grip in Tier 1, since they would most likely have permission to protect against removal spells. Not giving them the option to use the Jitte counter or bouncing Skull are great additions too.

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Why is it embarrasing? We are the deck that is able to draw more cards than any other fair deck other than probably Shardless BUG, and decks with less cards run the blue card of that cycle for the exact same effect. Dealing with a problem. If other fair decks are willing to use Force of Will pitching a Blue card to deal with Delver of Secrets, why is it any different for us to pitch a red card to do so? I'll admit your point is far closer to truth against Stoneforge Mystic, because it tutors, than Delver of Secrets. What you need to do is the "relevant" play. Virtual card advantage can be and often times is more valuable than actual card advantage.

TL;DR - Pyrokinesis is very similar to Force of Will in that it deals with problems for similar costs, and that people actually consider that effect worthwhile, as it is a staple of the format.

I wish I was more articulate, as I can't seem to express what I mean. I hope this made sense.

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

Why is it embarrasing? We are the deck that is able to draw more cards than any other fair deck other than probably Shardless BUG, and decks with less cards run the blue card of that cycle for the exact same effect. Dealing with a problem. If other fair decks are willing to use Force of Will pitching a Blue card to deal with Delver of Secrets, why is it any different for us to pitch a red card to do so? I'll admit your point is far closer to truth against Stoneforge Mystic, because it tutors, than Delver of Secrets. What you need to do is the "relevant" play. Virtual card advantage can be and often times is more valuable than actual card advantage.

TL;DR - Pyrokinesis is very similar to Force of Will in that it deals with problems for similar costs, and that people actually consider that effect worthwhile, as it is a staple of the format.

I wish I was more articulate, as I can't seem to express what I mean. I hope this made sense.

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6 years into the deck and this is honestly the first time I read that! Good point, absolutely makes sense.

@ jrw1985, Vandalize and mrblueduck
Thank you for your input on the MUs so far. I have edited the Tier 1 and Tier 2 list of Elves and the "Delver-decks" accordingly.

Next, I'd like to discuss how you guys (everone actually) approaches the "BGx" decks, meaning Jund, Team America, BUG Midrange, Shardless BUG, NicFit. The way I see it they have a very frightening combination of effects that can actually counter our gameplan:

They have cardadvantage (Dark Confidant, Shardless Agent+Ancestral Visions)
they have card quality, i.e. large-enough blockers (Tarmogoyf)
they have targeted discard to strip our CA-engine
and lastly they have a MD answer to Aether Vial.

On top of that those decks are equipped with very effective removal. I think a viable strategy should be to run a solid manabase so that, even if we don't have Aether VIal in play, we can reliably cast our spells. MonoR is optimal, because it provides a more stable manabase, plus: no fetches to feed DRS. As for SB cards I think we should be prepared for Nausea-effects (1-off Boartusk Liege should do it, fo those who are already packing multiple copies of Goblin CHieftain). Also these decks seem to work with their graveyard quite a lot, so some combination of Relic of Progenitus/Rest in Peace (against Tarmogoyfs and DRS) and Sulfuric Vortex (against Punishing Fire, in case of Jund and NicFit) should do it. What are your oppinions?

BUG Delver and Shardless BUG
Tier 1: Boartusk Liege
Tier 2: Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Perish, Nature’s Ruin, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Earwig Squad, Swang Song
Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin King, Tormod’s Crypt

Shardless BUG
Tier 1: Boartusk Liege, Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Perish, Nature’s Ruin
Tier 2: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Earwig Squad, Swang Song

Jund and Nic Fit
Tier 1: Boartusk Liege, Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace
Tier 2: Earwig Squad, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Dismember, Sulfuric Vortex, Perish, Nature’s Ruin

Hey (@ first my apologize for my bad english)

Boartusk Liege is tier 1 against BGx for sure if you ask me. For Plague, drow in sorrows, and so on.
Running it next to couple of chieftains make your creatures hard to remove. The only real problem is toxid deluge. Its almost always a boardwipe.
For that reason Earwig Squad is my card of choise against BGx decks
some of the treaths you can take out wich are game changing:
- Engineerd Plague
- Prenicious Deed
- Drown in Sorrow
- Toxic Deluge
- Moat (theres not a lot decks running it but damn i was happy when i took it out with squad)
- Golgari Charm (when u dont have lords out)
Those cards are really a big problem for us especially when they destroy our vials. Its hard to come back from a board whipe because our strong cards are so high cmc

@Olaf, no, what you are saying makes perfect sense. I guess part of the awkwardness for me is that we have other removal spells to destroy delver and mystic quite easily without the need for card disadvantage. In a vacuum, without other options, yes, pyrokinesis is worthwhile to use against a single deliver or mystic, especially for those who main boards pyrokinesis. But pyrokinesis is not my card of choice to bring in this match up, and I generally try to take the minimalist approach when it comes to sideboarding, as I don't want to dilute ringleader's ability. Of course, the benefit of pyrokinesis is that it is essentially free, giving us the ability to lay a foundation of goblins on board while destroying our opponent's board presence, but I am still not sure that is a good enough reason if it means to dilute the deck with non-goblins. I think if you have at least 6-7 tarfire/gempalm and 2 scrapper/hooligan, that is enough ammo against patriot. Beyond that, I'd rather have cards that builds our own board presence.

