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Congrats and thanks for the report, a nice read:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
I believe MD Blood Moon is the way to go considering the prevalence of Mavericks and Tempo blues. I am not comfortable with only 6 cantrips though, especially since you board out Intuitions very often. It seems that in the games you lost, extra Ponders could have helped you digging into the right cards, be it lands or sneaky pieces.
Awesome! Thank you so much!Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
Going down on Intuitions and (often) boarding them out after game 1 seems like the right way to go.
About going down on cantrips: I think it's possible, because we just need to assemble our combo of cheater and Griselbrand to basically automatically win the game, since he will "cantrip" enough to finish it off. And I don't see anything else to cut for the main Blood Moons. So cutting 1 Intuition, 2 Ponder seems logical, I will definitely test Jaco's build.
(Matchup analysis coming soon :cool:)
I do not agree. Cantrips should find either combo pieces, lands or protection and since you have to mulligan a lot it is crucial to smooth out draws. If you decide to play blood moon main, I would cut protection for it since that is also what you would proably put in the board instead of blood moon. Also blood moon will often eat a counterspell and can therefore be better compared to spell pierce/flusterstorm/misdirection.
I can also imagine going down to 3 sneak attack since playing blood moon first should give you some more time for the combo.
Blue count is a consideration playing 4 FoW, 3 Misdirection. Not less than 22, 23, 24? I would opt to go on the save side. Blood moon not pitching is surely a disadvantage.
I also disagree with cutting down on cantrips, the deck is luck-dependent enough as it is and it seems less cantrips would make it more risky.
On day I 1-3'ed the legacy challenge side-event since every time I kept a hand with half of the combo + diggers I failed to find the other half. Day 2 I added 1 Griselbrand to the deck (61 cards), going up to 8 each of both halves of the combo, and was a bit more successful digging for answers, most of my game losses were not due to failure to find a combo piece.
I did not play vs Maverick at all in this event so I have no opinion on the necessity of MD blood moon against this deck. Against RUG however, I'm fairly sure that G1 is in our favor so md BM is not needed and I would rather have the extra counters. Postboard against ALL decks, I would definitely always take out intuition. Both of my match losses were due to one card, 'Extirpate'. Against this card, Griselbrand is not quite as strong unless you're at high life and can get a SA into play and team with Emrakul to swing for the win, and Intuition spells 'I lose'.
Oh and also, although I didn't keep hardly any notes, I remember bits and pieces so if anybody has questions I hope to help. Inexperience on my part in playing this deck led to a couple of misplays otherwise I think T8 was a distinct possibility :) Thank you all for this thread, which gave me the deck idea, sb cards, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
One question: You mulliganed like 9 out of 10 times and still feel comfortable with running 19 lands? You mentioned most of the time that you struggled with your manabase or mulliganed away land-light hands? Wouldnt it be a logic conclusion to up your count of lands? Maybe by one Volcanic Island? Then youd play my manabase :)
Greetings
I thought about playing another basic Island, but I think the manabase is OK. Some of the time I was mulliganing either because of no lands or more often because my hands would be something like 2 lands, all 4 Sneak Attacks, and a Spell Pierce. Weird hands like that are auto-mulls, and I was getting many of them early (less of them late). Against the RUG Delver deck they were land light mulligans. If the metagame stays like it was this past weekend I would probably play the same manabase that I did in Madison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
I would like to know if Flusterstorm did anything for you that Spell Pierce didn't. And how was Leyline of the Void? Did you encounter any graveyard-based decks and did you mull down to the Leyline there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dresden
What would you change in your list if you played the deck again?
My buddy Alex and I played the exact same deck day 1, except he had 3 pierces and I had 3 flusterstorms. Day 2 he ran with pierces as well and I was partially convinced by him to split into 2 flusterstorm, 1 pierce. Afterwards we both agreed, irrespective of our results that some number of flusterstorms is better than pierces.
Throughout the weekend I never found a reason to use spell pierce and the couple of times I drew it it wasn't relevant. I think about the only cards relevant for pierce vs flusterstorm are Jace, Liliana, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge...pretty short list right? With 12 counters in the deck, if I lose a counterwar and they land a planeswalker then I still have a chance to Sneak in and bash face. If Humility/Ensnaring Bridge lands, well GG but I think our matchup against that archetype should be fairly good due to a slow clock and our natural number of counters.
My main reason for Flusterstorm vs pierce just came down to just a better matchup against combo. If you have flusterstorm vs pierce, the matchup against combo improves - storm, high tide, dreams halls, etc. and it is more likely that you can win counterwars against control decks.
Quick summary on what I played against:
R1: Affinity, 2-1
R2: RUG, 2-1 - lost G1 to triple counters
R3: BUG, 2-1 - very close game and I might have lost this one if opponent didn't get a game loss G1 for accidentally playing with 59 cards.
