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Massacre performs the same function against those creatures and is free to play under that same condition. Generally you would want to play Badlands or Underground sea naturally to take advantage of it. I guess it depends on how badly the white weenies effect your metagame.
Massacre doesn't kill Gaddock Teeg though.
I think Jamie Parke's list (U/B) was very interesting with no LED and no Infernal Tutors. He managed just to lose 3 matches through the 2 days of the Grand Prix. I think maybe consistency is better than overral speed of the deck for future tournaments.
What do you guys think?
Where can i find this list? This is how i been boarding recently vs counterbalance based decks. Im boarding in 4 pact of negations, 1 Krosan grip, 4 Dark confidant and taking out 4 led, 4 infernal tutor, and 1 ponder. If the list is solid it may just be better since most of my meta is counterbalance based decks
hereQuote:
Originally Posted by e_hawk77
ANT
Jamie Parke
Grand Prix-Chicago
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
2 tendrils of agony
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 duress
3 pact of negation
1 wipe away
4 lotus petal
2 ad nauseam
4 mystical tutor
1 ill-gotten gains
4 chrome mox
1 chain of vapor
1 sensei’s divining top
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 underground sea
3 island
2 swamp
Sideboard
4 dark confidant
2 annul
4 leyline of the void
1 rebuild
1 wipe away
2 hydroblast
1 pact of negation
I've been extremely unimpressed by Dark Confidant in Legacy storm combo. Not only does he not solve the problem that is Counterbalance but blue based control is also often stuck with removal in its maindeck in games 2/3 anyway (Didn't emidln sum this up somewhere?).
I fail to see how removing LED improves consistency. Chrome Mox is still terrible acceleration at anytime prior to casting Ad Nauseam and Cabal Ritual is still hit by Spell Snare and sucks unless you have threshold. I prefer not to make my opponent's Dazes and Cursecatchers relevant.
The only time I had moderate success with Pact of Negation was when I had a large number of answers to Counterbalance too. Even then the card was questionable and often cut down to 1-2 copies, at best. Hard counters were never a problem, Counterbalance was/is, and Pact clearly does not solve that problem.
Without Infernal Tutors, how do you plan on reaching a sufficient storm count? Totally relying on Ad Nauseam seems like a very poor plan against blue based aggro/control. I suppose setting up double Tendrils is possible, or baiting the opponent into a counter-war with Pacts, but again, neither of these address Counterbalance very well.
If you're going to try the "all-in" approach, I suggest sticking to something that resembles BC's list or a TES varient. Try to knife-out hard counters and/or Counterbalance with discard/chant effects and quickly resolve Ad Nauseam -- win before the blue control player has time to cantrip/draw into multiple pieces of disruption.
apparently 4 spell snares in the board is whats up consider all the hate for this deck comes in terms of 2 drop:
thorn of amethyst
gaddock teeg
ethersworn canonist
counterbalance
null rod (lol)
The deck has amazing protection to get ad nauseum to resolve and then you just win. I can't find too many faults with the list as its probably the best list I've seen when you have to deal with blue decks and counterbalances all day.
Maybe the LED's and Infernal Tutors are "win-more" cards that don't need to be played in ANT. It's hard to protect Ad Nauseum with counters when you have to discard your hand to LED.
LED is amazing against decks that don't run blue, anything else I rather not see them in my hand. It's also hard to use LED against blue when your not running white for chant main deck.
It's not an unrealistic approach to the Balance/Top match up, I use to board out 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 Lion's Eye Diamond for 4 Pyro and Red Elemental Blasts in TES with mixed results. Personally, I came to the conclusion it was simply better to SB in Empty the Warrens and Vexing Shusher, but considering both of those cards suck in ANT the 8 Blast plan seems pretty reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Hell, even MDing 8 Blasts seems reasonable if Ad Nauseam is enough to push the deck past Goblins. Modeling the deck in the vein of a Combo-Control deck where the control comes from the red blasts vs Standstill/Threshold and the combo invalidates the aggro match up is definitely worth testing IMO.
