Quote:
Originally Posted by dissy
I'm fine with theorizing the route that shows Goblin Piledriver isn't an include anymore, but the Mana Curve is still important...Quote:
Originally Posted by dissy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissy
I'm fine with theorizing the route that shows Goblin Piledriver isn't an include anymore, but the Mana Curve is still important...Quote:
Originally Posted by dissy
Hey, has anyone here seriously considered playing From the Ashes in their sideboard? I have been play testing it in my mono-red build (w/ 10 Mountains) and every time I manage to cast it vs. Cloudpost, MUD, Lands.dec, RUG, and BUG, it has been a complete blow-out, assuming the board is close to even. I am not necessarily worried about counter magic either since they side most of them out post-board anyways. The 3R cost is reasonable because it is not something you want to play in the early game. In a mono-red build, it is pretty much a one-sided Armageddon / Ruination, and is much more brutal than Blood Moon. The fact that it only costs one R makes it easy to cast. Also, it helps us deck thin if that's your thing. Also, the Mountains you get do not come in play tapped. So this means that you can tap a mountain and 3 cavern/port/wasteland and still be able to "combo" off the same turn. I think it has potential. I am just not necessarily sure how to configure my current SB to fit it in.
Very interesting card indeed. Nice find!Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
What MUs do you have in mind?
I like this card a lot, but I wish we didn't have to naturally draw into it, or have it in our opening hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I believe on a second thought the card isn't too great.
Here is a list of MUs where I could bring it in.
* Jund
* Thespian Rock/ Junk
* Shardless BUG
* Team America
* NicFit
* 12 Post
* MUD
* Punishing Maverick
The problem that I see is the following:
We already have a very positive MU against 12post, so why bring in extra SB cards?
It is hard to resolve a cmc 4 spell against MUD, plus our MU is far from bad, so no intentions to bring it in here.
The BGx decks in the list all play DRS and it is not great to put lands in their graveyards when DRS is already on the table. It WILL set them back, I'm not denying that, but it won't win me the game reliablywhen DRS is around. And if I pay 4 mana for a non-goblins card it should better reliably win me the game. Additionally, the BUG decks are ocassionaly playing Daze and or Spell Pierce even after G1, so it's not entirely sure that we will resolve that spell that we need to tap ALL our mana for.
On the other hand I did not fin effective SB cards against these BGx decks...
Flash of Defiance? That's all I got. Oh, and Goblin Skycutter blows.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Edit*
That's not all I got. Why not just play Pyrokinesis? It's a free spell in a format that is all about free shit. It kills Goyf often. And who cares about card disadvantage?
A recent thought on our mana base: it's probably ok to run a mono red build with nothing but Mountains. We pretty much agree that Port is weak, and most folks have cut it. But arguments against Port are still pretty applicable against Wasteland. So maybe we don't need Wasteland. Waste is pretty bad against Dual lands anyway. The only matchups where I feel like I need waste are ones with utility lands. Otherwise the decks to beat either play super redundant mana bases like BUG and RUG Delver, or they play around waste like Miracles does, or they're a combo deck that just doesn't care. So is Waste even necessary anymore? It's not like Glacial Chasm is warping the format. I also think we might be able to do without Cavern. Yes, cavern makes us immune to counterspell a, but we were never too worried about counters to begin with. Running cavern makes us susceptible to Wasteland, and once it is wasted we're susceptible to Daze again. So maybe just don't run cavern!
I'm definitely Feeling like simplifying the deck might be the best way to attack the format right now. It's just a feeling currently. I will test a bit more before making my conclusion.
