I'm just not seeing that. On paper Pridemages and Tops instead of Bobs and Crushers just doesn't seem that much faster. Definitely an interesting, and apparently proven, take on Naya Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
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I'm just not seeing that. On paper Pridemages and Tops instead of Bobs and Crushers just doesn't seem that much faster. Definitely an interesting, and apparently proven, take on Naya Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Bob is a terrible attacker in Legacy (actually, in general as well). He's a 2/1 with no evasion and you rarely want to send him into combat anyway because he's more valuable as a Phyrexian Arena than as damage. Pridemage is at least a Watchwolf alone, a bear when not, and lends his support to bigger creatures when you can't safely attack with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Crusher does not seem hot in a format with a lot of StPs (with Snapcasters), bounce spells, GftT/Dismembers, etc. I would rather run Terravore because he's bigger right away, but Knight is probably better than either of those except for the fact that you need white for her.
However, the dorks aside, he runs Bolt, StP, and Top on one when most Aggro Loam lists, even Jund ones, run zero one drops despite not having Chalice. It gives him more options when creating an early-game presence and keeps him from falling too far behind against tempo decks. He is far less reliant on Mox Diamond than most Jund builds, for example, and if I were Canadian Thresh against this deck I would seriously consider Spell Piercing/Dazing the Diamonds because it's practically a Time Walk against most AL builds.
My biggest beef is that I feel Big Zoo with GSZ and planeswalkers is just a better implementation, but he's been playing this build since forever and has a lot of play experience, so that helps.
So why any other loam RGBW is not a big zoo with loam package??Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
I think there is much more than that in his deck
Anyway, what do you think about throwing away completely the black colour?
I'll answer the second question first.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
I think that going Naya colors means you need to speed the deck up, because losing Dark Confidant is an issue if you stay in midrange territory - you don't have enough ways to draw cards or generate card advantage (LftL alone is not enough).
And now for the answer for your first question: why aren't four-color builds also just "Big Zoo" decks? Because Big Zoo is still fundamentally an aggro deck, and Aggro Loam is fundamentally a midrange deck. Put another way: even Big Zoo still has the capability to kill people with very aggressive starts, while Aggro Loam almost never does even when you open on a Mox Diamond. Zoo, even Big Zoo builds that are more top-heavy, values mana efficiency for its creatures over basically everything else; Aggro Loam values size and flexibility. Zoo is dominant in the early game and looks to follow through on its gains in the midgame; Aggro Loam is weak in the early game and looks to take over the midgame and then grind out an inevitable late-game.
In other words, Big Zoo is still an aggro deck that has just slowed down and tried to go over the top, while Aggro Loam is pretty much always a midrange deck. On a spectrum of fair decks from "almost combo-speed aggro" to "grind-'em-out control," Aggro Loam is more or less in the middle while Big Zoo leans towards the aggro end much more heavily.
That's why I feel losing some of Aggro Loam's midrange-ness just makes you a worse implementation of Big Zoo. You have none of Big Zoo's ability to just quickly beat people up sometimes, and you have a lot of the liabilities of being a fair, midrange-ish deck. The Loam engine - with the cycling cards and Seismic Assault - gives you a better late-game, sure, but I don't think Big Zoo is exactly hurting for that if it's running GSZ and planeswalkers and the Loam engine eats up tons of space for something that is fundamentally a late-game engine.
In short, I don't think his deck is "the answer" to Aggro Loam's woes. I think he did well with it because he's been playing it forever and has tons of experience with it, and knowing the ins and outs of your deck and your matchups is a huge deal in Legacy (since many people won't be nearly as up to speed as you are). It's certainly not a bad deck, per se, but it's not the kind of deck that is well-positioned or inherently powerful enough to win a big tournament.
About the midrange-ness - obv, we lose the Dark Confidant, but we gain the Top. Top is just so powerful and flexible. Confidant gets the first removal spell it can take, except if you have a chalice, but chalice...it's good only if you install it T1, so you have to make a combo of two cards - Mox+Chalice on T1 (+2 lands ofc). It's a 2-card combo that doesn't instantly win a game, so it's a bad one.
Big Zoo - I totally agree with you, but I'm against calling Naya Loam a big zoo with loam package. 11 creatures is not zoo.
