[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

Additional lands doesn't make the D4s weaker. In the example you described there are still 53 cards left in the deck. That means you don't have resources yet. You have to build a grind board state to actually start grinding. If you get lucky with the first D4, then you should go as deep as you want (and kill if you can or play Belcher pass), but it doesn't guarantee that you'll get the kill because you dilute the main deck to an anti-control version that prefers consistency, perpetual resources, and protection. These things naturally inhibit long spell chains no matter what board configuration of the grind plan that you play. Its better to first secure a board state, then grind out the win. In the case of having multiple LGs in hand, they are not necessarily guaranteed land drops. Your opponent can Snare or Pierce them knowing that eventually you'll have enough land to negate the Pierce/Daze. Having extra lands means you get to turn off Spell Pierce and Daze and force them to play hard counter magic on your business. In that case lands become valuable and actually lets you resolve your D4s instead of trading D4 for Spell Pierce until they run out of counter magic. The more of them you draw the better and the more of them you play the better chance you have of opening with one or two. Ideally, I prefer to open with 3 perpetual resources and work up from there. If I add in some acceleration, we can dodge Pierce/Daze with the rituals or CoF and force them to FoW/Counterspell. Once the hard counter magic is gone, you can play your Belcher or IT and get there.

Granted, having more lands means that you are almost guaranteed to misfire if Belcher comes down early. But when we know we are moving to mid game if we don't get off an early protected business spell, Carpet vs. slower control, or early EtW, then it doesn't matter that you are playing 5 lands in a deck that plays Belcher because you often play at least 3 of your lands while grinding. By the time Belcher comes down, you have a lower chance of misfiring, especially if you leave Taiga for last because you haven't gone for EtW already. Otherwise, when Belcher comes down early.. decks like RUG/UR Tempo have absolutely no way to remove Belcher and Miracles/Stoneblade don't often remove it either, and when the have, I'm so far ahead with perpetuals that they lose anyway. This isn't always the case but too often does an early Belcher win the game even through 2 or 3 misfires while a mid or late game Belcher means I've already hit all my lands or most of them. Keep in mind that in testing of this build with much land, I haven't actually lost because of Belcher misfires. Most of the time I've lost because I don't have enough perpetual resources to grind effectively.

I'm not a fan of PIF because the only cards it works well with post-board are D4s, IT, Crit, Drit, EtW, and Tendrils. Pact and Culling come out so you won't always have shit sitting in the yard to abuse when you draw it as a potential business spell. Further, Carpet and LED do not work with PIF at all but you can actually use either one with IGG. I've won the game by returning a countered Carpet of Flowers with a Bayou to cast, pass to second main phase and add enough mana to get there. Also, IGG is fantastic with LED, unlike PIF. You can't IGG loop if LED is your acceleration for PIF. Thats huge especially if your meta has a lot of combo where you need the win right now and can't just go for tokens. Against blue though where PIF > IGG.. EtW is just as effective as PIF but for the cost of 3R vs. 3R + B initial mana source. Also, IGG has been indispensable in the discard match ups. Also, I don't know how often you've encountered IGG as business spell but it can be a pseudo-mind twist. SI has a much easier time recovering form "discard 4 cards" than most other decks. In general I've found IGG to be much more flexible even though its not a card I can port to the control match ups, where main deck PIF would be. Granted each has there own play style so if it works, go for it but I haven't had much luck with it myself in the main deck. I'm more optimistic about putting it in the sideboard. I might cut a Bayou for it.


Also, if you find yourself having trouble against Maverick or DnT because of Thalia, have you considered having the main deck EtW and 3 EtW in the board? It makes your spell chains smaller so you can D4 into Belcher, pass the turn or EtW pass.. or just natural EtW from your hand via Taiga or Lotus Petal. 10 tokens gets there if its turn 1. I find it more consistent to go for tokens then hope you have the piece of hate and they don't also drop Mother of Runes, or force you into a must win situation after you remove the bear. The EtW are also indispensable in the Tempo matchup where 4 EtW gives you a higher chance of opening T1 with tokens and just steam rolling them.. especially when the grind plan is less effective against Tempo due to needing fewer Islands to function, Daze, a faster clock, and reach.


If you want to abuse PIF to its fullest potential, perhaps a Belcherless Pact list, with post-board PIF and Lands would be the best bet. Tendrils and EtW in the main deck.

So, off the top of my head.

maindeck PIF and then:

SB
4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 EtW
1 PIF
3 Bayou
1 Taiga

So you'll have 2 PIF 3 EtW afterwards and you'll be going for a longer spell chain or hoping to hit EtW on a single D4. You won't have to worry about Belcher misfire at all, lands will help facilitate a PIF line of play, same as CoF. I wonder if some variation of this could work for PSI. Its more vulnerable to Flusterstorm (no Belcher), and it relies on longer spell chains, and its very graveyard hate able if they catch on and board in their Crypts, Relics, etc. though I think I'll test it anyway and see how it goes. That is, after I've tested the 4 land SB plan I'm running currently against various Tempo decks. I've concluded its pretty damn good against slower controls decks. The tempo matchup is still largely untested.

As far as the man plan goes, Death's Shadow actually isn't that bad. I used to play 2 in the main deck actually and they were occasionally really awesome, especially when I boarded into the full man plan. Its definitely a strictly Tempo meta strategy though. STP and Snapcaster rape the man plan otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Additional lands doesn't make the D4s weaker. In the example you described there are still 53 cards left in the deck. That means you don't have resources yet.

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Well, I think I satisfactorily demonstrated that more lands gives the D4s more dead draws when going for a spell chain. Whether or not that makes them "weaker" I suppose depends on what your desired lines of play are--but in my eyes your configuration is definitely "weaker."

And, to be fair, I never said what the rest of your hand was in the scenario I described. Maybe there's also an ESG and a Carpet of Flowers in there.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

You have to build a grind board state to actually start grinding. If you get lucky with the first D4, then you should go as deep as you want (and kill if you can or play Belcher pass), but it doesn't guarantee that you'll get the kill because you dilute the main deck to an anti-control version that prefers consistency, perpetual resources, and protection. These things naturally inhibit long spell chains no matter what board configuration of the grind plan that you play. Its better to first secure a board state, then grind out the win.

