[Deck] The Rock

Here is a new Rock shell I’ve been testing:

4 Elvish Reclaimer
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Plague Engineer
1 Hexdrinker
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Nurturing Peatland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Veil of Summer
2 Choke
1 Assassin’s Trophy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Pithing Needle

Elvish Reclaimer is a great card. It’s the early game aggro power of Nacatl with the midgame value of Knight and the closing speed of Tarmogoyf.

The last league I played was a 4-1 with -1 Ewit/BOP +2 LiliVeil/Hexdrinker but I feel Hexdrinker is fine as a 1-of and I can use the addl mana boost, and I needed some more recursion. Next league will be this build but I’m liking its game across matchups.



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Well, ding dong, the witch is dead. Wa6 is gone, so Dark Confidant is back?

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Well, ding dong, the witch is dead. Wa6 is gone, so Dark Confidant is back?

-Matt

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Indeed he is! I ended up moving my Tarmogoyfs and trading them for dual lands but I don't see them as perfectly necessary anymore. I've been messing around with Death's Shadow a lot lately and I really like the synergy with Dark Confidant. I think the Rock ship has sailed, but I would love to see what people cook up here. At a minimum Elvish Reclaimer and Plague Engineer need to be part of the mix.

As for me, the Rock train will never really leave since the deck is just too much fun :)
During W6 days I ran a list with 4 zenith, 4 kotr, 4 Elvish reclaimer and 4 Goyf and only TS/IoK as discard and without Bobs/Sfm since i just wanted to beat Depths and Rug and it worked well until they printed Oko...

Now W6 is gone, Depths isnt as scary as it was (or at least i dont feel as scared about it anymore) and Oko is the new best walker. So im starting with this list and see where it goes:

8 Fetch
4 Waste
4 Snow Basic
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas

4 Arcums Astrolabe

4 Goyf
4 Bob
3 Plague Engineer
4 Souls

3 Sylvan Library
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

3 Stp
3 Decay
3 TS
2 IoK
3 Hymn

Side:
2 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Gaddock Teeg/Canonist/Containment Priest/Damping Orb
3 Veil of Summer
1 Decay/Swords
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawas Jitte/Zealous Persecution


As you see the sideboard is not really finished yet since the meta is just evolving and the deck isnt really tested aside from some matches yet.
The most interesting maindeck parts are probably 0 SFMs and Astrolabes as well as Sorin.
Sorin is a card I really loved for over a year now since it is so great at beating control even if they have multiple walkers out.
No sfm is because you already play Plague engineer to deal with creature decks and Equips are really bad against Oko. I also expect KCommand to make a great comeback thou...
Astrolabe is just such a great card at mana fixing which I have been missing since the DRS era. Of course its not as good as in blue decks but its still really great for our very sketchy mana base and allows us to run 4 wastes and Basics and even a 1off Karakas main.

Let me know what you think about it.

Took a quick look at spoilers today. With the introduction of Pact Weapon*, this may have another engine to allow it to return to being competitive. It would require some re-tooling and possibly a complete overhaul (first thought was Troll Ascetic as the 3cc creature) and force the Stoneforge Mystic package but, it would allow every creature to turn into a potential threat. It would also allow for additional pushes into the Madness mechanic (Basking Rootwalla & Asylum Visitor?) and a return to classic flashback ideas (Lingering Souls).

Not sure if it'd be enough and I haven't played or optimized in years but, it did give me something to think about.

*tag won't work at time of posting. It's spoiled as...

:3::b:
Equipment
Discard a card to equip
As long as Pact Weapon is attached to a creature, you don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.
Whenever equipped creature attacks, draw a card and reveal it. The creature gets +X/+X until end of turn and you lose X life, where X is that card's mana value.

In what situations do you want this over Dark Confidant, Necromentia or Sorin, The Mirthless?

Needing 4 mana, a creature, and to discard a card seems like a pretty steep cost for the bob effect.

The don’t lose effect seems like it would be too slow against the decks that the effect is useful against (ANT, doomsday)

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

In what situations do you want this over Dark Confidant, Necromentia or Sorin, The Mirthless?

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Dark Confidant - When you're at a low life total or When you have a "harder to"/can't deal with creature on the board. Bob's great but, he's also the creature I remember most regret having 4x in the build. Kept trying to cut him... never could.
Sorin the Mirthless - Anytime you... have a playable SFM in your opener, Don't BB to cast Sorin, have a creatures that you'd rather have be anything else...
Necromentia - Not sure how this applies as a comparison (outside of being 3cc vs 4cc to which I'd say :b::b: vs :1:... Wasteland, Blood Moon, etc). If you could explain the comparison I might be able to expand my thought process on that one.