Yeah, that's the problem I see with the card as well. It seems like a win-more, to the point I can't really see myself justifying adding it in without saturating my sideboard, and it fixes a problem that we may not necessarily have. But the times I was able to cast it from a stale mate I was able to break the deadlock. Though, I feel I can say the same about Purphoros. Which is why I considered asking you guys if you have done further testing. So far, I have tested it against Post MUD, 12 Post, Lands.dec, RUG Delver, and Shardless BUG. Here is my deck and sideboard approach (feel free to criticize):
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tarfire
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Boartusk Liege
2 From the Ashes
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
@Post MUD
-2 Tarfire
-1 Skirk Prospector
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
+2 From the Ashes
+2 Tuktuk Scrapper
My general approach to this MU is to deny their Metalworker and to aggressively port the Sol Lands and Cloudpost. I only got to play this MU once but I honestly did not have problems casting From the Ashes. I think it is because I play 10 basics that is made my land base more stable, and I honestly didn't have issues with mana, period. I was able to cast it through one Lodestone Golem in the field too. But this is not a bad MU either, and I would have kept in Prospector and Sharpshooter if I didn't have From the Ashes. However, because I was able to cast From the Ashes and denied his Metalworker, he was not able to hard cast his Blightsteel Colossus from his hand which he showed me after, which I did not have a Stingscourger to answer against. Regardless, I feel this is a win-more situation.
@12 Post
-2 Tarfire
+2 From the Ashes
Post-board 12 Post can be pretty annoying because they would side Tabernacle, which may be an issue if we do not have Wasteland to answer it. On the other hand, Goblin Settler is the perfect card against Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm too. But like Gobo, I generally do not have issues against this deck. But when I did cast From the Ashes, I was able to win on the same turn when he had Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, and Pithing Needle (on Wasteland) on his field. But Goblin Settler could have probably been the better alternative and Goblin Tinkerer could have taken care of the Pithing Needle.
@Lands.dec
-4 Gempalm Incinerator
-2 Tarfire
+1 Boartusk Liege
+2 From the Ashes
+3 Relic of Progenitus
Against Lands, I just really want to beat him ASAP. Sometimes, it doesn't happen, and I just die a slow, miserable death. From the Ashes was really good in all the games I was able to cast it for obvious reasons. They generally do not run basics except for a lone Forest. I don't really know what else to add. 10/10
@RUG Delver
-2 Tarfire
-1 Stingscourger
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
+1 Boartusk Liege
+1 From the Ashes
+3 Relic of Progenitus
From the Ashes is not needed in this MU. At all. And it would have probably been better if I kept in Sharpshooter. They run on so little land that they can probably top deck a land and still be well off. Though, more often than not, they will be sandbagging a land as something else. But it did surprise him when I cast it, so there is that I guess. But he didn't have extra lands and I was able to steam roll him afterwards.
@Shardless BUG
-3 Goblin Ringleader
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Stingscourger
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
+1 Boartusk Liege
+2 From the Ashes
+3 Pyrokinesis
+3 Relic of Progenitus
I am not entirely sure if this is correct. On one hand, I would like to remove Tarfire because it makes Goyf huge. On the other hand, it is really hard to gain critical mass to make Gempalm Incinerator effective early-mid game, especially with Toxic Deluge and a bunch of hate. Without From the Ashes, I would normally keep in the Goblin Tinkerer and an extra Gempalm Incinerator. I like Tinkerer because he can potentially kill Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix and at the off chance that my opponent has a Jitte in his SB, and that I can cast it freely and attack with it. I also like Pyrokinesis in this MU because despite the card disadvantage, if I don’t use it, my opponent will just make me discard anyways.
I am partial using From the Ashes in this MU because it is really dependent on the board state. Shardless BUG does not really need a lot of mana to be able to run aside from casting Jace. Gobo is right in that even with From the Ashes, they still have Deathrite Shaman for mana. But assuming you were able to either destroy Deathrite or use Relic of Progenitus to remove lands from the graveyard, casting From the Ashes may buy you enough time to rebuild. It actually helped me twice in the dozen games I have played. From my limited testing, I think From the Ashes is worth testing in this match-up. It is discouraging when you whiff it through Ringleader and wish it was something else.
I would also like to note that against blue mages, if they did see From the Ashes on the second game, I always side it out on the third game. This also affects how they SB too because they may opt to add in more counter-magic, which is actually towards my benefit.
