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10 pieces of discard seems like a lot, to be honest. As well, the anti-synergy with Deed and Mox is enormous, so maybe that's why he's playing only 1 Deed. It makes sense that he might just use the Moxes early, grow Knight, pump out the fat early, and then not care Turn 10 when he Deeds for infinite. Honestly, I'd rather see Stronghold instead of Maze.
All in all, congrats to him for taking Rock to the Top! :D
-Matt
Originally the list ran 3 gerrad's verdict and had Deeds in the board (a full set of four). Testing showed that if you didn't win or lose early, you'd reduce your opponent to topdecking, and if you didn't have an active confidant, you were often in the same boat. The amount of discard the deck would topdeck into was a bit frustrating, and a way to gain card advantage on things in play seemed necessary. That brought a deed to the main, reducing the amount of discard down to 10 from 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by danpo
Becuase 4 is too many. Drawing 4 mox diamonds is pretty horrible. But the card is good, and speeding up a turn is rather strong. Turn 1 Hymn's and confidants can change games, and turn 2 Knights at 4/4 is mighty good as well. It also makes hitting your color requirements easier, as the mana base of the Kowal special is a little fragile at times. The anti synnergy with Deed is pretty minimal. Odds are, if your mana screwed, Deed isn't going to be helping you anyway. Besides, nothing in the deck costs more than 3. And I can't count the times that I've played a mox, choosing not to discard a land, solely to beef up my goyf and speed up the clock.Quote:
Why only three Mox Diamonds? It seems like an awkward contrast with Deed.
Fairly often. Last I checked, Emrakul and Iona aren't the only creatures in the format. Obviously you get Karakas for those creatures, for other creatures you get Maze. It makes attacking for you opponent very problematic. Hell, on his last match of Day 2, I watched Kowal beating a zoo player with his knight, and using maze of ith post combat damage to untap it, then get to use the knights ability at end of turn. Also, the fact that he had Maze out slowed the zoo player down and led to the victory in that game. Horizon Canopy is a fine card in a deck that functions on 3 mana sources and still plays a long game. Being able to turn 1 of your lands in play into an extra card in hand is good last I checked. As for Progentius, obviously, you cant use a land to beat him. That's why there were edict effects in the board.Quote:
And how often do you use Knight to find Horizon Canopy or Maze of Ith? The match-ups where you really desperately want such a card, Karakas seems just as good. Bouncing Emrakul or Iona is better than un-attacking them, and neither matters against Progenitus, plus Karakas taps for W.
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Not saying any of these choices is wrong - the deck topped a GP, after all - but I'm curious what the pros/cons of these decisions are, and the logic behind them.
It seemed to me that Diamond was really there so the deck could play turbo-Hymn. Which is cute, but not, I think something I would want to play in tournament. You're trading consistency for power, and if you look at the top decks in the format (not just at the GP, but overall, the DTB's for the last year), they're all the most stable forms of their respective archetypes.
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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
Why is Mox less consistent? Legitimate question!
I see it as a colored mana source that's not Wastable, not PoPable and not BtBasicable. It pumps your Reliquary and accelerates into broken turn 1 and 2 plays.
