oh yea i guess your right. but you also can take out key cards like ad nauseum or dark ritual. but yes i agree with you that i would have a hard time winning that battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
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oh yea i guess your right. but you also can take out key cards like ad nauseum or dark ritual. but yes i agree with you that i would have a hard time winning that battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerForHire
hi,
this forum is blocked from my work so i don't post here much, but i used to play counterslivers for a long time, then swithched over to eva green for a long time. now based on my meta i think TA might actualy be the right plan. i've never actualy played TA before, but i'm a decent player and think i know the game plan/how to play it pretty well.
so anyway, i just want some constructive critisism for what i'll be playing this week. please tell me both good and bad, what you think. i'm especilay concerned with no basic lands in anyones deck lists.. my meta is chop full of wastelands, and i think it more appropriate to fetch out a basic so i don't have to save my stifles to protect my duals.
4 goyfs
3 tombstalkers
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 fow
4 daze
4 stifle
3 spell peirce
2 spell snare
2 thoughtseize
4 sink hole
3 snuff out
1 smother
4 wastes
4 deltas
2 catacombs
2 mistys
3 undergrounds
1 trop
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
2 k.grips
2 Bob's
2 tormods crypts
2 E.E.
2 annul
2 edicts
3 REB's
also, does anyone think word of command (beta) might be useful in this deck?
Stifling an opponent's Wasteland nets you the same tempo as Stifling their fetchland. In both cases they're down a mana source and you're not. The basics seem like they limit one's lines of play and could negatively effect your game plan if you don't draw into the right lands to complement them.Quote:
Originally Posted by popeye79
Is there a reason for splitting the 1cc disruption up between proactive and reactive? AKA: Thoughtseize vs Spell Snare/Pierce? It seems like Thoughtseize would just be better since it gives you the information of what's in their hand and can remove opposing Creatures.
thoughtseize is never going to be the optimal turn one play though. you'd much rather be stifling, piercing, pondering, bluffing, or possibly even snaring.
thoughtseize should really be used later to clear the way for your own creature. while early info is good, you can usualy get the same info from reading your opp. in the beginning you're trying to gain tempo, not take their win con or removal for a creature you're not going to drop for several turns.
and spell pierce is simply amazing in this deck.. i'd almost want to bump it to 4, but that would be over kill and clog up your hand against stuff like goblins or zoo. combined with all the LD we pack, pierce is just amazing for this deck.
edit..
also, i was thinking about taking out a single ponder or brainstorm for the 4th tombstalker. comments? is 3 stalker enough (don't want him cloging early hand). if i remove a cantrip, which would it be? ponder lets you shuffle w/o a fetch if need be. but brainstorm is so great. ???
what about playing Massacre in this deck?
Against? It only kills Qasali Pridemage and Grim Lavamancer against Zoo. Meddling Mage and Teeg aren't really issues for this deck are they? In a pinch, maybe you could kill Elspeth's Soldier Tokens or Decree of Justice Soldier Tokens :P If your meta happens to have Kithkin or Soldiers, I guess. But I don't see the point in Massacre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanabo
Why play Extirpate? That's an honest question. In my experiences, it's kind of sucked. If you're talking vs combo, I'd think that the tempo package already in the deck is enough...Force, Daze, Stifle, Wasteland, and Thoughtseize. If you play Spell Pierce, that's extra hate. Toss in the quick clock of a Goyf or Stalker and you're set. So why play Extirpate?
yeah i am changing around my sb and took out the extirpates. but massacre could also kill a uw merfolk deck. also, is 2 crypts enough to fight ichorid?Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
These are the cards you really should be running 4 of as they make the core of the deck:
tombstalker
goyf
fow
daze
stifle
brainstorm
ponder
thoughtseize
All these cards are integral to the decks gameplan. Thoughtseize on turn 1 has been really good for me every time I've done it, it allows you to sculpt your gameplan and disrupt theirs. The spots to mess with are the sinkholes and snuff outs. The creator of the deck has said that sinkhole is the worst card but there just isn't anything better. Snuff outs are great in some matchups and useless in others, but the point is you usually dont need one early unless they resolve a goblin lackey. I've been playing with 3 of each and added 2 trygon predators as additional threats, but there may be something better as this was a while ago. I recommend any card you add to the main be blue, as the more cards you have the option to pitch to FOW the better. I have hated spell snare every time I've tried it, it's just been too conditional, I'd rather have mana leak or counterspell. Brainstorm is the best card in the entire format, and combined with fetchlands allows you to negate the disadvantage of having a tombstalker early (just shuffle it away if it's not useful). However even if you do have a tombstalker early, you can end up playing him very quickly and I've rarely been sad to have multiple tombstalkers, as they are incredibly hard to deal with in this format.
The reason to play basics isn't for wasteland so much as it is for blood moon effects. The problem is, your threats cost G and BB, so you'd need to run 2 swamps and a forest, all of which are seriously bad to fetch up early since they limit your ability to play blue spells. But it is annoying to straight up lose if they resolve blood moon so it may be worth it. The printing of misty rainforest actually makes running a single forest a viable option, which it wasn't before since you couldn't fetch it.
Massacre isn't worth it in the main, and even in the board it seems like deed or EE would be better options. 2 Crypt is not enough to fight dredge. Even 3 is pushing it.
Extirpate is bad, for so many reasons. Playing it against tendrils decks is pointless, you should already have a good matchup against them, but if you want a card, hymn to tourach really bones them.
Hope this helps, let us know how you do in this upcoming tournament, I am curious if this deck is still viable.
You could play a Forest in the SB along with Grips so you have an out against resolved Blood Moon, but maindeck is too awkward IMO.
so what would be a good sb that i can take to any event?
I gave it a try this past sunday and played some kind of mix between TT and TA which looked like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by kikkofrio
// Lands
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
even though I ended up 3-3 I would not change a single thing maindeck. SB was Ichorid Hate all alone since about 10 ppl out of 33 were playing Dredge... unfortunately I never got paired against them. Extirpate was MVP all day long, espacially against Tempo Thresh (Extirpate Tropical turn2, gg).
I crushed Tempo Thresh, and had a really close game against Balanced Bant by srewing him off white with Extirpate. Merfolk lost to Plague with all my LD going for Mutavault.
I lost to MonoR Burn due to 1 land in 12 Turns (g1) and mull to 4 with 2 Wasteland game2. Both other losses were made by myself just screwing it all up (letting choke resolve, tapping out with 2xSpell Pierce on hand against ANT).
Next time I would build a SB like this:
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Infest
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
I strongly recommend testing this Tempo version since it is quite versatile and hell of fun to play! I only missed the hand destruction against ANT so I chose a harder counter base. Spell Pierce is just amazing with 12 LD effects.
i disagree about thoughtseize being an auto 4 of. turn 1 seize is not the optimal play.. 2 was just right for me, as i like to save them to push through a threat, and save the early turns for land disruption, counters and tempo.
i played my list above to a second place finish (small thourny, but mostly great players) only loosinging to canadian threash.. but it was a real battle. back and forth so many times, freaking mongoose went all the way in the end.
spell pierce was simply amazing, and just what this deck needed. but in order to be effective- DO NOT take the sinkholes out.
spell snares were less than impressive.
i'm going to go -2 spell snare, -1 smother, +2 edict, +1 tombstalker (it was stupid of me to take one out, and i need the edicts to take care of mongoose).
also, the two basics worked well for me.
Has the universal list (list on first post of this thread) changed since this thread was created? it seems like this deck never gets updated...
That's because it sprang fully-formed and perfect from David Gearhart's forehead, and you don't mess with perfection. Also because they seldom print new cards that can vie in efficiency with the ones already in it. It did recently gain axis-colored fetchlands, and Spell Pierce probably has a place at least in the sideboard if not the maindeck.
so do you think the list could be updated soon?
and which is a better to have as a 3 of instead of a 2 of in sb: kgrip or deed?
sorry to double post...but can anyone please answer my question above? its been 8 days since i asked it...
If you want the list to be updated, the best thing you can do is try yourself...
I played the list in the OP with 1 Snuff Out less for a Vendillion Clique and Zendikar fetches( so I could fetch all lands with all fetches.) The best bet is to start with the OP-list and work from there. If you make some changes to that list you like, you can post it here and we can comment on it. This sounds lazy, but with this deck it's probably the only way.
As for SB, play 3 Krosan Grip, 3 Pernious Deeds is to manahungry, unless you play in a meta infested with Enchantress or something.
Good luck.
- Benie
T16 tourney report at SCG 5K St. Louis.
So yeah I played the deck at the 5k and got 12th. I'm not sure whether I should have been higher or lower, since I punted a match but at least two of the people I beat also did.
Here's the list I ran:
4 wasteland
9 UBG fetches
4 underground sea
2 trop island
1 bayou
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 goyf
4 tombstalker
4 daze
4 FOW
4 stifle
4 thoughtseize
3 snuff out
1 smother
3 spell pierce
1 reanimate
SB:
2 infest
1 engineered explosives
1 smother
3 krosan grip
3 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
2 blue elemental blast
2 hydroblast
The split on hydroblasts and bebs is pretty pointless now, it used to be for goblins with cabal therapy. Split on trap/crypt is for dredge, since crypt is better but keeping them guessing is always good. I ran the reanimate main because looking around before the tourney I saw all kinds of different decks, many with tarmogoyf, and it is good in such a field. If not main I'd definitely want 1 in the board, unless I added other creatures like trygon predator or bob, both of which are ok in some matchups. I played the infests because I was expecting a lot of merfolk and ee was too slow against them in the few games I tested. I don't know if it's actually good, or if it's even worth the slots in the board. I was also expecting a lot of zoo, hence the extra smother and EE. I ended up not playing either one on the day. Spell pierce replaced sinkhole. It was very good, I am pretty sure it was better than sinkhole overall. Fitting both in might be nice but I am not sure how.
R1: BGW Rock
G1: I stifle his mana sources and land a fattie. He dies with a vindicate in his hand and an unmorphed exalted angel.
G2: He is able to cast most of his spells this game, which is bad for me. I manage to trade tombstalkers which is good for me because I have no other way to get rid of his and I'm behind in life. He topdecks vindicate for my goyf though and kills me.
G3: I fetch, thoughtseize him turn 1 and take tombstalker. I reanimate tombstalker turn 2 (That puts me at 9 on turn 2 for those keeping track :D). I FOW a swords and proceed to draw lands. He hymns me when I have 2 cards and gets two lands. The next turn he casts vindicate but I have drawn the daze like a champ and tombstalker kills him.
R2: GBU counterbalancetop
G1: We wasteland each others mana sources, and I have some stifles, but he has island-top. He can't shuffle his library though and he isn't getting more lands. I land a goyf and it gets there.
G2: See game 1, but with tombstalker. He lands a bob but I have the smother and it resolves. He has two lands towards the end and I know he has smother in his hand, I have the choice between playing a second tombstalker or reanimate on bob and play a goyf when he's at 7 life. I choose to play the tombstalker since I want another threat that won't get killed, if he has two removals he could kill goyf and bob. He fails to draw a land, but shows me maelstrom pulse that would have killed both my tombstalkers. Whoops! Noted for future reference.
R3: Burn!
G1: I stifle a rift bolt, but I don't land a goyf for a few turns, so his burn has me way behind. An ankh of mishra prevents me from playing more than two lands, but I basically just die to not having enough hard counters for all his fire.
G2: I stifle a rift bolt again and land a goyf (or maybe it was tombstalker) earlier this time. I draw some BEBs and counter his magma jets, which proves to be key because he was stuck on two lands and holding ensnaring bridge.
G3: I boarded out thoughtseize for game 2 but I decide I should bring it back for game 3 since I feel it will save me damage and making him pay mana for the burn won't be as relevant since he's on the play and will have plenty of time to do so. I get a goyf and start racing but I am pretty far behind and it's only attacking for 3. My hand is stacked with pierce, brainstorm, fow, daze, ponder, fow and a land. I have the option of pondering or brainstorming but there's not much better I can hope to get, and I can't really afford to tap out for another threat. Fortunately I am drawing really well and draw BEB, hydroblast to counter two price of progress. When he's at 8, he goes for it, he magma jets and I force, he floats 2 and fireblasts, I force that and have the choice of pitching brainstorm or daze. For brainstorm to be good I'd have to draw another FOW and another blue spell, I have no mana for pierce or beb to be played, so I pitch brainstorm. He tries to fork (!!!) with his last two and I daze it. I play wasteland so that POP will deal me 0 if he draws it and win a few turns later with goyf. If he'd waited 1 more turn, the extra land would have let him pay for daze and maybe kill me with another burn spell. Very close.
R4: White stax
G1: It gets to a point where I've got him to 4 but I keep drawing extra creatures instead of disruption. He plays out his second ghostly prison and has geddon in hand. I know I'm dead if he plays it so I think about scooping but I might as well wait till he actually does. Instead he plays baneslayer angel. This would be good enough to stop my attack if I didn't have snuff out. I pay 4 life then pay 4 mana to attack and kill him.
G2: He gets turn 1 chalice for 1 off a city of traitors, crippling my hand. I have grips in my deck but don't draw one. I burn brainstorms to be able to play a tombstalker but it's not quick enough and he locks me out.
G3: I thoughtseize him and see geddon, smokestack, 2X prison, karmic justice. I have k. grip and EE in my hand, so I take geddon and plan to counter justice, grip smokestack if necessary, and use EE to hopefully get his two prisons. It takes me a long time to find a 3rd colored mana source for EE since I embarrassingly have 2 useless wastelands against his all plains/flagstones draw. They end up not being so useless though since I eventually I get it my 3rd colored mana and use all 5 mana to play EE and explode 2 prisons and a trinisphere. The smokestack comes down too late to matter, as the artifacts and enchantments make goyf gigantic in this matchup.
R5: Aggro loam (he won the tourney)
G1: I mulligan a hand I probably should have kept (something like spell pierce, fow, snuff out, and either stifle and 3 lands or 4 lands) and keep a questionable hand with goyf and snuff out but not much else. I get him low with goyf but I have no real disruption and he lands a bob. It gets him pretty low but he has LFTL and lands a seismic assault. If he'd played a goyf or countryside crusher I could have won, since I not only had a useless snuff out but a tombstalker without enough graveyard to play it. As it is, when he's at about 3 life he stabilizes and dredges lftl a bunch to kill my goyf, then kills his own bob so as to not die to it. Once he does that I pack it in.
G2: We both keep and then he puts two leylines into play. I look at the two tombstalkers in my hand. Awkward. I am slowly annihilated by bob and countryside crusher.
R6: Canadian Thresh
G1: I punted this game really badly. We spend the early turns stifling and wasteland each others lands. It gets to a point where I have a fetchland and a bunch of really good cards in my hand, but no other land. I know I'm not drawing a land from an earlier brainstorm. He has no lands and I should just crack my fetch and ponder. I don't want to leave my land open to wasteland, but by passing I leave it open to stifle. My thinking was that if he has a fetchland and cracks, I can crack mine and stifle in response, but that would be a pretty bad play by him if he can wait a turn to do it, and was pretty greedy of me. As it turns out he just has a regular land and stifles me. Justice is served as I never draw another land.
G2: This game I misplayed too, though not quite as obviously. I plan to thoughtseize him next turn and so with my brainstorm I shuffle away two goyfs. My plan was just to take his goyf after thoughtseize with reanimate and use the ample disruption in my hand to ride it to victory, since really the only thing that deals with a goyf in this matchup is another goyf (or submerge, kinda) and I would have just taken one of his. I thought he had one since he'd pondered, but he actually just had two vindillion cliques. I take one of them and reanimate it, but it is much worse than goyf and he stabilizes at a low life. Eventually he gets two goyfs to my goyf and tombstalker. I will kill him next turn if he has stone nothing, but I know this is quite unlikely. He has ice for my tombstalker for the win. This game went on for quite a while but I think I really lost on the second turn by brainstorming wrong. I didn't take enough time to think in either of these games and it cost me. I am sure they were both winnable.
R7: WBUr control
G1: His mana draw is very awkward, he has a bunch of plains and nothing else. I spell pierce/daze a spell at one point to tap his wasteland so I can wasteland it, putting him back to 3 mana since I have some stifles for fetches he may draw. Eventually he succumbs to goyf/tombstalker beats with a bunch of uncastable spells in hand.
G2: Basically the same as game 1. I thoughtseize him and take a wrath, seeing two extirpates (basically mulligans) and and a decree of justice. His two extirpates later remove my FOW and spell pierce (after I've used 1 of each of course). They can't remove my win conditions though because he hasn't been able to kill them first. I counter a swords and he can't find another wrath. Cycled decree for two delays his death for a turn by blocking goyf but tombstalker finishes it.
So I end up 12th. In a diverse metagame, this deck is very good. I still need to figure out how to deal with leyline and if more is needed to do so, like trygon predator, which I had for a while and was decent. I'll be on the lookout for good stuff in worldwake. Anything like ponder/brainstorm/tarmogoyf would also bump the deck up another level.
Nice report and good finish! I have switched Sinkhole to Spell Pierce as well in my list but haven't had much of a chance to test it. It seems like they served you well though, so that is promising. I like your maindeck.
I think infest is bad against Merfolk, I have tested that extensively. Cursecatcher, along with Lords, make it come down too late to matter. Additional spot removal like Ghastly Demise is better overall, but I'd probably play more EE (great against Zoo and very versatile) and even try out Trygon Predator. He is surprisingly very good against Merfolk and a bomb in a lot of random situations. Just don't play him in the main.
Next time top 8! :smile:
Did you test the Zoo matchup before this tourney or did you not expect to see a lot of it? I'm surprised you didn't get matched with any. Nice job beating burn, and kudos on the report. Spell Pierce is the new Sinkhole.