Anyways. That's my experience so far from limited testing. I like it. But I may like it because it is new, and not like it in the long run. But I am also giving up Ashen Riders for it against SnT (which is not big in my meta to begin with), which is a very narrow card. Against MY LOCAL meta, I think it is a good card because we do not people piloting niche decks that may warrant using it. And I did manage to make some people laugh.
As a side note, I was inspired to use this card because I use this card in my Norin EDH deck, and always notice how inconsequential the card is. Sometimes, it can actually be beneficial. So for example, if I have 1 Mountains and 6 Cavern/Port/Waste, I can tap all my lands for mana (6R), cast From the Ashes (3), put 6 mountains out and tap all for mana (3RRRRRR), netting me two more potential mana, and a lot more pure red source. Basically, for every n+4 cavern/port/waste you have, you can potentially gain n more mana.
Thanks for reading.
http://i.imgur.com/gvwEQoc.jpg
Maybe cut Cavern, maybe cut Port. But never cut Wasteland. In the matchups you've written about, you'll draw it in the exact moment you'll love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I'm not sure for other decks, but RUG, the "lol, deck with six real lands", really hates to be cut of red against creature hordes. Even with a set of Wastes, your land base will be pretty firm, while you'll still have a chance to snipedown the sole Volcanic, thus turning your Wasteland into a well-timed and well-placed good game device.
After much consideration and testing with several friends today, From the Ashes may not be worth adding after all, unless you want to have a better MU Land.dec. The card is objectively not good in the BGx MU. It did find a home in my Dragon/Mogg-Catcher/Werewolves All-in-Red Stompy deck though, which seems more appropriate since it actually synergies with their gameplan.
Regarding to Rishadan Port. Disregard for a second that is synergies with Aether Vial. The reason why the card is good in the Goblin deck is because of the Goblin's high mana curve. It allows us to slow the opponent down while building our own mana base. Often times, on turn 2, if I have a Rishadan Port + Mountain on the field and the only two drop I have in my hand is a Pilerdriver, I will opt to port my opponent's land because the Piledriver really does not add value to my board state unless I want to increase my Gempalm Incinerator's goblin count.** Port is great when you are trying to buy time while sandbagging important cards to improve different lines of play. The traditional list (the deck posted above) is still my favorite iteration of the deck, which makes me sad because it hasn't changed for several years with the exception of Cavern of Souls and the value of Tarfire increased. However, the traditional list, obviously, has been weakened as other decks gained new toys to play with, especially with the printing of Deathrite Shaman. They can Wasteland the Port and still have mana, which makes Port a liability. So the idea of dropping Rishadan Port and maybe even Wasteland is not a crazy idea. But this requires a completely different list than the traditional list, meaning that you can't just take the traditional list, drop the land-disruption package, and think you will do well. If you were to play a list without Wasteland or Port, it by its very nature has to be a very aggressive deck, with a mentality similar to a Burn deck, where you are trying to drop Goblins every turn and kill your opponent in the shortest amount of time as possible. This is a very different mentality compared to the traditional list, which is more towards the grind-control spectrum. This is more towards the aggro. Admittedly, I had not played the Winstigator list since I started graduate school last year, but this was the last list I came up with that did pretty well in a ~50-man tournament. I made it to the semi-finals before we all decided to split the prize and call it off.
//Lands (22)
16 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Pendelhaven
//Core (16)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
//Creatures (18)
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Settler
//Other (4)
4 Tarfire
The list may be out-dated because I haven't touched it since. But there are some cards that I do think that belongs in the Winsigator list. The first one being Pendelhaven. It allows us to push through Deathrite Shaman with Lackey and Wintigator without the need to removal spells or Chieftain on the field. It can also be used as a defensive too and it works on Matron and Settler if needed. The other card, which I am not sure if had been discussed at all, is Goblin Settler. In this list, I opt to drop the land-disruption package totally, so I still need a card against utility lands. Kiki-Jiki + Goblin Settler is absolutely broken if unchecked. In this list, I would actually just slam down Piledriver and not sandbag it much. I may actually try this list again in two weeks at a local tourney. I just need to brainstorm my SB for this list since it has been a while.