I've been working on a similar list to the one that top 8ed, we run the same creatures but my approach is totally different. I prefer to run more controllish to offset the mox's card disadvantage. The way I see it, the clock is not terribly fast anyways, so why not play more controllish? My list:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords
3 Top
3 EE
3 Vindicate
4 Intuition
4 Mox diamond
1 Life from the loam
1 Crucible
1 Volrath
1 Academy ruins
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
1 Forest
3 Savanna
2 Bayou
2 Tropical
1 Scrubland
It folds to combo I assure you, but it is exceptionally good vs mid range and a resolved intuition = unending headaches vs control. Aggro is 50/50, excellent vs folk (just dont search out the trop, use a mox instead) so-so vs zoo. Most importantly, this is endless fun. The cards all synergize well with each other. For those who would prefer a more controllish take on the rock, this is my suggestion as a starting point. Some card choice explanations:
Goyf and bob are straight forward, they do what they do very well. Knight of the reliquary on the other hand is amazing. I was playing knight in zoo and new horizons and realised that this dude is not being used to its full potential. What if we used it in a controllish build? It not only fetches what you need (maze, recursion via stronghold/ruins/wasteland) EVERY turn, it also has a huge body to block. You can even block, and still seach eot.This is gas +answer+ disruption+ size in one card. This list fully abuses KOTR as loam and crucible allows you to consistently make drops everyturn. So while you have it, why not play an accelerator that takes advantage of it as well: mox diamond. It fixes your mana, gives you turn 1 goyfs/bobs. Late top decks are great in conjunction with crucible/loam. Only downside is not being able to play deed, but I wont want to sweep my bob/knight/goyfs anyhow. I play EE instead, it serves the same role as deed, albeit more narrowly. However, it can be recurred with academy ruins. Try this list out, its a ton of fun while not being TOO terrible. :)
Mox is comparable to a card like Dark Ritual; good for explosive early starts, bad when it comes to topdecking late game. Once you've made your third land drop, you really don't want to draw a Mox.Quote:
Why is Mox less consistent? Legitimate question!
IMO mox diamond should not be run in any deck without either loam or crucible. Like mentioned above, you don't want to see it late. It does fuel explosive starts and is a bad topdeck, another downside is that, unlike ritual, you can't cut lands for moxes. If say you went ritual-less to ritualed (like reanimator) you could cut like 2 lands. Adding moxes to a deck still requires you to keep the same land count. So you have 4 extra manasources instead of just 2 in the case of ritual. This really hurts your lategame.
I can see pros and cons for Diamonds, and while you may not like it, i like them alot. The problem with the Rock for me is, frankly, that it's just a bit too fair. I mean, considering what other decks can do on their 1st-3rd turns, most of the time we just try to respond (quickly enough if possible) to their broken plays. Diamond cuts the 1-2-3 routine with 1st turn Hymns/Goyfs, but sacrificing its lategame a bit.
I mean it's nothing new in the book, but i like it more than Dark Ritual or the SFM package If it feels inconsistent, i still like them more than that illusionary safety that SFM brings to "untuned" decks. I always feel wrong when i am equiping my guys at sorcery speed.. heck, i feel wrong if i need to equip my guys at all..
Considering Crucible- could a pair of those maybe run in the SB? I mean, that would just make that BWG Junk an evil twin brother of New Horizons:) Too cute maybe..
This. The deck has little manipulation and Mox is dead after turn 2 (you curve out at 3 mana). With 3 in the deck, you've got less than a 50% chance of seeing one in the first 8.5 cards (assuming 50% play and 50% draw), so in over half your games it's a dead draw. Plus a double Diamond opening is unkeepable. 2 for 1ing yourself can be ok sometimes, but in this deck it's gwnerally just bad and you don't run enough draw/filter to justify it on the strength of T1 Hymn...Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw712
I think Noble Hierarch is better in this slot than Mox. She gets taken out by your Deed, but also pumps up your attack, so it's not a dead draw later in the game.
-Matt
I agree. Plus, a two land hand with Hierarch looks a lot better than a two land hand with a Mox.Quote:
I think Noble Hierarch is better in this slot than Mox. She gets taken out by your Deed, but also pumps up your attack, so it's not a dead draw later in the game.
Have you consider Volrath Stronghold as another silver bullet or you think it is too slow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpened
I considered it and tested it the week before the GP. It was definitely underwhelming. It's quite slow, and won't particularly help you much against the aggro decks. Against control decks, its fine, but not exactly great. More often then not when I was having trouble sticking creatures they weren't in the graveyard (Swords, Path). I mean, it works sometimes becuase they counter your creatures and you just run them out of countermagic. Of course, the amount of times that happens AND you either stuck a Knight for a turn or drew the singleton stronghold is pretty low. And adding another colorless mana source is not something your eager to do with the decks current manabase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renato
Yo there,
Been playing this deck for a while, and came across a couple questions. I read about 20 pages back on this thread, and didn't see any discussion on them. If I need to go back further to find this discussion, lemme know. :)
1) What's the logic on Swords over Path? If you aren't running Sinkholes, it seems better to give them basic land (if they have any) than to give them life. On the flip side, giving them land seems to help pick up their tempo, which isn't what this deck wants to promote. Which removal spell is better here?