I'm Glad ANT got moved up to the DtB fourms.
Anyhow, I took 49th at the GP with Ad Storm, a total record of 11-4. here is the list I used....
AnT:
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamnd
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
1 Rushing River
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Louts Petal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Ad Nausium
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
SB:
1 Infernal tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
2 Pact of Negation
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mana Short
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
1 Wipe Away
1 Angel's Grace
1 Hurkul's recall
I was originally going to run the Dark confidant package, but I have no Confidants, however, after the GP, I feel that Confidant is not worth it. Also, the Wipe away should become a Tendrils of Agony.
Rounds and wins/losses:
1: Landstill (Bad) W 2-0 (Chain of Vapors helped providing this win)
2: Bwg Aggro control (Brian Kowal's decklist) L 0-2 Awful matchup, too much discard!
3: Bad GW: W: 2-0
4: Aggro Loam: W 2-1 (He had 3 chalices game 2)
5: Aggro Loam: W 2-0
6: An Aggro Deck (I honestly forgot, no islands, though!) W 2-0
7: Zoo: L 1-2, I could have mini comboed, but I would of -loved- the second tendrils in this match-up. That would have won it for me as well.
8: (Red based) Mirror: Win 2-1
9: Wub Weenie (Dick of a player), W 2-0, and glad to knock this guy out of contention.
Day 2:
10: Zoo: Win 2-0
11: Mirror w/ White: Win 2-0
12: (VS Tommy Kolowith) Loss 0-2. I could have won game 2, due to Orim's Chant and PoN superiority, but I played into one of his two orim's chants, when I had plenty of mana after an Ad Nausium to duress him, forcing him to play the Chant In response, then I would have had double chant double LED Infernal Tutor and 2 other cards, with the white mana to play Chant if need be next turn. Bad play mistake.
13: Goblins: Win 2-1
14: Team America: (eek!) Lose 0-2. I could have won both games I would have ever Duressed the stifle instead of Force of Will. The deck is winnable, I just should have paid more attention.
15: Dreadstill: Win 2-0 I win game 1 because he forgets to put two cards back with brainstorm and proceeds to shuffle library and some other stuff. Game 2 he mulls to six and I just own him.
Notes on playing the deck: The Sideboard is nearly perfect, And I had to fill in four slots. I love the siding in of the Trop and 3 Krosan Grip against half the field. The fact that a lot of decks were running Pyrostatic pillar and Crypts against me made it really worth it. I think that the main deck is -perfect-. Let me reiterate this point. The main deck is perfect, don't screw it up. You have to sideboard intelligently as well, understand that VS non-blue, you really change the deck to play much more like Iggy Pop, I usually sided out one Ad Nausium and a ponder to bring in the Infernal Tutor and Ill gotten Gains. If I could change anything, it would be perhaps the Mana Short and wipe away for +1 Tendrils and +1 Pact of Negation.
Edit: Note on the main deck being perfect. The Rushing river can become a Wipe away, I just hate losing to Stax and Dragon stompy.
Double Edit: My first major tournament in a year and a half.
Triple Edit: Gah, My SB is off!
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24190
another LEDless version placing first in a 70 person tournament.
Looks like he relied heavily on AN with Angels Grace out of the board.
The City of Traitors seem odd, they can only be used to cast Ad Nauseam/Tendrils/Top/pay for PoN (I suppose). It's not the first list I've seen running them though. Has anyone here actually tested City of Traitors? I guess it is kinda nice to be able to play Top and spin it off the same land.
I posted it on #756.