R4: Stoneblade, 2-1
R5: RUG, 2-0
R6: Nic Fit, 1-2 - extirpate ftl
R7: RUG, 0-2 - extirpate ftl, I'm an idiot landing griselbrand instead of emrakul..
R8: High Tide, 2-0
I didn't get to play against maverick nor dredge so no idea on how good the leyline of the void would have worked out. The only matchup I would have boarded it against among my opponents was High Tide, and I may have misboarded G2 by not bringing them in but I got lucky and won anyways.
As for what changes I would make in the future, not sure man - I got most of my ideas from you guys :) I was debating cutting intuition as well and eagerly read all the arguments to and for it in this thread but ultimately decided to run 2 MD since it slightly increases the number of keepable hands. I found myself mulliganing a fair amount throughout the weekend and not having to mulligan as much may have produced better results (I mulliganed to a not-really-keepable-5 cards in both R6 and R7 in losing to RUG and NicFit).
P.S. I just read Drew's article on how to beat RUG on SCG, mentioning SneakShow! I agree that our manabase is a bit tough and like Jaco says, keeping a hand with more lands is often not a bad idea. I do think that our RUG matchup is pretty good though, esp G1 where landing emrakul is generally game. I didn't lose to wasteland/stifle the whole weekend except for when I intentionally ran a fetch into a stifle to prevent it being used for the more important sneak attack next turn although this may be attributed to T1-Delver RUG players. It probably also helped that I always fetched for basics - most games I never fetched for volc island.
It is a really bad batchup and there is not a lot we can do to change that. If we would have a positive matchup against a hardcore control deck with counterbalance, counterspells and many lockpieces we would break the format. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dresden
I tested A LOT against my buddy plaing this deck and g1 was slightly in our favour because as you said we have more counterspells. G2 he brings in 9 cards including needle, canonist, more counterspells, surgical extraction,... and from then on you have maybe a 30% chance to win a game. You basically only win if you have a strong draw and they have to mull to a weak hand.
Against other counter-top thopters lists I played online, even the first game was already negative. They played trinket-mage/needle and Terminus MD. They can also make a simple play like EOT e. tutor to blank our show&tell.
I was looking for them as well and found them: http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/1...egacy-coverageQuote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Nicolas Crepelle from France just made it into Top 8 at Bazaar of Moxen in France under 723 buddies with this:
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
1 Progenitus
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
SIDEBOARD :
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
No Dazes and Leylines, Magus of the Moon instead of Blood Moon. Only 2 Intuitions. Looking forward for a hopefully coming report.
http://www.watchdamatch.com/Articles...NT-LEGACY.html
JPAnghelescu went 7-2 according to my information. As that's all I heard so far I am also looking forward to his list and report. :)
I went 4:1 in my local tourney today winning me a Scrubland.
The list:
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition
3 Lotus Petal
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
3 Blood Moon
Round 1: 2:0 vs. monored burn.
Quick S&T in both games. Misdirecting a bolt to a Figure of Destiny to buy time in G2.
No board since opponent does not board, so Intuitions can stay in.
Round 2: 2:0 vs. my buddy with counter-top thopters
Pretty bad matchup since he is running humility/ensnaring bridge main, but I had very strong draws.
G1: Very good hand: Sneak attack, Emrakul and tons of counters. After wiping his board he quickly finds new lands with SD.top and I have to counter an ensnaring bridge 3 times due to his Academy Ruins before I finnally find a 2nd creature.
G2: He wins a counter war over a canonist. Oblivion rings my first sneak attack. Second sneack attack is answered by e. tutor for pithing needle, but I have the bounce spell in hand. Wiping his board with emrakul he again lands the needle for sneak attack next turn, but I draw S&T for my Griselbrand
Boarding: -2 Intuition, -1 Lotus Petal, +1 Redblast +2 Echoing Truth
Round 3: 2:0 vs. Reanimator
G1: Opponent mulls to 5, looses counter war over entomb and gets sneak-attacked.
G2: let him entom band blow out the reanimation spell with Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction, Force of Will in hand. Sneak attack soon afterwards.
Boarding: -3 Show & Tell, -3 Lotus Petal, -1 Intuition, - 1 Emrakul, -1 Griselbrand, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Grafdiggers Cage, +2 Echoing Truth, + 2 Blood Moon
Round 4: 1:2 vs. UW Stoneblade
PLayed against this build before. Straight UW with 4 Wastelands more counterspells main and 3 canonist, 2 Pithing needle in the SB.
G1: Quick S&T with 2 counterspells backup
G2: Mull to 6. Keep a hand with 2 animals no cantrips and draw 3 Griselbrand for a quick loose.