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Although you are correct, this in no way negates the fact that additional lands make D4 chains even worse. I win with D4 chains--pre-board and post-board--enough that I would probably not be willing to add more lands. And I think you can "get lucky" with the first D4 more than you seem to imply. Sometimes the blue opponents don't mull into Force because they think their double Spell Pierce or whatever will get there, and although I might be taking out the Culling package it doesn't mean D4 chains are impossible. Yes, they're worse--although sometimes even Culling itself can occasionally be a bad draw in a D4 chain (ever been cock blocked by a D4 into Culling/IT/x/x that kept you from going hellbent? I know I have.)

Also my example didn't account for the late game, but I think that more lands would make your late/mid-game D4s worse as well. I know you said that you tend to have all your lands out by then, but I imagine that doesn't always happen, and then you can potentially hit lands you don't want off D4s you need to chain in order to win.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

In the case of having multiple LGs in hand, they are not necessarily guaranteed land drops. Your opponent can Snare or Pierce them knowing that eventually you'll have enough land to negate the Pierce/Daze. Having extra lands means you get to turn off Spell Pierce and Daze and force them to play hard counter magic on your business. In that case lands become valuable and actually lets you resolve your D4s instead of trading D4 for Spell Pierce until they run out of counter magic. The more of them you draw the better and the more of them you play the better chance you have of opening with one or two. Ideally, I prefer to open with 3 perpetual resources and work up from there. If I add in some acceleration, we can dodge Pierce/Daze with the rituals or CoF and force them to FoW/Counterspell. Once the hard counter magic is gone, you can play your Belcher or IT and get there.

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That all sounds good but IMO all the mana development you really need is Carpet of Flowers plus the mana sources and acceleration already in the deck. Even post-board the majority of the deck is mana. I haven't tested your list (although I will) but I can't imagine ever wanting to draw land like you're describing, giving my blue opponents more draws and potentially allowing a RUG opponent to swing in with a Delver.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Granted, having more lands means that you are almost guaranteed to misfire if Belcher comes down early. But when we know we are moving to mid game if we don't get off an early protected business spell, Carpet vs. slower control, or early EtW, then it doesn't matter that you are playing 5 lands in a deck that plays Belcher because you often play at least 3 of your lands while grinding. By the time Belcher comes down, you have a lower chance of misfiring, especially if you leave Taiga for last because you haven't gone for EtW already. Otherwise, when Belcher comes down early.. decks like RUG/UR Tempo have absolutely no way to remove Belcher

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RUG often runs Ancient Grudge in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

and Miracles/Stoneblade don't often remove it either

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But sometimes they do. Sometimes they have Disenchant. And if you have to activate multiple times because you keep hitting lands, you're giving them more opportunities to draw/cantrip into Disenchant.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

and when the have, I'm so far ahead with perpetuals that they lose anyway. This isn't always the case but too often does an early Belcher win the game even through 2 or 3 misfires while a mid or late game Belcher means I've already hit all my lands or most of them. Keep in mind that in testing of this build with much land, I haven't actually lost because of Belcher misfires. Most of the time I've lost because I don't have enough perpetual resources to grind effectively.

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I will try your list. Everything you're describing sounds very good, if true. (Not that I don't believe you, I merely suspect that variance may have been in your favor--but, again, I haven't tried your list.)

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I'm not a fan of PIF because the only cards it works well with post-board are D4s, IT, Crit, Drit, EtW, and Tendrils.

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So the only things it works well with are:
1) Every single business spell except Charbelcher--including IT and D4s, which can find a Charbelcher.
2) The best acceleration in my deck (and if I'm casting PiF with a full graveyard I probably have threshold).

Sounds good to me.

It does also work with Land Grant and Duress, which are rarely relevant but can randomly be good.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Pact and Culling come out so you won't always have shit sitting in the yard to abuse when you draw it as a potential business spell.

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It's true, you won't always have a good graveyard--but you frequently will. You won't always have a good graveyard for IGG either, I don't really see your point here.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Further, Carpet and LED do not work with PIF at all but you can actually use either one with IGG. I've won the game by returning a countered Carpet of Flowers with a Bayou to cast, pass to second main phase and add enough mana to get there. Also, IGG is fantastic with LED, unlike PIF. You can't IGG loop if LED is your acceleration for PIF.

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So your argument basically boils down to:
a) You won't always have specific graveyard combinations that are good with PiF.
b) Therefore PiF is bad.
c) Here are some specific graveyard combinations that are good with IGG.
d) Therefore IGG is good.

...

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Against blue though where PIF > IGG.. EtW is just as effective as PIF but for the cost of 3R vs. 3R + B initial mana source.

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EtW does a completely different thing than PiF does, they are not comparable.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Also, IGG has been indispensable in the discard match ups.

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Past in Flames could be good there too. I mean, it even has flashback.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Also, I don't know how often you've encountered IGG as business spell but it can be a pseudo-mind twist. SI has a much easier time recovering form "discard 4 cards" than most other decks. In general I've found IGG to be much more flexible even though its not a card I can port to the control match ups,

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Yes, the card is good sometimes. I am not disputing that. I simply don't encounter those times where the card is good as much I find other cards being better, so it's not in my list.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

where main deck PIF would be. Granted each has there own play style so if it works, go for it but I haven't had much luck with it myself in the main deck.

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Me either, which is why I don't play with it in the main deck.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I'm more optimistic about putting it in the sideboard. I might cut a Bayou for it.

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That is almost certainly correct.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Also, if you find yourself having trouble against Maverick or DnT because of Thalia, have you considered having the main deck EtW and 3 EtW in the board? It makes your spell chains smaller so you can D4 into Belcher, pass the turn or EtW pass.. or just natural EtW from your hand via Taiga or Lotus Petal. 10 tokens gets there if its turn 1...If you want to abuse PIF to its fullest potential, perhaps a Belcherless Pact list, with post-board PIF and Lands would be the best bet. Tendrils and EtW in the main deck.

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I already have 1x EtW in the main deck.