These are just a couple situations but, comparing situations is situational. The "which one's better" depends on the situation (cards seen from both sides, build of decks, life totals, and much more) and they're constantly changing as the game is played. Someone will need to test a couple builds to see what works and what doesn't. At present, I can only pull from my imagination.

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Needing 4 mana, a creature, and to discard a card seems like a pretty steep cost for the bob effect.

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SFM literally addresses all of those. A 2cc creature that can cheat this into play (now it's :1::w: vs :3::b:) on turn 2/3 depending on your build and adds a card to your hand so the discard breaks you even.

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The don’t lose effect seems like it would be too slow against the decks that the effect is useful against (ANT, doomsday)

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Combo... My thoughts on that.
Is that a solution to Combo?

HECK NO. This deck has traditionally NEVER done well against combo so I don't suggest playing this deck in a combo heavy meta.

Will it allow you to stall long enough to steal a win vs combo?

Possibly... And that's on par or better than this most things the deck has done against combo... but those come post board.

Is it too slow?

Depends on how you build. If you're trying to cast it using 1 land per turn without disrupting/interacting with your opponent... you're not planning to win with this deck in competitive legacy. You should be trying to have your plan active by T3 at the latest.

I'd definitely want this against more than just combo decks. *Glares intensely at Burn as an example*__________________________________(Smash to Smithereens)

Bob: what creatures are you running that are meaningfully more difficult to kill than bob in the 4 plow 4 ending format? Are you thinking thrun?

Sorin: I am not seeing how 1W + 1W plus discard a card is easier than 2BB in a black based deck or more powerful than kaldra. Even Yorion D&T cut SoF&I. If you use SFM to cheat it in she is tapped.

Necromentia was an example of good B dedicated combo hate.

If we are a dedicated souls/SFM deck, what is green offering? The normal answers like dorks or gsz or removal don’t synergize much. Should the deck be BW?


If you don’t care about the combo hate this compares pretty poorly to Sword of Fire & Ice. Attack vs deal damage is relevant, but sofi is removal and relevant protections and won’t accidentally lose you the game. Equip is sorcery speed. Burn can just fireblast the creature once you are at negative life.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Bob: what creatures are you running that are meaningfully more difficult to kill than bob in the 4 plow 4 ending format? Are you thinking thrun?

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I was actually thinking Troll Ascetic. Essentially Thrun, The Last Troll's non-legendary older little sibling. I don't see why not both though. Both are difficult to get off the board and that's what you'd be looking for.

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Sorin: I am not seeing how 1W + 1W plus discard a card is easier than 2BB in a black based deck or more powerful than kaldra. Even Yorion D&T cut SoF&I. If you use SFM to cheat it in she is tapped.

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I agree with thinking it's sub-par when matched on paper alone. I stated a couple theory examples in my previous post. That being said, paper and theory are each only 1 part of process and neither of them should be trusted as a means to invalidate a possibility (example: Tarmogoyf... Wasn't played originally because it's numbers on paper were terrible and turned into a powerhouse). Paper and Theory should only be used to select additional options that you may not have previously considered. Let practice be the executioner.

Also, I'd like to actually address your comparison as cost and end result don't provide an accurate picture. It's two instances of 1W for a creature and an equipment that provides a possible temporary boost in damage/toughness, turns equipped creatures into a psuedo Bob, and provides a pseudo worship effect when equipped. This is all possible earlier than 2BB for Sorin (unless you're playing rituals).
The initial discard's tempo value can be negated as you would have gained a card from SFM (provided a target existed). This also assumes that you aren't discarding something you can use either because it is in your graveyard or because it's been discards. Both of these options offer possibilities of additional tempo.

I'm not knocking Sorin. I haven't played since before it was printed and it looks strong on paper. I am concerned about all 4cc spells that I can't cheat into effect. If I play again, I'd be willing to give it a whirl and see how it did.

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Necromentia was an example of good B dedicated combo hate.

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Ahh! I understand.