G3: questionable keep of 7: 4 lands, 1 FoW, 1 Flusterstorm 1 Sneak Attack. Not having the cantrip hurt a lot since I just draw lands. I force his needle and he resolves a canonist with some counterspells in hand.
Boarding: -2 Intuition, -1 Lotus Petal, +1 Redblast ,+2 Echoing Truth
Round 5: 2:0 vs UR Burn
Combo off quick both games facing only 1 counterspell each game.
Conclusion: Loved it! Had a pretty good run though except for the 2 games versus UW Stoneblade I lost. I am boarding out intuitions a lot becuase of extractions and feel every hand with a cantrip has a lot more value. Therefore possible changes: -1 pierce or flusterstorm +1 Preordain and since there is a ton of UW in the meta +1 Red-blast, -1 Surcigal in the SB.
Instead of Blood Moon, I think we should really tryout Cursed Totem in our SBs, because I have been play testing Cursed Totem vs Maverick on Cockatrice lately and it has completely neutered most of their threat base.
Thing is, Blood Moon stops Karakas, which is really the most dangerous thing that they have against us; Cursed Totem does stop their creatures but with Emrakul and Griselbrand we should quite easily race their threats anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
@Catmint: Congratulations on the great finish :D I'm gonna go down to 2 Intuition as well now, feels like the better number
catmint: How do you feel with 3 Misdirection? Isn`t it a little over the top? I would rather cut a Misdirection than a U Counterspell. And how do you feel about 3 petals? Isnt it minimizing the chances for SneakAttack into Griselbrand into Emrakul? I wouldnt leave home without these playset of Petals.
And once again I have to critizice the manabases you all seem to run, heres the one I do run:
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
6 Island
Whats the difference? First of all you guys play 1-4 more Fetchlands, on cost of 1 Sol-Land and Islands. Some of you add even a 4th Volcanic. First of all you open yourself to mana-denial strategies, speaking of Canadian. Its been quite a fair-good matchup, but if you run a manabase like this itll be getting considerable worse. On the other hand it may lead to a two-side-blow-out when you land a Blood Moon from a Ancient Tomb + Volcanic Island. Guys like you play 2-4 Islands. How are you going to find them? I play 6 and therefore its pretty easy to find some Islands in order to win the game. I would really beg all of you to reconsider your structure of the manabase!
Greetings
I love the 3 Misdirections. The reason why I rather want to cut a Pierce than a misdirection for the Preordain is that I often cannot use the pierce because the mana is tight AND because it is often the case that you have something like: S&T, Griselbrand, FoW, Misdirection, Ponder; Spell Pierce. Pondering for an additional land and an additional blue card to have 3 counterspells backup is worse than just going for it much earlier with 2 hard counters I think. The misdirection is also supergood versus edict/discard and at redirection burn to the face from UR/Burn/Rug to a creature.
Concerning the manabase:
Good Point on the 4th Volcanic. An Island would be better imo.
However I don't like your manabase very much. The fetchlands are super important to get more value out of brainstorm so 7 is the minimum. You have to know how to play versus stifle decks and there will be situations where you are forced to play right into stifle but that is a much less bigger concern that the overall utility of brainstorm/fetchland. Also with only 8 red sources, did you had the problem of not getting red mana?
3 vs. 4 Petals is close imo, but the consideration is not that I cannot win in the same turn with sneak attack/Griselbrand because I am missing 1 petal. I just pass the turn with a full hand hope to win the next turn. The situations where this is relevant are rather rare. I think the 20th land or the 11th counterspell are more valuable than the 4th Petal.
2 to 4 Islands seems to be the average with 2 to 3 Volcanic. Despite Stifle, around 8 fetchlands are needed since red is vital to one half of the combo and after board. Trying to find double red mana on the same turn for Sneak is easier as well. Ponder and Brainstorm are harder to abuse, Preordain might be better in a list with less fetchlands.
Grisslebrand has made the deck even better having 2 top 8's in Bazzar Of Moxen and the recent SCGs event.
I made 51. of 723 at the Bazaar, losing the first 2 rounds against decks I didn't expect to be played (merfolk one of them...), and winning the next 7. I didn't play Sneak Show, but my own Show and Tell build, since I saw A LOT of Sneak Show and wanted to improve my mirror match.
I will write more as soon as I got some sleep and recovered from 4 days of non-stop Magic. :wink:
This is what I'm considering playing at a gpt next week and the scg in worcester
CREATURES 8
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
SPELLS 28
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Intuition
ARTIFACTS 4
4 Lotus Petal
LANDS 20
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
SIDEBOARD
3 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 REB
3 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroclasm
I've been playing without city of traitors up until now. What is the optimal way to utilize CoT?