It definitely does help for when you can't quite hit enough storm but have plenty of mana. (And for that reason I like it vs. every deck.) But sometimes I can't get there by T2 because of bad draws, whatever, and their T2 Thalia shuts me down. This deck usually just wins before then, but every now and then it just doesn't and I want to have some answers for those times. Really, though, all the available answers are pretty bad.

I already play 2x Tendrils as well, and have no interest in playing PiF main or improving the card--it's already good enough as-is. Belcher is way too good to cut, I used to play the D7 list and when I tried Belcher it was a real eye opener. Playing the card is correct, PSI is a perfect shell for it: tons of fast mana, not a lot of lands.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

As far as the man plan goes, Death's Shadow actually isn't that bad. I used to play 2 in the main deck actually and they were occasionally really awesome, especially when I boarded into the full man plan. Its definitely a strictly Tempo meta strategy though. STP and Snapcaster rape the man plan otherwise.

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I've seen you suggest Death's Shadow before. (I think I've read just about everything on the internet about this deck.) I haven't tried it yet because I haven't had a ton of success with man plans in general. Sometimes they're randomly good but I've definitely played games where my opponent left in removal for a non-existant Xantid Swarm or something.

FWIW since you haven't seen my list and seem to be offering suggestions that are already in-line with what I have, here's what I'm currently playing (with mostly Japanese cards and FBB duals :smile:):

Main
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor

4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Culling the Weak
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Tinder Wall
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Dryad Arbor


Side
4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Taiga
3 Slaughter Pact

I played once against such a cruel bargain list and it was not funny for me. :)

Question: Why is Belcher without black more common that this? To me this looks stronger...

@lochan

I'm goldfishing your list to get a different perspective on PSI.
10 hands so far and mostly T1 Tendrils, T1 EtW for 12, or T1 Belcher activating by t3.

Just curious though, what's the role of Wild Cantor in your main?
It helps you play EtW true, but if you Pact for it won't you usually die to the trigger before the goblins get to swing? Or are you just trying to draw into Cantor?

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Originally Posted by catmint

I played once against such a cruel bargain list and it was not funny for me. :)

Question: Why is Belcher without black more common that this? To me this looks stronger...

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I have wondered this myself, although PSI is a little less straight-forward and less well known. Personally I think it's a bit stronger than straight Charbelcher for many reasons, including that it gets to play the best rituals and can rebuild much faster. It does sometimes lose to itself, though, which is awkward.

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Originally Posted by Sockosensei

@lochan

I'm goldfishing your list to get a different perspective on PSI.
10 hands so far and mostly T1 Tendrils, T1 EtW for 12, or T1 Belcher activating by t3.

Just curious though, what's the role of Wild Cantor in your main?
It helps you play EtW true, but if you Pact for it won't you usually die to the trigger before the goblins get to swing? Or are you just trying to draw into Cantor?

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I think my list is pretty close to what other people are playing, but I'm glad you're goldfishing such good results with it. I goldfish it nearly every day and it's definitely a very fast and powerful deck.

I would of course never Pact when going for an EtW line of play (unless I have some weird line involving paying for the Pact with LED). It's interesting that you suggested Cantor was good for red color fixing, Tinder Wall is actually better for that purpose since it makes :r::r: off of :g:+S.Pact (and, again, is not great for EtW--mainly Tinder Wall is for generating +1 net mana off S.Pact to play or Activate Belcher).

Anyway, Cantor has a ton of utility here (I think most PSI lists play it), although it's all kind of weird and subtle utility.
1) Mainly it's as a lamb for Culling if, for whatever reason, I can't play either a Skyshroud Cutter or a Dryad Arbor. This is probably the most frequent thing I do with the card and happens because some combination of: I've already cast a Culling, I don't have a Forest, I've already made a land drop (e.g. I have already played and culled Dryad Arbor that turn).
2) Color fixing :g: into :b:, usually combined with a Ritual to start or continue a D4 chain.
3) Color fixing :r: into :b: (almost never happens)
4) 2 extra storm for zero net-mana (Pact+Cantor)
None of these scenarios happen very frequently individually, but together they happen enough that I include the card. It's also very randomly a beater if I open with it or rip it, but that has only happened to me a couple times.

Its less common in my experience to win with D4 chains after post-board. With more land, a D4 is usually relevant to your board state. For example if you just acquire a bunch of acceleration but no perpetual resources, then you are stuck, and you have to use ritual acceleration to cast your business. I prefer to hold on to the ritual acceleration if I can for IT or to play around Spell Pierce. Acquiring more and more rituals shuts off part of their countersuite (especially in Thresh's case) so even if you can't produce a D4 chain, you still produce a win off a successful D4, it just a long run win instead of a short run win; I prefer this tactic because having more perpetual resources means you'll be able to build up to a grinding position instead of waiting for ritual acceleration on less than 3 perpetual black mana. If your D4 gets countered, it still matters which cards you might have drawn. I'd prefer for those cards to include additional lands because it helps you get to that quinessential 3 black mana. If you can't get there, you can't really grind. SI might still have a savage enough topdeck for you to acquire a ritual and a business spell, but control decks have cantrips. I decided to run additional lands because I discovered that I won most of my games when I hit 3+ black mana and when I didn't, I lost. When I hit 5 mana, I turned off Spell Pierce, 4 mana, turned off Daze, etc. If you get luck with an early D4, you're already ahead of the game. Whether or not you can win off that D4 is irrelevant if you can produce a winning board state.

Also, lands aren't always terrible late game off D4s. If you're drawing multiples then yes, but if you just draw 1 in your D4 then its just +1 mana for whatever you're trying to do. Keep in mind that I board out Tendrils. Its way too difficult to sneak through a D4 and then actually play out 10 spells for a lethal Tendrils. For example, a D4 as the only spell you are casting with 0 cards in hand is very unlikely to produce a lethal spell chain. You need other resources in hand to get there consistently. This happens often.. too often for me to expect anything out of my D4s except resources and with a little luck, perhaps a second D4 and either a kill, tokens, or an unactivated Belcher.