Yes. This boils down to which is potentially enough. Against strong pilot, we're typically only buying time with hate. So in most cases, both of these won't be enough on their own. So, why not both? Chances are, you're not running Necromentia main but you likely would be for Pact Weapon (I have a hard time seeing it as a board card). And, if you are running it, you're likely running at least one way to get it out earlier. My old Mox build could equip this on T2 [Mox --> land --> SFM (tutor), Activate Mystic and Equip] and follow-up with Necromentia buying what should in theory be enough time to find either enough piece of hate, or even possibly win.

To give you an idea of how I approached my answers to Combo decks, each piece of hate bought me 1/2 a turn (delay them 1 at the cost of 1/2 on my side). My average winning position turn was 4 where as they could typically end a game on turn 2 or 3 (typically closer to 2). Essentially I needed 3-4 pieces of hate in order to have a fair chance in a match vs a strong pilot.

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If you don’t care about the combo hate this compares pretty poorly to Sword of Fire & Ice. Attack vs deal damage is relevant, but sofi is removal and relevant protections and won’t accidentally lose you the game. Equip is sorcery speed. Burn can just fireblast the creature once you are at negative life.

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I did not state that I didn't care about combo hate. I said "This deck has traditionally NEVER done well against combo" implying a much less that 50% winrate. I also suggested not playing the deck in a meta filled with it since that's a meta that you have a reduced chance of winning. I would suggest the same for Burn a burn meta as I feel it is also a bad matchup.

As for Burn, Getting this on a creature with a low toughness still adds to the requirements to kill that creature if they're planning to win. And, While burn is another bad matchup, the argument of "STILL HAD ALL THESE" shouldn't be enough to stop testing. If it was, I'd say, "Good thing I have it on a Troll. They can't kill." and we could go back and forth with 1-ups until we were blue in the face. The fact remains that it does buy you time and when paired with larger or protected creatures makes it harder for them to win. They either find an answer to the creature. break the equipment. or wait for you to die from milling yourself. Those are the only options for them.

Archetypes shouldn't be followed religiously and as new potential tools come out, you should be flexible to changing the focus. That's how things evolve and new thing tech is found.

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If we are a dedicated souls/SFM deck, what is green offering? The normal answers like dorks or gsz or removal don’t synergize much. Should the deck be BW?

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That's a valid question and the answer depends on the ideas your testing brings you. Dead Guy Ale and Maverick were(are still?) competitive decks. I haven't put anything together so I can't offer you incite into my findings to steer you whichever way I would've gone. I'm just answering questions while offering ideas for people who may be interested in trying to revive this archetype. Be that my old variant, The Rock (Junk), The Rock (Trisomy21), The Rock (Rock Guy) or any of the variants that got captured here while the actual The Rock (Nic Fit) got out and saw additional development and ideas... I'm not bitter :smile:.

Hey team!

After some bills came up X years ago I ended up selling all my Legacy cards to cover the debt. Now that I'm more stable I've decided to get back into MTG. Firstly, the price of Legacy staples now? YIKES! :cry: Secondly, I've decided to make Rock the first deck I want to rebuild. I know the initial page is usually updated but I was wondering if anyone could give me a skeleton list of what an average Rock build is looking like nowadays.

Thanks again! <3

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

Hey team!

After some bills came up X years ago I ended up selling all my Legacy cards to cover the debt. Now that I'm more stable I've decided to get back into MTG. Firstly, the price of Legacy staples now? YIKES! :cry: Secondly, I've decided to make Rock the first deck I want to rebuild. I know the initial page is usually updated but I was wondering if anyone could give me a skeleton list of what an average Rock build is looking like nowadays.

Thanks again! <3

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Hi, good to have you back! Yeah, the prices of especially the Reserved List cards like the duals are absolutely insane. And, I hate to be the bearer of more bad news, but I think this deck is basically dead. Sure, you can play it for fun at your local weekly tournament and get some wins with it, but it's not competitive anymore - combo is faster, blue decks are more consistent and have better threats, and there has been too much power creep in the other colors. If you want to spend the money on a competitive deck, I'd recommend looking at the "decks to beat" section or the results of some recent larger tournaments on mtgtop8 (from what I've heard, results from MTGO are not a good source of decks, as there is much more combo and decks preying on combo than in paper Magic).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

Hey team!

After some bills came up X years ago I ended up selling all my Legacy cards to cover the debt. Now that I'm more stable I've decided to get back into MTG. Firstly, the price of Legacy staples now? YIKES! :cry: Secondly, I've decided to make Rock the first deck I want to rebuild. I know the initial page is usually updated but I was wondering if anyone could give me a skeleton list of what an average Rock build is looking like nowadays.

