Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
A few other things I've noticed in your code:
- You mulligan to 3 if no creatures - I imagine this skews things when you're running the number of noncreature cards the current test has. Particularly the 22/0 and 26/0 decks, which have only Sigarda for creatures.
- You also bin lands and keep nonlands when scrying, which I imagine reduces the expected odds by a bit.
- If I'm reading it right, the ai will prioritize casting Painful Truths over making mana guys because it values drawing cards more than making late creatures. That'll mean that sometimes you'll have 3 mana t3 and would have 5 mana t5, but if you spend turn 3 casting Truths over Veteran (with pays out t5) and turn 4 casting truths + veteran (paying out t6) over STE, you won't hit when you would have otherwise. Incidentally this would also make the clock a lot slower since the deck won't cast Sigarda unless it has zero copies of Painful Truths left in hand. This might mean that your 'game ends' numbers are actually the point at which the active player casts their seventh Painful Truths and dies, actually. This is supported by your average win numbers for some of the decks - for example, your 18/10 deck had an average end of turn 11, which would require your first attack with Sigarda to be on turn 7, but the deck doesn't expect five mana until after turn six.
- Painful truths is evaluated for play priority as if it draws 3, but doesn't actually draw cards in its additionalplay() script.
Ya, the code is built for another deck type, I didn't want to just write over what I had. The player setup is built so that you can add additional players which come with their own decklists, strategies, and mulligan rules, that's P1 and P2. I literally just took the sligh deck and added cards to it, so it was applying a different strategy from the one the decklist suggested it should use. I figured it wouldn't be a big deal for mana development because every deck wants to make land drops but I wouldn't look at any deeper analysis than that without a more midrange specific AI. The eventual goal is to create a range of decks so that's why it's set up that way and why I'm not trying to look into it for Nic Fit much further than just playing out lands. Doing it correctly involves adding a P3 for Nic Fit and telling it to use that over P1 when the active/non active players are set.
I'll look at the cards drawn thing, I thought I was handling that in the card play method that it inherits because I didn't want to essentially duplicate data in giving it a variable for cards drawn and then a function to draw them. It's possible it was something I was working on and never finished though, I know that's how it used to work though because I ran a bunch of tests with various cantrips against each other (that's why Probe, Serum Visions, and Preordain are in the card list). I may have changed something after that and broke it. The life loss is an easy fix, I'll just tell it to not cast Painful Truths if it's lethal.
Edit: I see what happened now, I was referencing Serum Visions as a refresher for how to write Painful Truths and I didn't notice I put the draw card function into additionalPlay. This is why I say I'm a really bad programmer.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
As promised, here's my report from SCG Columbus on Sneak Fit!
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...t_while_doing/
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
@fireiced: Ethersworn Canonist is a pretty good hatebear.
ok will try it out this weekend :D
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Can confirm Nissa Vital Force deserves being considered as a powerful Walker in nearly all lists. She helps to stabilize, has lots of utility and could also be a wincon. But do we need to side her out vs decks with Rishadan Port? Nissa has so much potential to take over the game, but without the 5/5 land effectively protecting her she is usually just a costly Eternal Witness.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Meyer
Can confirm Nissa Vital Force deserves being considered as a powerful Walker in nearly all lists. She helps to stabilize, has lots of utility and could also be a wincon. But do we need to side her out vs decks with Rishadan Port? Nissa has so much potential to take over the game, but without the 5/5 land effectively protecting her she is usually just a costly Eternal Witness.
I think she still stays. The main decks that apply pressure with Port currently are DnT and Lands.
- Against DnT, buying back a Pernicious Deed is huge, and they're generally low on card advantage so the emblem is a big difference.
- Against lands, they don't really pressure that hard in terms of damage, so the emblem is relatively likely to go off, and is very relevant against all their mana denial.