I don't think you're opponent know how to play against Carpet of Flowers if thats all you need. Perhaps you haven't been playing it as long in your metagame as I have. I've been playing SI since like early '07; every one in my metagame knows exactly what I play and most of them I've had discussions with the deck. They either counter Carpet of Flowers if they have a heavy Island hand or they sandbag me on Carpet and it doesn't usually produce more than 2 mana. Against RUG they have Wasteland and Daze. Carpet is very weak there. You basically need lands to keep up with their disruption if they know how to play against you.

Yes RUG often plays Ancient Grudge but I haven't encountered it often. Most of the Tempo players are less familiar with how to play against Carpet/Belcher and friends. Its mostly the slower control players that know how to play against the grind plan.

I said its not often, they certainly do. If you read my last report, he Disenchants 1 Belcher and he blows up my Carpet to stop it from activating while I'm trying to kill him. But he's in topdeck mode and I had a Bayou + Carpet. Carpet died, then I drew into 2 lands to activate Belcher, with a D4 on the top if I needed another business spell in case he drew Snapcaster to flashback Disenchant.

PIF and EtW are only comparable in terms of deck/sb space. PIF is good against control because it doesn't return the opponent countermagic. Also, it has flashback so it forces the opponent to play 2 countermagic to stop it if you have enough perpetual resources to pay 6+ for Flashback and an initial ritual. On the same note, EtW has a better time against countermagic because it dodges everything but Flusterstorm. Granted, EtW needs a much larger number of resources to be a relevant business spell in hand while PIF needs cards in the graveyard to be relevant (whether or not you also cast them from your hand in the same turn as using PIF). All I was saying here is the previous configuration of PIF/Slithermuse is far worse than the IGG/EtW configuration.

When I played PIF I frequently ran into the problem of needing 6 mana for it to work and if only 6, then a Drit in the yard. 7 for a Crit. If that happened, then I was so over the top that just about any business spell would have worked in that scenario. Then there were other cases where my PIF was completely dead because I drew 0 ritual acceleration. So basically I was rarely impressed with it. It produced some absolutely nuts plays but they were rare and when playing with it most of the time I just wanted it to be a land. Then again this is when I played it in the maindeck.

In regards to graveyards and PIF vs. IGG. I was referring to that as a maindeck configuration. PIF wasn't good for me in the maindeck because I wanted to IGG loop with LED far too often. Most of the time, that would force me into Slithermuse instead, which wasn't bad but Slithermuse wasn't a guarenteed kill like IGG; however, Muse is a line of play thats an entire mana cheaper. But EtW > Muse anyway. My argument doesn't apply to it in the post-board because you don't want IGG post-board. Its entirely a pre-board config. argument.

I know you like your build, but I'd suggest testing an IGG in place of your second Tendrils. Its a safe card that gives you free wins with IT/LED loops. My list is basically the same as yours only I have -1 Tendrils, -1 Tinderwall, +1 IGG, +1 Trow. I haven't found too much use for Tinderwall without maindeck PIF so I dropped it from my build. How well has Slaughter Pact worked out for you? I'd imagine that includes EtWs and Taiga once you hit post-board against Maverick/DnT. Also, I was thinking for anyone who wants to play something like Slaughter Pact, Deathmark etc. you might as well just play Karakas. It bounces Thalia so you can go off, can be reused against Teeg or a replayed Thalia as well as not costing anything to cast at all while Pact still costs 1 under Thalia.

[Edit: I had some responses about the list that I removed. I think I shouldn't share my thoughts until after I've actually tested your list, regardless of what I think of it for now. As for the rest of your post,]

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Most of the Tempo players are less familiar with how to play against Carpet/Belcher and friends. Its mostly the slower control players that know how to play against the grind plan.

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It's funny you say this because I'm not really worried about the Tundra match-up, it's RUG that gives me problems. I usually beat Tundra.deck, whatever incarnation it may be. I would actually go so far as to call it a positive match-up post-board. Counterbalance is definitely a thing now, though, which can be hard to deal with.

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PIF and EtW are only comparable in terms of deck/sb space.

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They are totally incomparable. I cannot have a serious discussion that accepts the presupposition that they are comparable in any way, because I'm not willing to concede--even for a moment--that they fill similar roles in any context. They just don't. PiF is a Yawg. Will and EtW is the end of a storm spell chain.

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When I played PIF I frequently ran into the problem of needing 6 mana for it to work

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Carpet + LED is often enough. And that's one of the things I love about PiF: it can sometimes turn LED into an awesome draw when otherwise it would be lackluster.

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I know you like your build, but I'd suggest testing an IGG in place of your second Tendrils.

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No way! IGG sucks versus blue (casting it is a pseudo-concession if they have Force in the yard) and I don't need a card that's good against non-blue decks unless it deals with Thalia. Frankly it sounds like the very definition of "win-more"! As I've already mentioned, I've so rarely seen lines where IGG would be useful that I am not even close to running it.

...and I love the seconds Tendrils. If I have the first in my opening hand and I have to crack and LED then it's great to have that backup. It's also lovely to D4 into Tendrils and using the first to pitch to Chrome Mox is also quite nice. I ran 1x Tendrils for a long time but I simply lost too many games because I didn't have a second. Honestly I think 3x might be correct (for D4 chains, natch) but I like the maindeck EtW too much so I don't have the space.

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[IGG is] a safe card

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If I wanted to play safe cards I wouldn't be playing this deck ;) But really, IGG is not a "safe card" because it's usually suicide vs. blue. Vs. non-blue it's great, but why would I want a card against my already positive match-ups?

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My list is basically the same as yours only I have -1 Tendrils, -1 Tinderwall, +1 IGG, +1 Trow.

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Yes, where we seem to disagree is basically the sideboard. Main deck is fine, I could see running Trow again as well.

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I haven't found too much use for Tinderwall without maindeck PIF so I dropped it from my build.

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I started running Tinderwall because of maindeck PiF, but I kept it in because it produces 2 mana off Pact+:g: which is frequently extremely good for Belcher lines. T.Wall can also be a good "pass the turn ritual" in certain rare lines.

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How well has Slaughter Pact worked out for you?