2) I've been dinking around with what to do on my last 4 open slots. Has anyone tried 3x Natural Order, 1x Progenitus in their builds? I realize we don't run any counters to support the Natural Order like Bant does. However, if the opponent doesn't see any blue mana perhaps it's a decent plan b win condition one could sneak through.
Thoughts? Thanks.
-Jimmy
@JimmyC27:
1) Pretty much the consensus on the Swords/Path discussion is that, in any non-Zoo deck, Swords > Path. The Rock isn't trying to kill the opponent as fast as possible, so the life boost isn't too relevant. However, some builds of The Rock try to capitalize on tempo by playing Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise, and that tempo is completely negated if you play a Path on one of their creatures. Not to mention you can Swords your own creature for the life against Burn or Zoo, while Pathing your own creature for life is a lot less rewarding.
2) That's entirely dependent on the rest of your deck, so if you're willing to share your list, I'll be happy to tell you what I think. Personally, I like Elspeth better as a finisher, since you'll never randomly draw that Progenitus with no way to put it back, and it doesn't cost you a creature if it gets countered.
I've been reading this thread for a bit and figured I'd add my two cents into the mix. I've been playing around with what is essentially a rock deck. I took it the the grand prix columbus and did fairly decent with it. Went 7-1-1 on day 1 and ended up at 71st place in the end. Both days started off with me losing followed by winning out the rest of the day. After playing it there here's what I have to say. First off, there was not a matchup where I felt like I didn't have a good chance of winning; there was never a time where the matchup was drastically in their favor. Also I feel that I placed 71st because of my play skill. I made a lot of errors and things like that, therefore I can't blame it on the deck. I honestly think if I had played better (more sleep would have helped this) the deck would have went a lot further. At some points the deck actually picked up the slack from my bad plays and still won me matches. Here's my list
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
Sorceries
3 Life from the Loam
3 Vindicate
1 Worm Harvest
1 Firespout
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ghastly Demise
Artifacts
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamonds
Lands
3 Wateland
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Secluded Steppe
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Savanah
1 Plateau
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Treetop village
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Firespout
1 Tabernacle at Pendril Vale
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Initially I did have Bobs in the main because the card advantage is sick, but I started to change the build to be more metagamed. I was preparing more for the aggro matchup especially zoo as I knew that was going to be the deck to beat. That's why you see Kitchen Finks in the main rather than Dark Confidant. This was a bit of a last minute switch and after playing at the GP, there were a few changes I made to the build. I realized even without the md firespout, this deck has a lot of game vs. zoo or any aggro decks. So I swapped that for a maindeck eternal witness which is pretty good vs zoo also because it can recur swords or demise. Also i swapped the 4 Bobs in the side for 4 Leyline of Santity. The reason for this is because up until the combo matchup was just a throw away. With sanctity around, it actually gives somewhat of a chance. I've been thinking of trying to fit maze of ith into the main somewhere and also maybe trying to include a karakas somewhere into the 75, but I'm not sure how relevant it is anymore.
I played against a TON of bant decks at the GP. Everything from counterbalance style ones to new horizons to the natural order/progenitus style ones. These were all pretty easy wins. Nothing like paying 4 for Engineered Explosives at 2. One game they had me on a CB lock with a 2 and a 3 on top. So every turn I dredged my loam only for it to be countered just looking to get to that worm harvest. This deck proved to be a lot of fun and definitely very potent. The graveyard hate in the form of extirpate and bog are priceless and Tabernacle steals a lot of games.