^^ Or they don't have removal and bob wins the game. And don't buy into the negativity. Bob IS a threat. 2 damage a turn adds up when your deck is full of shit like bolt, seismic and lavamancer.
I just don't see how 3 Pridemages comes anywhere close to creating the kind of early game that Zoo has. Pridemage is usually the weakest guy Zoo plays in terms of power/cmc ratio, but his ability is so relevant that he generally still makes the cut as a 2 or 3-of. I think in this case he's more of a hatebear/utility guy than a beater, but I could be way off. I would still really like to hear from the guy that ran it. I can't help but wonder if it really is a superior build to Jund or if it's a combination of skilled play, a pilot that's really comfortable with his deck, and a list that's unconventional enough that most people aren't prepared to play against it.
They don't. Don't think about it like you think about Zoo. In this deck he does 2 functions - make tarmo bigger or destroy something (equips,vial,moat,etc) sometimes without letting the opponent pass, so this function is somekind similar to vindicate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
This build if far more superior than RBG because of its flexibily given by the 1cc spells, but this list if far more harder to play (sometimes I look in my hand and I say to myself: omg, what the truck shoud I do with this) and the fact that everyone expects black helps a lot also=)
I tried Top at one point and I don't think it's an adequate substitute for Dark Confidant. The Naya build that did well at the GP is probably fine with it because it can play more aggressively in the early game thanks to its 1cc removal and generally better curve (which is why it plays closer to a Big Zoo deck than a traditional Aggro Loam deck; the tempo is different), so Top makes sense there as a bridge in the midgame. I would still want to try a mix of Tops and Sylvan Libraries because the ability to draw multiple cards per turn without having to cash in a Top or spend a million mana to Loam is important.
You should use loam+cyclers then, but loosing 4 pv (even 8 maybe?) per turn is really painful (...in this deck), but of course it's more mana-effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
The problem of the mix is that once you have one piece you wouldn't need the other one, don't you agree?
Loam and cycling lands eats up a ton of mana, though. For five mana, four of it colored, you can draw three cards or draw two cards and mill three to get back Loam. Compare that to Jace TMS, which Brainstorms every turn for free, or Bob, who draws a card every turn for free-ish, or Library, that can draw an extra card for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
You really need two ways to draw in this deck; because Loam is almost strictly late-game, you need something to smooth out your draws in the early and midgames. Bob/Top/Library do that, but I would prefer Library because it is free to use although Top is better with fetches and can draw a card for free at the cost of your next draw being Top. I would want to test a mix because they don't overlap perfectly and one of them is probably better in context than the other, though I don't know that I ever tested them side-by-side. I think mana efficiency is the bigger issue for this deck, so Library might be better, but it's hard to say.
I see clearly your point, but don't you think that Top is better also because of the ability draw a card on the instant speed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
If your deck is full of effects that happen at instant speed, then sure. But most Aggro Loam decks aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
Sure, because the don't play bolt/stp (read: because they are RBG(W)) =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Eh...there's a total of seven cards that can played from the hand at instant speed in that build (cycling lands kind of count but not really). That they're all removal spells makes Top more attractive; that there aren't many of them makes it less attractive compared to static effects that draw cards for no extra mana input. Drawing a card with Top is rarely free unless you know some of your top several cards from a previous turn's Top activation; most often you will pay 1, look, reorder, and then tap to draw, making Top a better cycling land except for the fact that your next draw will be a Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by marcel
I like Top more in blue decks because there are a lot more cards that are likely to be live when you're drawing on your opponent's turn. That is why I would want to test a mix of draw spells here: to see how often being able to draw removal on an opponent's turn is relevant versus how often I would rather spend the mana doing stuff on my turn.
Are you/do you know Dmitry Nikitin, the guy who played that 17th place list?
Why have you thought so?=)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Any way I'm not, but I know him well. I was playing my list for sometime, very similar to his.
Might I say, nice fucking job, Tony?
Does anyone know where Tony's T8 footage is? I missed it since Gran Torino was on :tongue:
-Matt
Seconded. Congrats man!Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Wow, some of these people in the T8 have the most ridiculous occupations.
Lastly of course: REPRESENT WEST SIDE!
Congrats Tony.
Edit: Can't wait to read another legendary tournament report.