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I think I already mentioned this in an earlier post, but it's bad. I don't like it. But I don't know what else to run because Deathmark is about the same (worse, even) and a 4-mana Virtue's Ruin under Thalia is a joke. I've tried various configurations and this is what I'm most comfortable with at the moment, but I am just waiting for Wizards to print something better for this slot.

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I'd imagine that includes EtWs and Taiga once you hit post-board against Maverick/DnT.

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Yes, I do board in EtW although frankly I haven't 100% figured out what cards to take out. Usually I start by shaving numbers of the Culling package but it's not clear to me what the correct plan is.

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Also, I was thinking for anyone who wants to play something like Slaughter Pact, Deathmark etc. you might as well just play Karakas.

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Ah, the Bryant Cook method. It's funny you mentioned this because I've also been considering it for awhile. I understand the reasoning (and I am actually a big supporter of using Karakas for this purpose in other decks) but it makes Belcher worse, I can't fetch them up with Land Grant, I've found lands to be bad rips off D4s, and colorless mana is mostly useless in this deck. But Slaughter Pacts sucks too, so...

I actually do plan to test this but I'm not optimistic. Plus the Thalia decks always run their own Karakas, and it's legendary.

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Pact still costs 1 under Thalia.

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Yeah but 1 is infinitely better than 2 (Deathmark) or 4 (Virtue's Ruin). Hell maybe I should just be running 3x Karakas. I think I will try that during my next testing session, I've been considering it for too long to not at least try it out.

UW (Tundra) control variants will usually be positive, yes, but only when your opponents are relatively unfamiliar with how PSI works. Once they get used to it in your local, you'll have to adapt. I've had to constantly adapt my board to retain the advantage in those matchups. I would also agree that its a positive matchup once we hit the post-board. We just have to get lucky and either race the Force early on Turn 1 (and win the die roll) or hope we have a Chrome Mox and/or a land in the opening hand to have any semblance of multiple combo attempts. Once you hit the post-board, you can expect a whole slew of hate cards including Disenchant (which interacts with Snapcaster), EE to blow up tokens or Carpet (its good to bait them to take out Carpet with EE and then play a bunch of tokens for the win), Needle on Belcher, and sometimes Meddling Mage (the other day naming Tendrils which I boarded out). When you also have to deal with these cards, playing the matchup can be tough when they know your deck well enough to pick the right cards on their cantrips and sculpt a hand that can deal with whatever you throw at them. Picking apart the grind plan can be tricky as playing with it though. Having a solid mana base that UW can't touch or fuck with has done well so far. I feel like its been the best adjustment I've made so far to deal with the veteran slow control players in my metagame who I've been playing against for a long time.

By the way, the effectiveness of your board is most easily discernable when you play the same matchup over and over again against the same player. Then he gets to learn how the grind plan works and once he's very familiar with it you can adapt the board accordingly. Thats what I did against a good friend of mine who's tested against countless board variations and maindeck variations to death. Easily more than 500 games including post-board. Initially, the post-board plan was beating the shit out of him, the undeveloped version because he didn't know how to play against it (probably 60/40 in my favor). Eventually, we were even and I had to adapt and I couldn't find a board variation that could consistently get me back to 60/40. Then he started beating me pretty consistently until I started playing the 4 land board. Before the 4 land board it was like a 30/70 matchup for PSI; awesome for BUG because they can blow up the board, Loam lock you out of lands, seal the game with Jace, play post-board Counterbalance to lock you out of the game, Top + fetch constantly to find countermagic. He's pretty good at sculpting the right hand so that he can deal with whatever I throw at him; however, I brought it back to like a 50/50 matchup against BUG with the 4 lands after around 10 games of testing (though I plan to test more pretty soon). When I ported this board from the BUG matchup (slow control) to the UW matchups, it was stellar. I was extremely comfortable opening with a land almost every game, and the only post-board match I lost against control lost me the set because he drew the royal flush of singletons (Karakas + Clique).



Lands help you in the RUG matchup but I don't know yet if they are the post-board best choice for the Tempo matchup. I know they are good against UW or BUG though. You actually need more perpetual resources against RUG than in the UW control matchups because UW doesn't play Wasteland often while its standard maindeck in RUG. Also, Daze makes Carpet less effective or sometimes negates it entirely. Before I ran lands, there were times I played against Merfolk (for example) and lost because I tried to ride a Carpet all the way to the finish. My opponent just sat on Wastelands and Mutavaults without playing a single Island the whole game. Didn't get a black source without it getting countered and just lost to lands. Same thing can happen against RUG only they Waste your land perps and then Daze to keep you off Carpet mana. Some people won't fall for CoF bullshit :P I probably just have to prepare for a different metagame because everyone knows my face.

I encounter hate specific to my deck now. For example, the Pox player I encountered last Thursday local, he had Engineered Plague for my Goblins, Needle for my Belcher, and plenty of discard to stop me from building into a lethal Tendrils. They only thing that saved me is that he went for Plague and Needle before starting to nuke my hand, so I was able to play IT from my hand naturally to find IGG. Without IGG this hand wouldn't have been possible and I wouldn't have had a way to win that game. IGG is far from win-more; it turns IT into a business spell instead of a 6 mana Tendrils/EtW at the tail end of a spell chain or a 9 mana Charbelcher. Without IGG, you need to have played a D4 or you're going for EtW. What happens when your hand is just mana + IT and you aren't running IGG maindeck? Do you play Belcher and pass? You might be exposing yourself to hate like QPM if you can't activate it in time. For example, if you have to wait til turn 3 after landing Belcher turn 1 because you can IT for 6 mana but not 7, then what do you do, make tokens? What if you're playing the combo matchup and they kill you before you can do anything? What about High Tide where they can early Tide for Cunning Wish and Echoing Truth your tokens? Shit happens man. IGG is a 'safe' card because it almost always turns IT + mana into a win without having to go through the motions of a D4 chain. Sometimes IT and mana is all you have access to. The extra Tendrils doesn't help you in this case unless you are chaining D4s together. Also, since I've added Cutter to the maindeck, IGG was a natural inclusion when hands in testing kept coming up where I was a spell shy of a kill with Tendrils because you need to hit 12 spells + ToA in a cutter line of play. IGG makes that possible quite often though IT-->IT-->IT-->Tendrils can happen too, it just costs more mana. IGG is easier. And its often more useful in your hand as the only business spell then ToA could be. Natural ToA from your hand might give you a comfortable lead in your life total against something like Goblins, perhaps putting you close to 30 or 34.. but IGG forces them into a mulligan to 3 while you get to return 3 cards as well.. like the best pieces of the acceleration that played IGG in the first place. Also, in the middle of a spell chain it can be just as effective as Tendrils unless you have exactly 4 mana left post-D4.. sometimes even more effective like if break LEDs after the first D4 into a bunch of floating black mana but you only draw ESG/Pacts, Petals, and only your choice of Tendrils or IGG. IGG would be better since the ESGs won't produce enough spells to give you a lethal Tendrils.