Thanks again! <3

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A general Skeleton... You're in for a slog... Depends on your build. You can go for different packages dependent on what your meta is looking like. the two I prefer are Stoneforge and Green Sun's Zenith. There are a lot of packages (Knight Lands, Natural Order, etc) but those require more time than I have right now. Either way, Good luck. I hope you can get this working again.

Base Skeleton

4 Dark Confidant.
0-4 Small threat/utility Creatures
0-4 Large Threats

4 Thoughtseize
0-2 Other Discard

4-7 Removal Spells

0-3 Liliana of the Veil
0-3 Liliana, The Last Hope
0-2 Sorrin

21-23 Lands

Stoneforge Package
3-4 Stoneforge Mystic
0-1 Umezawa's Jitte
0-2 Sword of X/Y
0-1 BatterSkull
0-1 Pact Weapon (My suggestion )

Green Sun's Zenith Package
2-4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
0-2 1cc Green Creatures (Typically an Accelerant but go wild)
1-3 2cc Green Creatures (Utility or beater... both?)
1-3 3cc Green Creatures (Typically Wincon)
0-1 4cc Green Creature (Must Win)

Also, the link in my signature goes to my old Rock Google dock if you want to check out other lists my mind tinkered with Last one updated when pact weapon was in speculation. Hope they help. Feel free to reach out if you have questions on any of it.

Ok. Finally got a chance to check out spoilers... I think we got something that allows us to get back into the game as a competitive option, Wrenn and Realmbreaker. The deck will still lack what Top gave it, but this might allow for an alternative method to similar results.
What're other people's thoughts on the card? (Are people still here?) Theoretical starting point for an example...


1 Gilded Goose
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Troll Ascetic

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Wrenn and Realmbreaker

3 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pact Weapon
1 Batterskull

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Nurturing Peatland
1 Castle Locthwain
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Reasonings

-- On Wrenn --

1. Why do you think Wrenn is good?
   
   The card looks good. Defends itself, gains card advantage from your deck, Gives you a strong pool to use when dealing with it's emblem.
2. Why only 3?
   
   I'd T1 this one. So 3 seems fine enough. Plus you need the mana...

-- Goose > Birds --

While goose is not useful EVERY turn, it can replenish it's food token and provides something to do with not only extra mana but also provides a way to gain life outside off Jitte and Batterskull (both of these have difficulty some games. If you get a Wrenn Emblem, you can loop the goose as :g::2:+1 Jitte token: Gain 3 life

-- Sticking Packages --

• GSZ Package - Acceloration and adaptability are huge.
• Knight - I was looking at other creatures that could hold a piece of equipment and not die to everything in the format. Right know I have Castle in but that may be better served by being a Bojuka Bog.
• SFM - Searching the Pact Weapon is huge. Being able to negate the card loss form the first equip is also huge. The advantage after if you get to swing is nice but the ability to give yourself a chance at having a game 1 vs combo and burn is priceless.

-- Why not Thrunn? --

Thrun, the Last Troll was an option for the last Zenith slot. It does everyhting that its little brother does but it also can't be countered. I figured, that if we're that deep into the game, I've likely gotten an emblem token and am capable of surviving a couple of turns to recast acetic and getting it equipped

Seen Issues

-- Manabase --

It's a first draft. I haven't even looked at it from the previous decklist I had theorized. Likely too many pay life lands (I know there's a cool new term for these but I've been gone too long). Off the top, I would probably lower the count of collorless lands as well. The deck could use another green source in there so maybe switch the dual land counts as well... I'll give it some thought and see what I can do with it to make it more consistent.

-- Anything with CC>3 --

I had started with another idea to use thinks like shriekmaw in place of lingering souls and play harder into the Wrenn than the Pact Weapon but Wrenn seems way too strong to not play harder into than an equipment.

Conclusion

if there's anyone brave enough to pick up the card and give it a go, I would love feedback and suggestions.

Now that my kids are older and don't require SOOO much attention, I'm trying to play more. I've had a couple thoughts different ideas around for the cards I've seen and the meta I've been getting back into.

Is it worth it to go after people's manabases?

With cards like Assassin's Trophy and White Orchid Phantom alongside Wasteland, we have access to a lot of disruption to manabases. While the format has been becoming more efficient with it's mana requirements, they've also reduced the number of functional lands. Being able to remove 2-3 lands may be enough to entirely cut an opponent off from the game. Additionally, some decks are designed in a way that they don't have any basics to be able to fetch. This makes it each of the spells essentially turn into Sinkhole.