I am sure you guys have better Winstigator lists, since you guys have more experience with it, but I like the idea of adding Pendelhaven and Goblin Settler and dropping the land-disruption package in this hyper-aggressive build. Getting RR is critical. I am not using Chrome Mox because my experience with it in the past has been less than stellar, but I may give it a shot again. Idk yet.
**I will often hold my Piledrivers for several turns until my opponent lower's defenses and play the sandbagged Pilerdrivers with a Goblin Warchief out to sneak in massive damage. Piledriver is not great in the open because it forces the opponent to play more defensively. It's the same reason why Meekstone is a bad sideboard card for us, even though it does not affect us at all.
2nd place. Tournament was in Japan
I think there not enought lands for such as many expensive spells
Creature
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
Spells
4 AEther Vial
3 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis
Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau
4 Mountain
Sideboard
4 Rest in Peace
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 WearTear
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pyrokinesis
What do you guys think are they odds of any goblins being printed in Khans?
@Oleg
Source: http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-169.html
FYI, Mizguchi Kiyoshi's goblin deck may be second on the list, but he didn't take the second place. The final was actually between the Dredge deck and the Stoneforge-Merfolk deck from two months ago. Still, going top 8 at a 142-man tournament is great.
Finals Game
1: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23695037
2: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23695087
3: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23695152
And yes, this deck is quite top heavy, but I think he got away with it by running nine removal spells and relies on cheating in the higher-CMC goblins than casting them. He probably also tried to get away with playing the minimum lands possible based on statistical odds using hypergeometric distribution. With 17-red sources, he has good chance of getting RR by turn 2 and gamble on the third red source by turn 3, which is just enough to play Warren Instigator. At 21 lands, he can safely get his third land drop by turn three and gamble on the fourth land drop on turn 4, which is just enough to play Chieftain or Matron by turn 3, and is justifiable if your objective is to cheat in creatures with 4 and 5 CMC. This does not factor in Aether Vial, fetch lands, Wastelands, or library manipulation, which complicates things. I think it would have been safer if he played with one more mountain.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l8...l/MTG/land.png
Source: http://diestoremoval.com/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=845
If you are interested to watch Mizguchi Kiyoshi play and his approach to goblins, which is usually more interesting than lists, here is a link: http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-134.html
He is fairly aggressive, which is to be expected based on his list. He got second place in this particular invitational event.
Source (with deck list): http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-146.html
Further reading: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...t-your-spells/
FYI, you need 14 red-source to reliably cast Lackey on turn 1. Incidentally, this also means that most decks may not be able to reliably cast Tarfire or Gempalm on turn 1 or 2 if that red source was from Cavern of Souls, but that's the risk to play with full sets of Cavern/Port/Wasteland in the same deck.
Edit:
Similarly, if you want to have RR by turn 2 consistently for Winsitgator, you should have 20 red-source, which is why I run 16 Mountains and 4 Caverns on my build. But sometimes, experience is better than statistics, so use your own judgement.
Very nice to see how he waits that first game. The alphastrike was beautiful. That second game was pure gold, though, however I didn't understand why his opponent didn't play his Charm as a reaction on the MWM trigger, before the Chieftain came into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I find his deck intriguing, but he was very lucky making his landdrops. I would also say 22 land is the bare minimum.