So just to bullet point the advantages of IGG to recap:
- Produces free wins with IT that don't involve D4 spell chains.
- IGG can pseudo-mind twist the opponent and cripple their game plan.
- IGG is often just as useful mid spell chain as Tendrils though each has its own advantage depending on scenario.


I think you miss the point though here: PIF and EtW are comparable because they are IT targets, and you only want so many because the deck is tight for space. One might be a Yawg Will while they other is an option kill condition, but they both happen because of IT more often than otherwise. Either way, I don't know why we are talking about this. IGG is comparable to PIF while EtW is comparable to Slithermuse because IGG and PIF are for looping business at an investment of 5 mana while EtW and Muse are business at 4 mana that don't require 10+ storm.

I think the Tinderwall line of play would involve playing it with a green source perpetual resource like a Bayou or something, then passing the turn and activating it. That is most certainly rare, and risky if you find it with Pact, pass and then activate in your upkeep unless you've already hit both lands. I don't know if this is relevant enough. Otherwise Pact + ESG is potentially producing GG mana. With Tinderwall it just produces RR. and you get to play 2 spells instead of just the Pact (removing 2 ESGs). I think the advantage of Trow/Slitherhead/Deathrite Shaman being cast of black rituals is indispensable, even with Cutter. Sometimes, you have to start with Arbor as your land and then you are cut off from Cutter and need a green source to play your creatures to feed to Culling. I think I'm going to wind up running Shaman since its going to be randomly really awesome outside of being culling fodder.

I'll go through my deck and try to remember what I take out for the Maverick matchup and get back to you. Though I'm guessing its usually just -2 Pact, -2 Culling, +3 Empty the Warrens, +1 Taiga. I've been fine without cutting the entire Culling package especially since you still keep some of the creatures in along with LG-->Arbor. But I don't know what to cut if you want to also board in something to directly deal with Thalia. I'd actually try going with something more premature like Thoughtseize over Duress if you encounter a lot of Thalia in your metagame.. or perhaps Unmask?



On IGG as a safe card (just responding to what you wrote relatively in order), its not good against blue, but Tendrils isn't much better in its place. For example, if either is an IT target, they just counter the IT. If either is cast naturally from the hand, why didn't they just counter the D4 instead? Its not a relevant card in the blue matchup unless you go straight for the throat with an IGG loop because they let IT resolve (ie. they don't have force) in which case its quite good if they can some how answer 8-14 tokens (say.. a lucky EE or they could stabilize with blockers, or even something like Prison effects (Elephant Grass) if you're playing against Enchantress). The real reason you run IGG is because its great in the combo mirror where you absolutely must produce a win on the same turn as IT and if its the only business spell in your hand and you don't have 9 mana total to play and activate Belcher, then you need to go for tokens and hope you can win the race.

I actually overlooked that fact that its relevant to the Belcher plan. Wow.. lol. Umm.. yeah probably not the best choice then unless you play a Belcher less build. Wow though, it will be a fantastic answer for Thalia in SITES, which completely lacks Belcher.



EDIT:
For the record, lolchan.. Kusumoto plays a completely different PSI config. than I do. I'd look into that one if you prefer to play more maindeck Tendrils. He piloted it to a solid 26th place at an SCG if I recall. That or it was just a huge event. I'm pretty sure he played a 3 Tendrils, 2 Belcher configuration, and then sided in 2 Belchers when grinding. I just prefer the Belchers because in most matchups you encounter either card, passing the turn with Belcher will get there. Even if you don't technically get the turn 1, you get inevitability and the pants shitting moment where you flip 20+ and your opponent curses WotC for not letting them play magic. Then, you also save sideboard space by not having to board in the extra Belchers. If you want to run the 3 Tendrils without cutting the Belchers, you'd have to either shave some of the Pact targets, or the business spells.

First off, it's "Lochlan", not "lolchan".

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Pact + ESG is potentially producing GG mana. With Tinderwall it just produces RR.

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Yeah I'm not sure what I was thinking here, that was pretty dumb. Obviously Summoner's Pact into ESG is the same amount of mana.
But Tinder Wall does net mana if drawn naturally. And if I have to color fix into red for EtW off of Summoner's Pact I can produce RR from a Tinder Wall instead of just R from a Wild Cantor. It also does generate an additional storm count. It has some good utility despite my error.

And as for the pass the turn thing I have done it before, both off of Summoner's Pact and drawing Tinder Wall naturally. It's definitely risky to activate Belcher with lands still in the deck and a lose-the-game trigger on the stack but it's sometimes an acceptable risk. If there's one land, depending on how many cards are in the deck it's something like a 14% risk of losing, which are odds I am comfortable risking a lot of the time.

In any event I just don't see the lines with Trow enough to run it and I guess I was thinking about the EtW thing with Tinder Wall? Honestly the times when I need anything other than Cutter, Arbor, or ESG are so rare and the other guys are usually just "Culling lamb for :g:" so frequently that running one over the other probably doesn't matter that much. You may be right, maybe Trow (well, Deathrite Shaman now I guess) is better. I can't really argue my point futher because I don't have numbers to back it up or anything, I just recall wanting Tinder Wall way more frequently than Trow.