Also if they're Porting the 5/5, they aren't porting your other lands - she's still +1 mana per turn which is relevant.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
hi, recently I see more and more winter orbs in the sideboard of all the blue tempo decks.
does it really hurt us? I didn't play against it yet but just want to know your opinion.
most of the time we use all of our resources and waiting a few turns before we can answer a threat seems an issue.
especially if we need to pop deed.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cherson
hi, recently I see more and more winter orbs in the sideboard of all the blue tempo decks.
does it really hurt us? I didn't play against it yet but just want to know your opinion.
most of the time we use all of our resources and waiting a few turns before we can answer a threat seems an issue.
especially if we need to pop deed.
It depends on your curve. With some manadorks (DRS is fantastic here) and a low curve it doesn't hurt much. If you're routinely tapping 6-7 lands a turn it hurts a lot. Winter Orb really messes up the SDT plan, unless you have a way to draw 2 cards a turn like Courser to always get a mana and a card.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
I think she still stays. The main decks that apply pressure with Port currently are DnT and Lands.
- Against DnT, buying back a Pernicious Deed is huge, and they're generally low on card advantage so the emblem is a big difference.
- Against lands, they don't really pressure that hard in terms of damage, so the emblem is relatively likely to go off, and is very relevant against all their mana denial.
Also if they're Porting the 5/5, they aren't porting your other lands - she's still +1 mana per turn which is relevant.
I'd also add that since normally you get Ported before your main phase, this gives you interaction with that. Either they wait to Port till you animate a land with Nissa, which lets you use the mana from that land on your main phase, or you get to untap the land with Nissa. Either way, she helps alleviate Port-pressure a lot.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
So I put this together.
4 Verdant Catacombs
5 other fetch land
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Path/Swords
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Brainstorm
2 Oath of Nissa
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Batterskull
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg - might have to be cut since he turns off a ton of the deck, and become a Reclamation Sage or QPM.
Playing in a tournament Sunday, taking either this or Sneak. Am I being too greedy?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
Playing in a tournament Sunday, taking either this or Sneak. Am I being too greedy?
Yes. But go and live the dream, dammit!
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
So I put this together.
.
.
Playing in a tournament Sunday, taking either this or Sneak. Am I being too greedy?
looks like a blast but did u test it so far? adding blue adds so much variety but does it really work out? you don't face mana issues if u get wastelanded and or ported?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cherson
looks like a blast but did u test it so far? adding blue adds so much variety but does it really work out? you don't face mana issues if u get wastelanded and or ported?
I haven't tested this version, but I ran a different build (less planeswalkers, more creatures) which had a very similar manabase. It's not actually that bad - you don't really need multiple U or W sources, and you have enough basics to cast pretty much everything in the deck. Previously, I was running Brainstorm, JTMS, Strix and Glen Elendra as blue cards, and Path, Stoneforge, Sigarda and Teeg as white cards.
Leovold is great against Wasteland and Port, which helps a lot.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
I haven't tested this version, but I ran a different build (less planeswalkers, more creatures) which had a very similar manabase. It's not actually that bad - you don't really need multiple U or W sources, and you have enough basics to cast pretty much everything in the deck. Previously, I was running Brainstorm, JTMS, Strix and Glen Elendra as blue cards, and Path, Stoneforge, Sigarda and Teeg as white cards.
Leovold is great against Wasteland and Port, which helps a lot.
ok. I like the cmc curve a lot but due to the multiple mana costs (leovold, atraxa, strix, decay, deed, sorin) you might face problems if u want to interact or play two spells a turn.
play it! :cool: curious to see if it works out and finally a brainstorm in our deck :eek:
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
So I've been able to find someone willing to lend me the blue duals I don't have (and a Tamiyo) so it looks like we're on for greedy planeswalker stuff. There's another tournament in a couple weeks, so I might try Sneak Attack then and get some more data for that too.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
That looks really greedy and could crash and burn really badly, but it could also be amazing. I'm definitely gonna proxy it up and try it at some point, it looks like a lot of fine. Is Atraxa really worth it though? The only proliferate interaction is really the walkers, but that could be fine.
Manabase looks a little shaky (but I guess the remaining 5x fetches you haven't listed will all be able to get either a forest or a swamp, so it could just be fine).
Only 3 Vet Explorers though? In a 4c deck I'd expect you'd want all 4 for the fixing.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
So I put this together.
4 Verdant Catacombs
5 other fetch land
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Path/Swords
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Brainstorm
2 Oath of Nissa
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Batterskull
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg - might have to be cut since he turns off a ton of the deck, and become a Reclamation Sage or QPM.
Playing in a tournament Sunday, taking either this or Sneak. Am I being too greedy?
Nicol Bolas, Karn and Eureka, where art thou?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthfulcake
That looks really greedy and could crash and burn really badly, but it could also be amazing. I'm definitely gonna proxy it up and try it at some point, it looks like a lot of fine. Is Atraxa really worth it though? The only proliferate interaction is really the walkers, but that could be fine.
Manabase looks a little shaky (but I guess the remaining 5x fetches you haven't listed will all be able to get either a forest or a swamp, so it could just be fine).
Only 3 Vet Explorers though? In a 4c deck I'd expect you'd want all 4 for the fixing.
The mana base has 15G/14B/12U/12W which is just about on the borderline of ok in each one. I'm only playing 3 Explorers because I only think I need 9 ramp cards total (since the main part of my curve is ~4 mana, and I only have two 5-drops and one 6-drop) and I'd rather have the second Deathrite than the fourth Explorer - DRS is easier to cast and I don't want to draw multiple Vets much because I only have 5 basic lands in the deck.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
The mana base has 15G/14B/12U/12W which is just about on the borderline of ok in each one. I'm only playing 3 Explorers because I only think I need 9 ramp cards total (since the main part of my curve is ~4 mana, and I only have two 5-drops and one 6-drop) and I'd rather have the second Deathrite than the fourth Explorer - DRS is easier to cast and I don't want to draw multiple Vets much because I only have 5 basic lands in the deck.
Fair call on the DRS, it fixes your mana perfectly as well with a fetch.
A curve of 4-5 maximises the power of Vet Explorer arguably though, since you get to cast your threats on either T2 in a nut draw scenario or T3 normally. (You can't actually get to 4 mana on turn 2 without the Explorer dying in combat or a Tower as your land drop for turn 2).
Since you're running so many walkers and Strixes (As an artifact), might be worth exploring Traverse the Ulvenwald on another note, since you might be able to get delirium consistently. Traverse could also fix some mana issues, but between Explorer, DRS and fetches I can't see it being a very relevant. Traverse, Academy Ruins and Strix seems like a fun interaction as well, but I doubt the manabase would enjoy a second colorless land.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
So I've been able to find someone willing to lend me the blue duals I don't have (and a Tamiyo) so it looks like we're on for greedy planeswalker stuff. There's another tournament in a couple weeks, so I might try Sneak Attack then and get some more data for that too.
hope u will cast tamiyo ult :smile:
good luck !
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthfulcake
Since you're running so many walkers and Strixes (As an artifact), might be worth exploring Traverse the Ulvenwald on another note, since you might be able to get delirium consistently. Traverse could also fix some mana issues, but between Explorer, DRS and fetches I can't see it being a very relevant. Traverse, Academy Ruins and Strix seems like a fun interaction as well, but I doubt the manabase would enjoy a second colorless land.
Getting Delirium is pretty doable beyond turn ~4 or so. The problem with Traverse is that we can't really afford to play a spell that only does anything relevant beyond turn 4, when we'd need to also include targets for it. It's probably better than the second Sigarda or whatever, but you already run 5 virtual copies with Zenith, and you can't cut those because they give you early ramp and Traverse doesn't.