@ Zombiesquisher: no. Let's face it, WotC will not print a playable Goblin in the near future. Let us don't waste a second breath on the 'will there be a playable goblin and what should it be'-discussion anymore, and focus on how to make this deck better. This way, if WotC prints a playable Goblin we will all be very very surprised and very very happy :smile:
@L10, thank you for explanation
In second game he droped MWM, but there is no MWM in decklist=/
Yes, there is... Three to be exact:Quote:
Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
Player Name：Mizuchi Kiyoshi
Deck Name：中華的鬼怪
Deck Designer：明誓寺
/Creature
４《ゴブリンの従僕/Goblin Lackey》
４《ゴブリンの女看守/Goblin Matron》
４《ゴブリンの首謀者/Goblin Ringleader》
４《ゴブリンの酋長/Goblin Chieftain》
３《モグの戦争司令官/Mogg War Marshal》
３《宝石の手の焼却者/Gempalm Incinerator》
２《ゴブリンの戦長/Goblin Warchief》
２《ゴブリンの群衆追い/Goblin Piledriver》
１《棘鞭使い/Stingscourger》
１《群衆の親分、クレンコ/Krenko, Mob Boss》
１《タクタクの潰し屋/Tuktuk Scrapper》
１《鏡割りのキキジキ/Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker》
１《包囲攻撃の司令官/Siege-Gang Commander》
/Spells
４《霊気の薬瓶/AEther Vial》
３《タール火/Tarfire》
１《Pyrokinesis》
/Lands
４《血染めのぬかるみ/Bloodstained Mire》
３《乾燥台地/Arid Mesa》
４《魂の洞窟/Cavern of Souls》
４《不毛の大地/Wasteland》
４《山/Mountain》
２《Plateau》
■Sideboard
４《スレイベンの守護者、サリア/Thalia, Guardian of Thraben》
３《安らかなる眠り/Rest in Peace》
２《摩耗+損耗/Wear+Tear》
２《真髄の針/Pithing Needle》
２《エーテル宣誓会の法学者/Ethersworn Canonist》
１《棘鞭使い/Stingscourger》
１《猪牙のしもべ/Boartusk Liege》
Source: http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-146.html
Last night I got my first official goblins action in a while. New country, new local shop meta.
Instigator build with 4/1 Chieftain-Warchief split, 4/1/1 Tarfire-Gempalm-Stingscourger split, Kiki & Krenko.
Not especially good results, but I'll post for completeness in case GoboLord still keeps track.
1-2 vs BUG Delver
0-2 vs D&T
2-0 vs Deadguy Ale
2-0 vs Miracles
It wasn't the best night for opening hands as I had one good one in 9 games and 7 or 8 mulligans. Great opponents and jovial store atmosphere did much to cure the woes.
Inspired by a build months ago that ran 3x Tin-Street Hooligan in the main, I've been running 2x myself for months. Over the course of 50 matches or so, they've been consistently good to great, and I would consider adding a third copy back in. I cannot remember a single time the lone Warchief has interfered with it. Mana issues are minimal thanks to Cavern supplementing fetches and Taigas.
I'll end by saying that one of the best feelings in Magic is the dense Ringleaders we get after a second or third Terminus.
Hi guys, sorry I haven't been active in the thread for the last few days, I was too busy making the finals of GP Portland and qualifying for the Pro Tour! Our team was able to get 2nd out of 600 teams. What a weekend! :smile: You can check out the coverage of my semifinals draft and match here: http://www.twitch.tv/channelfireball/b/556756230
Anyway, sorry for the non-Goblin content, but I thought I would share since I am so stoked right now.
Congrats! That is quite the accomplishment. When is your next event then?Quote:
Originally Posted by cooljets
Hello goblin players, I'm helping my friend make a goblin deck to play competitively in legacy and we're using the mainboard of a Monored WInstigator list that GoboLord posted earlier but am not really sure what to do about the sideboard. For reference here is the current decklist:
Artifact:
4 AEther Vial
3 Chrome Mox
Creature:
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Warren Instigator
Instant:
4 Tarfire
Land:
4 Cavern of Souls
12 Mountain
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amythest
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Dismember
We're trying to make a sideboard for a blind meta rather than board for a specific meta. Are 4 thorns and 4 chalice good enough against combo? How concerned should you be about the combo matchup? Any other criticisms about the sideboard?
(I know goblins isn't exactly the best deck choice at the moment but goblins are fun as shit to play)