Is Orcish Bowmasters a trap?

I get that it's amazing against a lot of the blue decks but, I have to ask, "Is it really worth it?" We played Goyf before which was a strong creature that could become a large threat faster than most and Bowmaster falls in that realm but, I hated Goyf? All it was, was a dies to removal creature. While This has some utility, that's pretty much all it is as well. Granted, it can be used as removal but, I feel like most decks don't play x/1's anymore. So what exactly does it do? Maybe if we played something to force our opponent to draw (i.e. Mikokoro, Center of the Sea) it might do more but... Am I going crazy thinking this?

Will things function properly with 3 mox and 22 lands?

I haven't tested this but, I'm interested to know if anyone else has/did. Does it still function as intended? Do the Mox Diamond still ramp you our regularly or should we look to switching to something like Chrome Mox?

This being said, I'm hoping to find some time to test all of these and see how things turn out. I've also been testing a build without the Stoneforge Mystic and I'm not sure that I like it more or less than with it. I also don't even know if anyone knows what this deck is anymore since I played online and had someone who's been in magic for a while tell me it was an "Interesting Deck" (I punted the match due to being out practice). I mean, heck, I had to go lookup my oldest post to find this thread so we'll see if it appears somewhere that can even get a response... :cry:

Love to see people still playing this old classic in 2025.

Mana denial seems effective. Both White Orchid Phantom and Trophy are strong cards. You'll run them out of basics quickly, and Trophy can easily pivot to target other problems.

Opposition Agent should help. You can steal a land & shut off future basic searches. Agent also shuts off fetchlands, so they will struggle to rebuild mana after you kill 1-2 lands.

SB Surgical Extraction on a killed land can double down on the plan in some matchups.

The main risk is that the new tempo decks and combo decks get on board fast (why they're reducing land counts). 2 cmc LD isn't always fast enough. Sinkhole isn't playable. If you survive to the late game then your LD plan will take over, but you need to survive first. Early interaction will be key. 4 Thoughtseize + 4 StP + Trophy should help, but you may need nore.

Bowmasters is good (2 bodies so you trade up vs removal). But not as good as when it was first released, as other decks have altered their threats and lines around it.

Confidant is too weak for the format now. Consider other card engines. Esper Sentinel adds to the mana denial angle. Barrowgoyf is good: Goyf + Confidant + Lifelink. Sylvan Library is decent. The One Ring is the format's default card draw, if you can afford to wait till 4 mana. Staff of the Storyteller was good 1 year ago with Bowmaster, but may be outclassed now.

If you play Stoneforge at all, you want Kaldra Compleat and maybe Pre-War Formalwear. But there may not be room for it - you flood on 2s fast. Or you could try to be an 80-card Yorion deck, like D&T.

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Is it worth it to go after people's manabases?

With cards like Assassin's Trophy and White Orchid Phantom alongside Wasteland, we have access to a lot of disruption to manabases. While the format has been becoming more efficient with it's mana requirements, they've also reduced the number of functional lands. Being able to remove 2-3 lands may be enough to entirely cut an opponent off from the game. Additionally, some decks are designed in a way that they don't have any basics to be able to fetch. This makes it each of the spells essentially turn into Sinkhole.

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I've been playing a deck centered around White Orchid Phantom, Birthing Ritual, Wight of the Reliquary, Bowmasters, Renegade Rallier, and Ghost Quarter in Timeless. It's a lot of fun. The mana bases are pretty similar in Timeless as compared to Legacy i.e. most decks are running 0-3 basics. In such situations, you can completely cut them off colors early on and get the win.

Every time I play this deck I wish I had access to Wasteland, Mox Diamond, Life From the Loam, etc.. In other words, I'm fairly positive you can port this over to Legacy to be much more powerful.

The only cards you miss out on in Legacy are Juggernaut Peddler (busted Alchemy card) and Deathrite Shaman. An example of the extreme mana denial lines this concoction can produce with Legacy cards added:

T1: Land, Mox, Phantom (destroy land)
T2: Wasteland (destroy land), Birthing Ritual, Ritual Phantom into Rallier, buy back Wasteland (destroy land)

A Legacy version of this deck can also slot in the Dark Depths combo very easily since it is already playing Wight to tutor the cards.