As for FoW, usually against aggro/tempo, I will side out a couple or more FOWs depending on their deck and the situation because FOW itself is a card disadvantage. It would be better to just side in cards that answers directly to the deck rather than countering their stuff. So I don't necessarily agree with your example, as far as post board goes. However, I may keep FOW in against the Patriot match up because of mystic and tnn, but not because of delver, but would not mind using FOW on delver if that situation were to come up. Does that make sense? It really depends on context. So, for example, if I am piloting a Patriot Delver deck, and I am facing a mirror match and RUG Delver. This is how I would approach my post-board.

Patriot: -4 FoW, -4 Daze (play), -4 Spell Pierce (draw), +3 REB, +2 Grim Lavamancer, +2 Wear/Tear, +1 TNN

RUG: -4 FoW, -4 Spell Pierce, +2 REB, +2 Grim Lavamancer, +3 Rest in Peace, +1 TNN

So in both cases, I would actually opt to remove FoW completely and use direct answers. While FoW is a powerful legacy staple, it is not always the best solution. Neither is Pyrokinesis.

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Originally Posted by L10

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So in both cases, I would actually opt to remove FoW completely and use direct answers. While FoW is a powerful legacy staple, it is not always the best solution. Neither is Pyrokinesis.

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I am was aware that people board out Force of Will as the match-up gets more grindy, and I actually agree with pretty much everything you said. I just didn't understand why it was embarrassing. Though you did pretty well point out that this is normally a mainbaord Pyrokinesis situation only.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

6 years into the deck and this is honestly the first time I read that! Good point, absolutely makes sense.

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Glad I could shed light. Reminds me of articles I've read about when Force of Will was still under the examiner's light as a possible card for "Type 1."

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

What are your opinions [about sideboarding against the listed decks]?

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Am I the only one to have found Krenko, Mob Boss as a reasonable card against BUG? (AKA, deck's whose only real removal is Abrupt Decay

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

Am I the only one to have found Krenko, Mob Boss as a reasonable card against BUG? (AKA, deck's whose only real removal is Abrupt Decay

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No you are not the only one. I think Krenko is a powerhouse against decks with only abrupt decay. specially with backup from chieftain and boartusk liege. BUG is unable to race you and TNN makes me laugh when i resolve an early krenko. You can just chump the goyf and lead your massive army to victory.

Thats also the reason why i have my doubts about the piledrivers. I know they are good but in the meta these days they are not really gamechangers. Specially with 8(12 because of the double strike) lackey effects we want our goblins to matter.

For example i rather have turn 2 to sneak in boartusk liege and krenko than 2 piledrivers.
I think iam gonna try the list and swap the 2 piledrivers for 1 boartusk liege and 1 Krenko Mobb Boss.
That seems really strong for me against BUG and since more than 20/25 % of my meta are BUG decks i feel good with them in my main deck.

I would like to hear ur guys opinion about the fact that i think its good to swap 2 piledrivers for a boartusk liege and a krenk mobb boss

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

Am I the only one to have found Krenko, Mob Boss as a reasonable card against BUG? (AKA, deck's whose only real removal is Abrupt Decay

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In TA there is only decay, but in shardless there are up to 3 deluge

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

In TA there is only decay, but in shardless there are up to 3 deluge

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True but for that we can board in Earwig/therapy to take the deluge, charm, drown in sorrows, or plague out, the deluge is not main board i guess??
And TA is far more populair than shardless over here.

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Originally Posted by dissy

True but for that we can board in Earwig/therapy to take the deluge, charm, drown in sorrows, or plague out, the deluge is not main board i guess??
And TA is far more populair than shardless over here.

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Unfortunatly deluge is mainboard

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

Unfortunatly deluge is mainboard

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Thats unfortunate ofcourse but still i prefer to play krenko its such a game changer. we dont have weapons that can deal with toxic deluge unless you wanna play a single Earwig Squad main. Wich is not too bad. Just sacrifice another piledriver. like a said before if we have 12 possible lackey triggers we want cards to matter not a piledriver in my oppinion. But iam relatively new to legacy so please correct me if i'am wrong.

Is it possible to use a Goblin Settler/Kiki Jiki package to keep them off the mana to cast Toxic Deluge?

It can happen, but i would say it is extremely optimistic to consider it a reliable plan. If you are connecting with lackey/instigator you are probably winning anyway without kiki/settler. And if you are not connecting with them, you won't be able to keep them off 3 mana with settler.

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Originally Posted by Red Zone

Is it possible to use a Goblin Settler/Kiki Jiki package to keep them off the mana to cast Toxic Deluge?

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No

I think you have a better chance of flashing in a Mirror Entity with an Aether Vial and dumping all your mana into it.