Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
autonom
Here is my new brew: Death & Taxes & Quarters
Creatures:26
4 Mother of Runes
2 Kor Skyfisher
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Renegade Rallier
Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands:23
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
5 Fetch
Sideboard:15
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Chrome Mox
2 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
I played this aproximate list 4W 0L 1D yesterday.
1-1 vs Merfolk: Tight games where I had equipment and he had TNN
2-0 vs Miracles: Pretty easy wins with my D&T cards.
2-1 vs Miracles: He landed entreat in all games, but it was only enough for him to win one of them. The last game he made 4 angels and had Moat out. I Flickered 1 EOT. He attacked with 3 angels. Next turn I flickered the Moat and attacked with all my creatures for the win.
2-0 vs some Grixis deck: I had greedy grixis and BUG decks n mind when building this deck. He did not get into the game. My 4 revokers stopped his Deathrites. My Ghost Quarters, Renegade Ralliers and Flickerwisps keept him from ever reaching 3 mana.
Deck considerations:
4 Renegade Rallier: A strong toolbox card. Can resurrect Wasteland/Ghost Quarter or a hate bear.
4 Phyrexian Revokers: The deck can use a strong mana denial strategy against decks with non-basics, which is better when turning off Deathrite. Deathrite also stops Renegade Rallier. Renegade Rallier can resurrect a falllen Revoker. All these factors make Revoker extra strong in this deck
4 Ghost Quarter: Works as strip mine against half the field. Triggers revolt. Makes for a really strong mana denial plan against non-basic decks with Renegade Rallier, Flickerwisp and even Kor Skyfisher.
2 Kor Skyfisher (flex spots): Instead of Recruiter and Flickerwisps to put recurring threats on the table I use the Renegade Rallier + Kor Skyfisher interaction to keep putting new threats on the table. I can resurrect Kor Skyfisher every turn (the turns that revolt triggers) and get Renegade Rallier back into my hand. Works through Counterbalance with Cavern set on Human. These "flex spots" were a Spirit of the Labyrinth and a Recruiter of the Guard yesterday, but I realized tonight when browsing cards that Kor Skyfisher is strong both for reusing Rallier and getting reused multiple times by Rallier.
3 Chrome Mox: This is for when I need to race. This is against many of the decks that play basics: Burn, UR Delver, Sneak and Show.
The synergy between rallier and skyfisher is interesting. I worry that knight of the reliquary might not be better though.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
autonom
Here is my new brew: Death & Taxes & Quarters
Creatures:26
4 Mother of Runes
2 Kor Skyfisher
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Renegade Rallier
Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands:23
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
5 Fetch
Sideboard:15
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Chrome Mox
2 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
List looks awesome man. I think there needs to be 1-2 recruiter of the guard somewhere. Maybe drop a revoker or a rallier? Kor Skyfisher is something worth looking into. Also unsure about only 3 plains but I don't know how you adjust the list further. SB chrome mox is very interesting. Not sure if that's for me though. The upside of double wasteland/GQ from dropping rallier is ridiculous though.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Warden
List looks awesome man. I think there needs to be 1-2 recruiter of the guard somewhere. Maybe drop a revoker or a rallier? Kor Skyfisher is something worth looking into. Also unsure about only 3 plains but I don't know how you adjust the list further. SB chrome mox is very interesting. Not sure if that's for me though. The upside of double wasteland/GQ from dropping rallier is ridiculous though.
Played against similar build yesterday with Red&Taxes and it is an interesting approach. I remember he played singleton Qasali and some number (saw one) of recruiters. Also there were 4 Leonin Arbiters to make mana denial real against decks with basics. And two Horizon Canopy to maximize Renergade Rallier.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
That sounds like some real spice when it all comes together. Arbiter could be hit or miss though. Did he have any issues with fetches, SFM, or Recruiter? The upside of Rallier is real. It's just a matter of optimizing the build.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Fetches were OK. I suffered much more with my own fetches. I think he had to cut some number of SFMs (and probably 3rd equipment) in order to fit Arbiters, but he never complained about paying 2 for his own search effects. You can sequence your steps optimally and play around your own Arbiter, so no big deal taxing yourself. I'll ask him next week.
What I don't like about playing Renegade is its antisynergy with Rest in Peace against grindy decks. Regenage helps here, no doubt, but I would rather shut down their Shamans, Snapcasters and Goyfs. Interaction with Pridemage against artifact heavy decks is sweet though.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Medea_
@autonom
I'm not sure if that list is good, but I guarantee you that I'll be trying it next week. That looks like a blast.
Nice to hear Medea :-) I look forward to hearing about your results. It has felt strong to me, but I haven't played many games with it.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I think you for once take a page from the Modern Hatebears idea and just cut fetchlands.
There is no reason for that deck to not just run a full set of Savannahs, Canopies and a Razorverge Thicket or two.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Ooh, I like that idea
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Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gh0st_b1rd
I think you for once take a page from the Modern Hatebears idea and just cut fetchlands.
There is no reason for that deck to not just run a full set of Savannahs, Canopies and a Razorverge Thicket or two.
Fetch lands can find basics which can be imortant. In a deck with Renegade Rallier fetch lands help trigger Revolt.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
autonom
Here is my new brew: Death & Taxes & Quarters
Creatures:26
4 Mother of Runes
2 Kor Skyfisher
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Renegade Rallier
Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands:23
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
5 Fetch
Sideboard:15
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Chrome Mox
2 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
I played this aproximate list 4W 0L 1D yesterday.
1-1 vs Merfolk: Tight games where I had equipment and he had TNN
2-0 vs Miracles: Pretty easy wins with my D&T cards.
2-1 vs Miracles: He landed entreat in all games, but it was only enough for him to win one of them. The last game he made 4 angels and had Moat out. I Flickered 1 EOT. He attacked with 3 angels. Next turn I flickered the Moat and attacked with all my creatures for the win.
2-0 vs some Grixis deck: I had greedy grixis and BUG decks n mind when building this deck. He did not get into the game. My 4 revokers stopped his Deathrites. My Ghost Quarters, Renegade Ralliers and Flickerwisps keept him from ever reaching 3 mana.
Deck considerations:
4 Renegade Rallier: A strong toolbox card. Can resurrect Wasteland/Ghost Quarter or a hate bear.
4 Phyrexian Revokers: The deck can use a strong mana denial strategy against decks with non-basics, which is better when turning off Deathrite. Deathrite also stops Renegade Rallier. Renegade Rallier can resurrect a falllen Revoker. All these factors make Revoker extra strong in this deck
4 Ghost Quarter: Works as strip mine against half the field. Triggers revolt. Makes for a really strong mana denial plan against non-basic decks with Renegade Rallier, Flickerwisp and even Kor Skyfisher.
2 Kor Skyfisher (flex spots): Instead of Recruiter and Flickerwisps to put recurring threats on the table I use the Renegade Rallier + Kor Skyfisher interaction to keep putting new threats on the table. I can resurrect Kor Skyfisher every turn (the turns that revolt triggers) and get Renegade Rallier back into my hand. Works through Counterbalance with Cavern set on Human. These "flex spots" were a Spirit of the Labyrinth and a Recruiter of the Guard yesterday, but I realized tonight when browsing cards that Kor Skyfisher is strong both for reusing Rallier and getting reused multiple times by Rallier.
3 Chrome Mox: This is for when I need to race. This is against many of the decks that play basics: Burn, UR Delver, Sneak and Show.
Nice, this list looks really cool! Ever since Rallier was spoiled I've toyed around with the idea of playing it, but never actually got around to testing it out. How's running four of them been for you?
I like the inclusion of Kor Skyfisher in the list, it does synergize quite well with Rallier's ability. Now this may be me being slightly bias as Flickerwisp tricks are one of my favorite parts of DnT - but it also seems like Flickerwisp could actually play quite nicely with Rallier. Of course playing too many of both could raise the curve too high. But flickering a Rallier and then having it returned EOT actually seems pretty good, since its trigger will still happen as it left the battlefield that turn.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
autonom
Fetch lands can find basics which can be imortant. In a deck with Renegade Rallier fetch lands help trigger Revolt.
Your whole deck triggers revolt anyway and fetchlands in tandem with Arbiter is awkward.
Could build the deck around Rallier rather than Arbiter.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I made top 8 with vial maverick (not quite apples to apples for this thread). I tried Rallier as a 1x with 1x Quarter. They were both superb today. I have insight on their implications for DnT. Long story short: KotR is a much better option but GC may replace port in certain builds/metas. I couldn't get behind the Kor Skyfisher + 4 Rallier concept but there are elements of that list that inspired me.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Warden
I made top 8 with vial maverick (not quite apples to apples for this thread). I tried Rallier as a 1x with 1x Quarter. They were both superb today. I have insight on their implications for DnT. Long story short: KotR is a much better option but GC may replace port in certain builds/metas. I couldn't get behind the Kor Skyfisher + 4 Rallier concept but there are elements of that list that inspired me.
I never really liked KotR when I tried out green builds of D&T because you want some kind of board impact NOW instead of a turn later.
Since the mana curve is higher with Rallier, I'd like to see some Noble Hiearchs being used which where the real all-stars in the green build.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
I never really liked KotR when I tried out green builds of D&T because you want some kind of board impact NOW instead of a turn later.
Since the mana curve is higher with Rallier, I'd like to see some Noble Hiearchs being used which where the real all-stars in the green build.
I have my write-up in the Maverick thread here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post996762
I'm biased towards KotR. Repeating what I wrote in the link, I find Rallier to have a lot of potential as a 1x. Maybe a 2x if your list heavily caters to revolt. He's a GW snapcaster. Except even more conditional for an arguably even stronger effect (especially factoring in the colors he's benefiting). You need to both trigger revolt and have something relevant to target. When I double wasteland'ed or ghost quarter'ed, it felt great. But I also recognize Rallier does very little on the table thereafter. KotR, by contrast, thins out my deck + tutors whatever I need (usually wastes) + is almost immediately a combat threat.
The larger issue what to do with an already jam-packed DnT shell. I love the upside of Noble + QPM for exalted triggers. They're insane. I thoroughly enjoy KotR. But there isn't enough space for all the things.
Creatures (27)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch / Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker / Serra Avenger / Qasali Pridemage
3 Flickerwisp
4 Knight of the Reliquary / Mirran Crusader
Non-Creatures (11)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of X and Y
Lands (22)
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I came here to see if there was any discussion of Thomas Enevoldsen's recent tweet (3/19) about testing Ancient Tombs. REALLY surprised that no one has even brought it up!
https://twitter.com/therealenevolds/...67637233881089
How many do you think he's running? What lands do you think he replaced with Tomb?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
f7eleven
I came here to see if there was any discussion of Thomas Enevoldsen's recent tweet (3/19) about testing Ancient Tombs. REALLY surprised that no one has even brought it up!
https://twitter.com/therealenevolds/...67637233881089
How many do you think he's running? What lands do you think he replaced with Tomb?
People have discussed it before, especially when considering Smuggler's Copter. Dig back a few months.
Then there's also the Thalia Stompy thread, and many pages back an article about "The Hateful Eight" on Thraben University.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RobNC
People have discussed it before, especially when considering Smuggler's Copter. Dig back a few months.
Then there's also the Thalia Stompy thread, and many pages back an article about "The Hateful Eight" on Thraben University.
Sure, ya'll mulled it over in the Fall and nothing came of it. But a week ago THE Godfather of D&T says he's testing a list with Tombs. Not a soldier stompy list, not to play Smuggler's Copter, a real DTB D&T. I'm just really curious what his list and results look like, but he's been silent since the tweet. :-/
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hardcasting equipment under Thalia has always been pretty awkward but justing being able to play our Recruiters a turn sooner or just cast a 3 drop and still have mana leftover to Port is enough consideration for me.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
at that point Eldrazi Displacer, Thorn and TKSeer become mandatory and it's a whole other deck
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
f7eleven
Sure, ya'll mulled it over in the Fall and nothing came of it. But a week ago THE Godfather of D&T says he's testing a list with Tombs. Not a soldier stompy list, not to play Smuggler's Copter, a real DTB D&T. I'm just really curious what his list and results look like, but he's been silent since the tweet. :-/
Are there any big Legacy events coming up, so he has to keep his list secret?