I'm sure most of the options for this build are self explanatory so I won't go into any real details. Quasali was a bit of a last minute add too, but it proved to be a real team player. While every other guy was eating swords to plowshares, he was usually the beater that got in for 9 or more damage. The one of terravore helps confuse the opponent and hope they bring in a ton of graveyard hate. Usually people will bring in graveyard hate in this matchup when they see loam. So games 2 and 3 end up playing out just as a rock deck. The 2 of ghastly demise in the md completely rocked the house. I wasn't sure of how well it'd work out, but definitely beats path to exile here. I completely dropped the discard idea and decided to just go for the beats and blow up. It turned out pretty good.
I've tinkered with a few different variations of the deck, including playing stoneforge mystic and the equipment package, also tried playing deed, but this one worked out best for me. If you've read all this and tried to comprehend my writing and are still reading, congratulations!
Please let me know your input here, thanks!
Congrats on yor finish!
The deck seems nice, i allways liked Worm Harvest. Your list takes a walk into a Trisomy park and still comes out as a Rock:)
@ Leyline of Sanctity- how does it fare against combo? Did you try it? I guess it can be pretty good with your list, since you dont play discard.
@ Maze of Ith- i just love that card with Knight. But the deck seems to be pretty tight..
i am playing maze of ith as well and i can only suggest you to try it yourself, it simply rocks the house^^
@ Magicsk8ngenius: i have to say i like your liste very much, its definetly a different aproach to a rock deck, and i right now am thinking after a lot of testing with my 3 different rock lists, that maybe we should all try to construct so sorts of hybrid decks since i think the rock is the only deck which can actually support hybrid builds
in the past few pages of this thread came up so many different approaches to this deck that i am seduced to try out a completely different approach to this deck, because i have to say maybe the fact that rock decks can be so different could actually be our greatest advantage, since no one really can know how to play against your deck
i was curious as well about leyline of sanctity, i was wondering if it can alone stall the combo matchup long enough so we could win this game even without discard
Leyline of Sanctity is great in the Storm Matchup. They have to either find their few bounce spells without Mystical, or they'll go Empty the Warrens. The nice thing? you're playing Tabernacle. Im thinking this matchup should be fine for you.
Also, I'd think about putting a Karakas somewhere in the 75. Emrakul and Iona are still relevant, the Emrakul moreso. He's a menace if he hits the board, so you want a way to remove him. Maze won't stop Annihilator. That is the main problem.
But, Maze does hit Dreadnought, Tombstalker, etc.
More when I finish my exams.
-Matt
Zalachan is right, the list is pretty tight which makes it a little hard to fit maze in, which I'd really like to fit it in somewhere. Maybe in place of treetop village, since it's rarely relevant. The thing is that when treetop is good, it can win games. I sometimes run into problems with tombstalker though. Even though he's smaller than my dudes usually, he flies. Maze seems like a good answer here.
Leyline of Sanctity: I haven't done any real playtesting with it but I did toss it into my build at a local legacy tournament this wednesday. I played against belcher and here's how it went. After losing game 1 on turn 1 i brought in leylines, needles, firespout, and tabernacle. I kept a 7 card hand with leyline and tabernacle, nothing else mattered. I dropped the leyline and another land and said go. This forced him to empty the warrens, which he did. Tabernacle hit the board and it said game over for him. Game 3 I mulligan down to 3 searching for leyline. I end up keeping 2 lands and a needle. He does nothing and says go... I drop the needle naming belcher of course. He says go again. I drop a second fetch and play loam that was off a top deck. He empties for 14 guys or whatever. My only real chance here is to either try to top deck a firespout or dredge hoping to hit tabernacle. I'm pretty sure that statistically my chance are better with dredging and hoping for tabernacle, so that's what I do failing to find it and lose.
I can't really base much off of one match's results but I'm pretty sure that leyline of sanctity is much needed here. If it's against storm combo, they are a little slower to begin with and vulnerable to wastelocks. Even though they have a better chance to take out the leyline by digging for a bounce spell, this can give me some extra time to put enough damage through. This deck can sometimes explode with a giant knight knocking at your door on turn 3.