Same League on febrary tournament won the same deck, ANT; LEDless and with 2 City of traitors from the same team
Last night I took ANT to my local tournament and made it to the top 4 split out of 22 people. The list is unchanged since last time except a few tweaks to the SB:
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Duress
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Brainstorm
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Ponder
3x Orim's Chant
3x Cabal Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x IGG
1x Wipe Away
1x Krosan Grip
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
Sideboard
4x Serenity
3x Xantid Swarm
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Krosan Grip
1x Plains
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Tempest of Light
1x Brain Freeze
Short tournament report:
round 1 - R/G/w Zoo
g1: I drop down to 15 life and combo off on turn 2, revealed a fucking Ad Nauseam but LED, LED, Ritual, Petal, IT get it done!
g2: Basically the same except I was at 18 life. Slaughter Pact kills Teeg and then rifle though literally 25 cards and Mystical for Tendrils and Brainstorm into it!
round 2 - 8 Post (fucking cool as hell deck!!!!)
g1: Easily combo off on turn 3 with 19 life!
g2: Mull to 6 and keep a hand of land, Ponder, Brainstorm, double Ritual, Petal. Ponder and Brainstorm leave me stranded and I am in topdeck mode!!! The deck just broke down and all I could draw was fucking lands and Petals and Rituals!!! I get in a Spellburst lock and lose on turn 15 :( Nothing I could do :(
g3: Easily win on turn 5 after a mull to 6 and slow setup, playing around Spellburst as he played a shock land on turn 1 untapped without anything else! I Chant him and AdN into the win!
round 3 - Counterbalance Thresh garbage with Shackles (kabal)
g1: It is just sad times. I Mystical into Krosan Grip early on and just can't draw my third land. He lands CB on turn 3 and Top turn 4 and the deck just isn't being nice to me :( I actually got to a point where I could Chant and Duress, IGG, leave a shit ton of mana floating and hope to Brainstorm and Ponder into something relevant, but I knew he was floating a 3 drop on top and after he dropped a second CB there was nothing I could do, I just threw the Grip away to confirm my suspicions about the top card of his deck and went to the next game.
g2: Just more sad times. Can't believe the deck was this unkind to me. I keep my opening 7 which had Swarm, land, land, Brainstorm, Ritual, LED, and something else. A solid hand. Again he gets double CB into play .... and I can't draw into fucking anything besides more ritual effects.
round 4 - R/G/w Zoo (Loxodon Baileyarch)
g1: I'm already pissed I have to play another one of my buddies, and even more pissed he is playing a deck I really like! I joke about just comboing off on turn 1 and mull to 6 on the draw and see: land, Mystical Tutor, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Ad Nauseam!!!! Halfway through the AdN he scoops em up as he saw it was over.
g2: Damnit, it happens again!!! The deck leaves me stalled on mana!!! I have a beautiful turn 3 IGG loop in my hand and watch Bailey drop Null Rod!!!! I EOT Mystical for Wipe Away and then Brainstorm during my turn to try and find a third land. Next turn I Ponder and shuffle then Brainstorm again!!! I looked at a total of 12 cards off the top of my library and never hit my 3rd land .... it happens but it always fucking sucks!
g3: Opening hand: Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Ad Nauseam, land, Brainstorm ..... KEEP. I win on turn 1 again and just to kind of rub it in I Mystical for IGG and Brainstorm into it then Infernal, for Infernal, for the third Infernal and finally fetch Tendrils with storm at around 18ish! Win is a win but I still feel bad since he got the worst matchup (I was one of 2 combo decks out of 22 people) he could possibly have gotten.
Top 8
round 5 - U/G/b Survival with Daze and FoW
g1: Duress takes Force on turn 1 and I easily setup for the kill on turn 4 and AdN into the win!
g2: He plays a turn 1 Overgrown Tomb and I smile since I stare at the Swarm in my hand and know it can't be Dazed! I drop Swarm on turn 1 and he laughs (he and I talked about this card a while ago in random decks as protection from counters). It resolves and I begin to setup for the win. Duress on turn 2 takes Deed (whew) and I Ponder into garbage. Then I Brainstorm into garbage!!!!! We are both in topdeck mode and his hand is full of counters and mine is: Cabal, Dark, Dark, IGG, LED. I drew a shit ton of lands in a row. I draw into Tendrils of Agony and attack with Swarm, play LED, Cabal, Dark, Dark, and Tendrils for 10 with 4 black floating. Cast IGG and blow up LED for 3 black, bring back Tendrils, LED, Ritual, and Tendrils for the win! After the game was over he showed me his hand: Fow, Fow, Daze, Daze, Daze!!!! Go Swarm!!!!!!