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I'd actually try going with something more premature like Thoughtseize over Duress if you encounter a lot of Thalia in your metagame

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I suggested this earlier in the thread myself. The idea might have merit but of course does nothing for the situations where Thalia has resolved. How to deal with Thalia is a big problem for all storm decks, though, really, and I don't think anybody has come up with a perfect plan yet.

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On IGG as a safe card (just responding to what you wrote relatively in order), its not good against blue, but Tendrils isn't much better in its place.

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If I have four mana at the end of a D4 chain, I want to cast a Tendrils, not IGG with no mana floating :) And I really, really don't want to cut myself off Tendrils if I have to discard/exile it through some kind of LED/Chrome Mox play (I don't have a Burning Wish to fall back on and a singleton will be in your opener over 10% of the time). Even beyond personally not liking IGG, really for only these two reasons I simply have to have at least 2x Tendrils in the deck. If I want to add another business spell I consider the only real available slot to be cutting a creature from the Culling package, but so far I have regretted that every time I try it.

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Kusumoto plays a completely different PSI config. than I do. I'd look into that one if you prefer to play more maindeck Tendrils. He piloted it to a solid 26th place at an SCG if I recall.

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Yeah it's only a few pages back, really. I actually just watched his feature match again the other day. He definitely played 3 Tendrils and Unmask. I remember not liking his board, I think he was only running 3x Carpet of Flowers or something.

Edit: Urgh, my questions were already answered by reading further back, not much to see here - other than a new face in the SI family.

What's the "cheapest" SI build? I already have the LEDs and Therapies :tongue:

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Originally Posted by sherko7

What's the "cheapest" SI build? I already have the LEDs and Therapies :tongue:

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I don't think I would dare play anything but PSI. If you're really budget, I think belcher might be easier to assemble than getting your hands on 4 Cruel Bargain.

Played at my local tonight, going 3-1 for 3rd place, dropping one round to a great RUG Tempo player.

R1 – Maverick
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Tendrils
Game 2: Turn 1, I'm one spell short of Tendrils in the IGG loop so Empty the Warrens for 18 tokens gets there.
2-0

R2 – Dredge
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Belcher
Game 2: Mull to 4, win turn 3 on the play.
2-0

R3 – RUG Tempo
This guy is a good player and he has a dope sideboard.
Game 1: He had the nuts draw; Force + Ponder, Spell Snare and Daze on the play. I can play around Spell Pierce but he Spell Snares and I can’t recover through 2 countermagic with his fast clock.
Game 2: I get an early Carpet and he plays a bunch of fetches without cracking them. He wastes a Bayou and then I get another down with an early Chrome Mox. He counters my first D4 and then he Stifles three of my Carpet triggers while playing creatures. I manage to sneak through Empty the Warrens when he’s tapped out for a mere 6 tokens but he has Rough/Tumble to wipe my board. I had played an ESG so I could have traded with each of his creatures, basically putting the board at a standstill, but the Rough/Tumble wiped my entire board so I lost. However, I did have a lethal Belcher coming if I had just one more turn. Close game, but he had the nuts and the sideboard to beat Empty the Warrens.
0-2

R4 – Death and Taxes
Game 1: Turn 1 lethal Belcher
Game 2: I board lazily AND I keep a very risky 7. Kicking myself after this game.
Game 3: I chain 3 D4s together into IT for Cabal Ritual, into Cabal Ritual x2 threshed into a lethal Tendrils turn 1.
2-1

So overall I went 3-1.

With the exception of the DnT game I goldfished well for not playing at all for 3 weeks. In the non-U games I got 4 turn 1 kills out of 7 games so roughly 60% turn 1 kills, and then there was a game where I completely blew it against DnT and a game where I got tokens for inevitability against Maverick. I wasn’t happy with my games against RUG, obviously game 1 is just a dice roll but he got killer hands in both games and a damn good sideboard against me so I should have lost that one.

I also picked up a Deathrite Shaman to replace Odious Trow. It looks pretty beast and I actually want to keep it in against RUG since its good at shrinking Goyf and Goose.

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
I ran ill gotten, 3 belcher, 2 tendrils and 1 empty(2 sb)
Sb was 4 carpet, 4 duress, 1 taiga, 2 abrupt decay, 2 inquisition(weren't Spanish :'-( ), 2 empty

Round 1
Pretty nice guy who I know is on rug delver, he plays it every week and he knows what I'm playing so I figure he will mull to a force and daze.
He wins the die roll and leads w fetch, tropical, delver, pass
I go for it, the whole time leaving up daze mana in the form of esg or pact.
His nickname is known among the players bc of his sad demeanor but he looked especially sad when I was comboing off. I go for belcher, it stays, I can either go for it w arbor still on the deck and him at 19 or LG for it this turn and go off next turn if I rip a source. I go for it and he scoops before I reveal.
Game 2: I board in everything minus 1 empty and 2 decay.
I keep Drit, Crit, IT, Led, LG, carpet, esg. I LG into carpet and he removes force to force it. 4 turns and 3 donothings later,
I somehow manage to empty for 12 followed by tendrils for 14. I'm at 24, he is at 3. He scoops and shows me the 4 electrickey in his board he forgot to board in. I tell him about game 1 and we joke. He says next time he wants to see it and I tell him I will show him ;).

Round 2
This trolling mofo who I know is playing know and tell.
He knows my deck bc everyone saw me play it and was fascinated with it.
I win the roll and turn 2 belcher him. Before we side he shows me force and blue card and jokes about how he was greedy with his forces.
Game 2: I side in the blue plan. He turn 2 SnT griselbrand and I scoop.
Game 3: I choose to draw and keep a shitty 6 that ends in 14+ storm and a timely trickbind.

Round 3
A nice guy that is a dedicated DnT player. F*ck thalia.
Game 1: I win die roll. Tendrils wins game turn 1.
Game 2: he leads fetch, scrub, IoK, pass. I rebuttle with lethal tendrils.
F*ck thalia.

Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.
Game 2: he says ok, I think I got you this game. I say show me the money. Chants me on upkeep. He then plays city of traitors, 3sphere.
Arbor takes 4 turns to surface, I attack 5 times, he is at 13. After much scroll racking and topping, he entreats for 6 off the top.
Game 3: I keep a shaky 6, he shows me chant and 3sphere and tells me, let's are you win this.
I combo off but don't have lethal tendrils so I grab a d4 off the IT. I have nothing but a petal on the field and the four cards off the top.
I get Crit, led, Crit and I show him that I can't win and he says let's see the last card, I pull a led and
Lament over how my d4 landed me Crit, Crit, led, IT with only a petal down.

2-2 sad panda. Overall I am happy but I wanna try a mox opal in the deck and see how it goes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
...
Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.

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This sounds like he already presented, then found out he had an illegal SB, in which case he should have gotten a game loss, corrected his SB, and you'd go to Game 2 with no sideboarding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

So bi monthly legacy win a box.
I ran ill gotten, 3 belcher, 2 tendrils and 1 empty(2 sb)
Sb was 4 carpet, 4 duress, 1 taiga, 2 abrupt decay, 2 inquisition(weren't Spanish :'-( ), 2 empty

Round 1
Pretty nice guy who I know is on rug delver, he plays it every week and he knows what I'm playing so I figure he will mull to a force and daze.
He wins the die roll and leads w fetch, tropical, delver, pass
I go for it, the whole time leaving up daze mana in the form of esg or pact.
His nickname is known among the players bc of his sad demeanor but he looked especially sad when I was comboing off. I go for belcher, it stays, I can either go for it w arbor still on the deck and him at 19 or LG for it this turn and go off next turn if I rip a source. I go for it and he scoops before I reveal.
Game 2: I board in everything minus 1 empty and 2 decay.
I keep Drit, Crit, IT, Led, LG, carpet, esg. I LG into carpet and he removes force to force it. 4 turns and 3 donothings later,
I somehow manage to empty for 12 followed by tendrils for 14. I'm at 24, he is at 3. He scoops and shows me the 4 electrickey in his board he forgot to board in. I tell him about game 1 and we joke. He says next time he wants to see it and I tell him I will show him ;).

Round 2
This trolling mofo who I know is playing know and tell.
He knows my deck bc everyone saw me play it and was fascinated with it.
I win the roll and turn 2 belcher him. Before we side he shows me force and blue card and jokes about how he was greedy with his forces.
Game 2: I side in the blue plan. He turn 2 SnT griselbrand and I scoop.
Game 3: I choose to draw and keep a shitty 6 that ends in 14+ storm and a timely trickbind.

Round 3
A nice guy that is a dedicated DnT player. F*ck thalia.
Game 1: I win die roll. Tendrils wins game turn 1.
Game 2: he leads fetch, scrub, IoK, pass. I rebuttle with lethal tendrils.
F*ck thalia.

Round 4
Win and in time for top 4, first chance so I figure it time to go big.
I'm playing a guy from my home town who was playing this interesting deck.
Land tax, scroll rack, top, lotus vale, chants, terminus, entreat, trinisphere.
Game 1: he mulls to 6, realizes his sb is still in. Fixes it, goes to 5. I'm first. IGG saves my ass. I win. Tendrils.
Game 2: he says ok, I think I got you this game. I say show me the money. Chants me on upkeep. He then plays city of traitors, 3sphere.
Arbor takes 4 turns to surface, I attack 5 times, he is at 13. After much scroll racking and topping, he entreats for 6 off the top.
Game 3: I keep a shaky 6, he shows me chant and 3sphere and tells me, let's are you win this.
I combo off but don't have lethal tendrils so I grab a d4 off the IT. I have nothing but a petal on the field and the four cards off the top.
I get Crit, led, Crit and I show him that I can't win and he says let's see the last card, I pull a led and
Lament over how

I will finish it later. Battery is dying.

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Good shit beating up on RUG. Against Show and Tell you want to board much differently. They don't play many islands and are mostly countermagic light. Also, because its a combo deck, you can count an opponent who is willing to risk his ass on a fast combo win rather than a slow protected win. So perhaps board in your disruption and thats all. Then you'll still have a relatively fast clock but with protection to fuck with the opponents combo pieces. Otherwise, you could go with pre-board and race him. In round 4, yeah thats some shitty luck that you ran into a guy with Chants and 3sphere. Thats basically the worst kind of non-U opponent you could encounter; lock pieces + instant speed disruption. If what ESG was talking about happened then perhaps he wouldn't have even known what you were playing going into game 2.. Anyway, I'm confused about Game 3. If you don't have a lethal Tendrils off IT did you not have the red source to go for EtW? Also, if its turn 1, IGG isn't a terrible play here either. You get back the 3 most important cards and your opponent is forced into a 3 card hand. IT into blind D4 with X floating never gets there. I don't ever make that line of play. If you have like 1 floating, IGG is better, if you have a LED, EtW. If you have played Pact, then yeah you basically have to go for the D4 but its rare that it will produce a win.

@ESG: the ruling is that if you have yet to resolve a mulligan and realize your sb is still in, the right thing to do is state it, de side and mull down 1.
@vacrix: droopy(rug player) kept shaky hands and didn't see a force either game so I got off lucky.
And I didn't empty bc I absolutely had to start w a pact to start going. My opponent showed me plains, city, chant, 3sphere after we resolved mulls and said let's see you masturbate.

Also I was wondering about mox opal as a one of. Has it been tested and to what results?

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Also I was wondering about mox opal as a one of. Has it been tested and to what results?

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Mox Opal is fantastic as a 2-of in my robot build, but that's with 21-22 artifacts not including the Opals. I'd be scared to run it with fewer artifacts, so doubt it'd fit PSI well.

Alrighty. Thanks. I am just curious. I want this deck to become better and more consistant so I figure all ideas are up for consideration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

Alrighty. Thanks. I am just curious. I want this deck to become better and more consistant so I figure all ideas are up for consideration.

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Absolutely. I'm just letting you know that even with 21+ artifacts supporting Mox Opal, I feel like I'm cutting it close.
My build really needs Opal to increase potential initial mana sources, so it's a calculated risk.
PSI has initial mana plays that are unavailable in my build, like ESG-->Pact-->Wild Cantor for black mana, so it's probably not necessary to take a risk on Opal.

Anyway, feel free to test it and report back. I'd love to be wrong:wink: