Long ago was before the printing of x card so it's different nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
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Long ago was before the printing of x card so it's different nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
So if your stompy deck get wrecked because it has nothing to smooth out draws and is entually hit by variance at some point in the tournament it's your fault as a deck builder too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
How can a Delver deck overcome a Blood moon or Blood moon easily? It's jsut a question of who has it.
If your deck is predicated upon winning through high risk high reward plays, its not the fault of brainstorm. Plenty of nonblue decks get consistency without brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Sure, its easy to not get hosed by those cards, but its not easy to also not be competitive at the same time. I can happily build a deck of 2, 3, or 4 drops but I will probably lose before I can cast them due to the speed of the format.
I feel like the 'ban Brainstorm' argument is kinda like 'ban guns in America'. There are great arguments for doing both. Both of these things result in death and misery just so a few other people can have fun.
But are we ready for the fallout of banning these things? Do you have a plan to deal with millions of people who are irrationally attached to these objects - people who are willing to die and maybe even kill to keep their Brainstorms?
Maybe it would be a good idea to ban Brainstorm but until you have a plan of action to deal with the Brainstorm militia, it really doesn't matter. This will forever remain a philosophical argument, not a practical one. A philosophical argument we can keep having until the end of time.
That's actually a very good point!Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
+1
While I understand the post is on topic, please do not bring external politics on the site. It's against site rules and I will have to nuke the posts if you do. Otherwise carry-on.
I am not going to stomp down on people for being a smart ass.
I know this is not really the place for this, but if I post this in its own thread it will end up merged with this thread anyway so I will cut the middleman.
I am on Graveyard shift again. Gives me time to think, to reflect. I realised I am not playing Lands of late. Not because I dont enjoy it, not because I don't think it's good but because I am sick of giving a fuck. If I play Lands, something of myself is invested. The deck is half foiled, it's my baby. I want to treat her right. And of late, my lack of giving a shit has meant I have had to put her down.
So I am playing Infect and Stax again. Might fuck around with BUG Control (not Shardless) and other shit. Why? Because I hate what the format is right now. I am sure I have said this before, but is true again if I have. What has gotten to me? I think Miracles.
I am at the point where I have so little invested I will auto concede to the deck. I am playing Stax, I have a good matchup but I just don't want to play it any more. It's not fun and I get to play 4 round events once a week. Why invest my time in something I just hate? I mean, Nic Fit kills me. Deed, Decay and Pulse destroy Stax as it's built now and I would have more fun playing against that all afternoon. I am just sick of Miracles.
I know others will say it's ok, others will agree with me. I am not looking for a circle jerk here. I honestly don't want that. What I want to say is this deck is sucking the fun out of Legacy for me. Not to say I is all bad, it's been fun in moments sometimes it's had the most memorable moments in games I have ever played. But as a whole I just can't anymore. I can not bring myself to invest myself in a situation I see no hope in changing.
I am not enjoying the format with Miracles in it. If it stays, I don't think I can.
As for what has brought this on, I think it was my playing the deck a few months back. It was just... Yea. No matter what side of the table I sit on, I don't have fun with this deck. That and Mentor just... Fuck it. Im rambling.
Well Im kinda on the same lines. I dropped Storm just before the Eldrazi menace and tried many things, but after all now I'm playing Belcher becous I don't care anymore either.
@Dice_Box: I feel the same way about the format with Miracles. Its worst match up is 50/50 which is just insane.
Congrats. Because of Daniel Miller, Sensei's Divining Top will soon be banned in Legacy.
@ Dice: I hate to admit it, but I also feel the same. Yet, despite everything I just like playing Legacy. I tell you one thing though, if it stays like this I'm going to trade in my Lands deck, some other staples, put some money into it, and go Vintage (or just play tabletop Legacy). Just play with friends. Just like old times, just having fun.
I am joining you guys in your pledge, with slight modifications. If they don't ban Food Chain, I'm quitting legacy.
That's because he was literally clowning around with it. I'm not surprised he often won 1-0-1, and if he were on the opposite side of me, I'd consider calling a Judge over for Stalling. Such sloppy play, and blatantly trolling with Top activations.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
I've been saying it for months now. I've gotten to the point that no game against miracles doesn't feel like it hasn't happened before. I mean I think it's mostly because the deck is basically, Orgy of cantrips and top, counterbalance, force and a couple counterspells, stp and terminus, and mentor and snapcaster. Every game plays the same. Cantrip while setting up with top. Wrath your board because terminus is a skill intensive card that costs 1 mana at instant speed, then drop Countertop lock or jace. Remove the 1 or two things your opponent has left that get through counterbalance with stp, win the game at some point while your opponent draws lands
It's funny to have Lands players complaining about how miserable playing against Miracles is. Have you guys ever played against...Lands? Do you really think it's fun for fair decks to face 6 Rishadan Ports / a recurring combo immune to counterspells / Punishing Fire lock / etc. etc?
As a MTGO player, I have to say: welcome to the club, Dice.
The thing is, Lands just folds to Storm most of the time. Playing the deck is a trade. "I choose to stomp Delver, I give up half my sideboard in the hopes of stopping Strom." It's a give and take. Also Bloodmoon, Back to Basics, RIP and other such things just answer us. Lands is a strong deck with defined and exploitable weaknesses. Hell, even a turn one DRS can sometime mean we just lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I don't think it's the same.
It's not the same because it's even more of an extreme matchup deck. But someone at the table is *always* miserable. Lands is built to be either heavily favored (because opponent can barely interact with what your doing) or heavily unfavored (because Lands can barely interact with what they're doing).
It's not to say that nobody has ever had a fun game with Lands, but the deck definitely isn't designed to make your opponent get up and say "I really love playing Magic" after they lose to a 20/20 that they can't interact with. Neither is your Stax deck that's turn 1 Chalicing people and attempting to make their entire game of Magic last 20 seconds. These decks are worse than Miracles, but pretending like Miracles is more oppressive for people just because it happens to be a better deck is silly.
But it is oppressive. I am not going to go into the numbers again, you have seen me make all my arguments before and they are as true now as they were then. In short, a deck that holds top spot in a format uncontested for years, has only one tier 2.5 deck as it's only real predator and is able to control with a vice grip the board and the stack is a problem.
Also you can say Chalice ain't fun, what about a multi CMC one sided Chalice? Seems fair.
Lands loses to Combo and hate. Stax loses to itself and any deck running G/B. Miracles loses to 12 post, MUD and the clock. Oh sorry, thanks to Mentor it doesn't lose to that last one any more. Small mercies I guess.
Miracles has no bad matchups, can't ever lose in theory, and yet it somehow loses all the time in practice. Exactly 1 Miracles deck made the EW t8. How did this happen in a world where it has no bad matchups?
Variance is a bitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I'd be pretty sad to see top go tbh. I'd rather see BS go, but i'll never happen. Countertop has been a staple deck of this format for so many years even well before miracle, and seeing it go would make me a bit sad, even if nowhere as much as seeing survival dying. Not to say about the fact that a lot of non-miracle decks play top. Brainstorm leaving would also easy the blue strangle on the format and you'd risk less a combo resurgence since BS is far more played in combo compared to top.
Alternatively just unban survival i guess, it should be relatively decent vs miracle. Even Eldrazi couldn't actually get a good MU vs that deck. Maybe survival would, even if i'm skeptical about that.
Miracles is as low variance as it gets, the deck is nothing but a big ball of card selection - and as such benefits from longer tournaments. You think that in a room with a bunch of Miracles players and almost zero 'bad matchups', only one person t8'd because...variance? That's it?
Riddle me this: Why does Miracle keep putting up this insane streak? Can you name other decks that has that kind of uncontested record?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
My issue with Miracles, and blue decks in general, is that there is not a strong, 100% reliable, and easy to use piece of hate that decks can use to sideboard against what the deck wants to do. Due to the nature of counterspells whatever you bring in to give your deck the edge against the blue based deck(i.e deck with cantrips and counters) can just counter your foil and move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Wizards makes such strong cards to hate out every other style of deck/strategy: want to play creatures, see terminus/humility/moat/red sweepers/black sweepers etc. Spell Based Combo: see sphere of resistance, trinisphere, gaddock teeg, counterbalance, white hate bears. Graveyard based decks: too many hate cards to list.
Want to play blue based cantrip and counter: choke? chalice of the void? boil? They all have to come down early, not be countered and not be destroyed immediately after(in the case of choke and chalice).
There is really no way to consistently punish the blue mage for executing a predictable strategy.
In my opinion, blizzard just finally needs to print strong anti-blue cards to even the playing field for the other colors.
You make it far too complicated. Miracles trades 1-for-X with countertop and terminus until you are out of options and lose. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I mourned the Chalice vs CounterTop vs Decay format long enough and basically stopped playing/testing/durdling two months ago, because I don't fucking care for Legacy, if the format is defined by killing/locking your opponent out within the first two turns and everything else being tier 2.
This sucks as much as the MUD vs Oath metagame did for half a decade in Vintage.
Edit:
@lavafrogg
We need more uncounterable or splitsecond spells
Funny enough, I'd play against lands all day compared to miracles. There are all colors of cards that torch lands' main game plan, and it feels good to interact on that "Oh shit!" axis.
I like playing around Daze, Wasteland, and a clock. I like playing around the obnoxiousness of D&T even if I simultaneously hate it. I like trying to "gotcha" storm decks and even learned to enjoy the S&T match. I'll take being Hoof'd for a billion because all of those decks have a multitude of interaction available. I'll take being Iona'd and say "well balls I need a new way to interact".
But miracles doesn't have that aspect. It's a 1-trick pony that doesn't have an opposing trick outside of Decay; and unlike it's Elven, Storm, S&T or similar bretheren, it doesn't have to risk cards to perform it's 1-trick. Even then; it'd be more acceptable if Counterbalance said "You win" rather than implied it.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I am sure the Card Creation thread is full of blue hosers that people have already thought of.
Also, your post actually made me finally agree that Top needs to go. Miracles is oppressive to the format and top is the biggest offender by enabling miracles and counterbalance. Without top both miracles and counterbalance are still strong in certain cases, but not broken.
Blue decks could still brainstorm/jace terminus on the top to be drawn naturally, but it would remove the bulk of the instant speed/whenever I want aspect and counterbalance would be a variable chalice of the void against decks that can be enabled with cantrips early and jace late.
@tescrin That's what I said!
I'm going to say the problem with miracles is counterbalance.
The deck can still exist but not be a huge problem like all say it is.
Ban top or bs and I quit mtg because my horde of bs and top become useless for everything.
I'd rather them ban Terminus so as to not kill the deck, but to lower it to tier 2. There is Supreme Verdict and Bonfire of the Damned to replace it so I think the deck will be fine. Banning CB or SDT will completely kill the deck which is pointless and will make many mad as well as make there be 1 less viable deck in the format which is never good.
I'll disagree on learning to enjoy certain match ups, but at least against SnT, elves, storm and such like you said, there exists powerful options in most colors to hate out any of those particular strategies if you want. I dunno.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
For me it's the combination of how miserable the miracles match up is along with the fact that it's so prevalent that over a 9 round event you're basically guaranteed to play it a at least twice.
Banning Entreat basically solves the problem by taking away Miracles' ability to combo-kill the decks that can answer Counterbalance and out grind it, AND you still get a tier 1 UW control deck. Then you have a healthy meta of BGx/Miracles/Delver/D&T/Eldrazi/combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat
What combo decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Miracles is boring to play against, boring to watch. It's frustrating to play against and has draws that make you feel like you never had a chance. It can make you want to throw your deck out of the room and make you rage-quit magic as you ask yourself "why the fuck can't I just be a normal person that has hobbies they enjoy" for the millionth time.
Is Miracles unique in this? No. Every deck with Griselbrand in it is 100% devoid of skill and way too powerful. Storm decks are also super powerful and can beat decks with Force + Spell Pierce, and regularly do... so what chance does the deck not playing 4 Thalia, 3 Ethersworn and Revoker have? DRS is a huge turd and has reshaped the format into either playing it, or playing a deck that can ignore it/blank it.
The format is miserable all around now. Every deck is either derp I win or "let me assemble the best cards and mash them into 60 cards." Nothing is fun, nothing is enjoyable nothing feels like it's worth my time anymore. Miracles isn't the problem, it's just another symptom of what has become a shitty format. Mind, it's still the best format, but that's not saying much is it?
It must be your playgroup... I play in an FNM with all kinds of tier 2 decks from Enchantress to Nic Fit to Goblins and the gameplay is fun every night. Or you could play EDH which is imo the best format in Magic unless you are a competitive player. Anyways, none of the reasons you mentioned are reasons to ban Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
And I agree. I should have made that more clear, but that was my main contention - Miracles is no worse than anything else. If you want to ban that, other shit has to go as well. Griselbrand, LED and DRS are equally miserable.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat
You're never going to solve the B+G problem by removing DRS, all that would really mean is that it would be a little harder to play a fair deck and still have a "good miracles matchup" - i.e. running 4 copies of Abrupt Decay. Never mind the glaring disparity in card selection, and the fact that Decay deck can't side them out (while miracles can side out some CBs) - what is the turn 1 play that replaces DRS? Pretty easy answer: more discard; probably the most truly miserable aspect of game design, both for the opponent early and the player who continues to rip it off the top for zero effect mid/late game. Alternatively the previous DRS user gives up on the Decay plan and moves to blue for Delver, red for Lavamancer (even this is probably a move towards Volcs), or again probably blue with Noble Hierarch. The other option is to go for free wins (non-games) by becoming a Chalice deck like Aggro Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
It's one thing to not like playing against combo which the Grisel/LED ban recommendation suggests, but DRS is at least provides genuinely interactive intersections between combo and fair decks. It's not like combo enjoys playing against fair decks (if you're hyper-linear combo sure, it's a free win); I'm not sure why you'd want to ban the cards that shorten the amount of each others' time we would otherwise waste. Just as you won't get better by say getting stormed out in a no-countermagic deck, neither will the storm pilot get better by wasting hand space on unimaginative removal for let's say, your Thalia or other hatebear - all that does is reduce the diversity of lines of play they will see.
I will run you though a situation then, an example of variance that has nothing to do with MTG:Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Lets play a game. The objective of this game is to be the first person to flip 5 coins heads side up. But in this game, for each one coin you flip, I get to flip two and pick the result I like. Now I have an advantage, a 2 to 1 advantage in this situation but sometimes you will win anyway. It is the nature of the beast. Variance will sometimes just kick me even though I am a favourite to win every time.
No idea how the topic shifted to DRS which is a 1cc planeswalker and super strong, but at least gives decks build around creatures manacceleration and maindeckable combo hate. Thats what "fair" decks needed anyways and only Thalia and DRS have really made the cut. Playing Dredge, Reanimator or ANT against DRS at least promotes interaction which is good for both players experience rather than blowouts
Nice strawman, dood. Pointing at an outclassed killcondition while everyone runs Mentor anywaysQuote:
Originally Posted by btm10