I am still just loving this list. I still don't really like Ad Nauseam since it kind of takes storm combo from the realm of serious playskill and turn it into something that feels like Belcher. What I mean by this is that anyone can count to 7 and play Belcher (look at your opening hand and ask "can I win"?), same with Ad Nauseam, anyone can draw 1/4 of their fucking deck and play 10 spells to win the game. I am not saying this deck is easy to play correctly because it isn't, but it just doesn't feel like true storm combo. I love playing TES so much more (I win VIA AdN when playing TES maytbe 1/5-6 times) but why would I play TES when this list is 100 times more consistent, mulligans so much better, doesn't lose to multiple Wastelands, fairly immune to hand destruction, and has maindeck and SB answers for CB! Being a combo player I like challenging and complex plays (probably why I like playing the blue match since I have to think critically about nearly everything) but playing ritual, ritual, spell, draw half deck, win ... feels like I am cheating storm combo. But, either way, the deck is just so fucking good it is hard to find a reason to not keep playing it! The only matchup you really don't want is Stax but still have multiple answers in the SB!!!
Something else I want to address, why is everyone going nuts over the lists without LED and without IT???? Against burn I make a conscious effort to mull and setup for the IGG loop. I have been bolted, bolted, and Fireblasted at 10 life (on turn 2) while playing SI. Choosing to rely solely on AdN for the win seems terrible. If you get off to a somewhat slow start and get a decent-bad AdN at 14ish life it will be some sad times! Even with double Tendrils. Play a bunch of shit, Tendrils for 16, then AdN again next turn and try it again. But I really just don't like the idea of basing the deck around 1 card. Thats why I love IT, allows alternate wins with little life!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
The list is a lot better without LED if your expecting to run into blue decks all day long. Your matchup against aggro is very good anyways, why waste a slot making that matchup better when you should focus on how to beat the blue decks better.
Relying on An Naueum to win isn't a bad idea when you have mutliple effects to search for the card and protect it. You cast An Nauseum and you win the game, its that simple.
Play test both versions and you will see what I'm talking about.
Think hatred.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
Swamp, Traitors, ritual - Ad Nauseum
With that quote, when is it EVER good to play with LED?Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
And these new spanish lists with city of traitors and no LED, is mox diamond necessary post-nauseum? Cause i dont think its good before it with only 14 land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercc
I just realized, in the current metagame I don't know why people would play LED in combo with all the blue decks running around. If you really want to play LED then you have to splash a third color to add chant b/c without it you can't reliably go off against control decks.
Think about this, what matchups does LED improve? What matchups do you want to improve?
The answers, LED helps with the aggro decks (non-blue). The matchups you want to improve are against the blue decks. Why not give up a little in your non-blue matchups to improve your worse matchup.
The goal to winning a major tournament is the ability to consistency beating blue decks and thats why Parke's version has been the best one I've seen so far that incorporates this strategy.
LED also make cantrips/Top/Mystical/ID/IGG better. (Doomsday goes without saying).
I'm not arguing against LED or for LED here, just saying that LED gives a deck more than just speed.
I also enjoy the relative ease with which ID/LED gets you Tendrils post-Nauseam (rather than needing UU which you can't produce with Rituals and Mystical as well as a cantrip - you need 2UUBB to win via Mystical/cantrip->Tendrils, as opposed to 2B with ID/LED->Tendrils).
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Lol, Dark ritual doesn't improve a matchup either.
They just make the deck.