Sadistic Sacrament > Bitter Ordeal
A vintage staple, and also quite nice against any combo deck.
The other way to stop natural order is to keep them off 4 mana or a creature or with the edicts already in your board.
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Sadistic Sacrament > Bitter Ordeal
A vintage staple, and also quite nice against any combo deck.
The other way to stop natural order is to keep them off 4 mana or a creature or with the edicts already in your board.
BBB, even with Mox Diamond, seems like a bit of a stretch to pull of consistently on turn 3. Also, who suggested Bitter Ordeal as a potential SB card?
Also, in those Vintage decks that run Sacrament, you'll also find tutors (Rock runs none) and XXX color mana accelerants like Black Lotus, Dark Ritual whereas Rock runs Mox Diamond and hopes it gets the right confirguration of lands/fetchlands to make BBB work. Seems really iffy.
I dont know about your build, but every mana source in my deck except 1 plains and 1 Karakas make black mana. Should be reliable.
I main 3-4 basics in all my builds, and play anywhere from 2-4 Wastelands depending. If you're able to consistently hit BBB by turn 3, more power to you, but many builds are running more than a singleton basic and more than a singleton colorless mana producing nonbasic. Look at Eli's 2nd place list for reference; many, many builds are running a similar manabase (fiddle with the exact number of Wasteland, etc, but overall, it's very similar).
Yeah i forgot about wastelands.
My list is here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Rock/page36
still 16 black sources though.
if you want combohate i would suggest extra duress + extirpate in the board (but only if you are running the 10 discardspells MD), otherwise i would suggest leyline of sanctity or maybe gaddock teeg as well
I count 15 black sources and 8 non-black sources, not including Mox Diamond. 15/8 allows you to hit BBB on turn 3? That doesn't sound right to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
In testing so far for me Bitter Ordeal has been more reliable. Not just because of the casting cost, but also because of gravestorm. I assume I am playing this right, but I have been victim of a force several times, and the opponent doesn't realize that the gravestorm still triggers the copies. So essentially I've looked at it like I can play the Sacrament or the Ordeal, both cards almost do the same thing, however the Ordeal has a leg up against blue decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
The problem with Bitter Ordeal against NOShow is that you really only have fetches and Wastelands to create gravestorm triggers (I suppose Knight of the Reliquary helps with this). If you go turn three fetch into Bitter Ordeal, and they Spell Pierce/FoW a copy, you get to remove one Progenitus--effectively doing nothing. If it were an instant, it would be much better, because you could play it in response to Natural Order and blow them out, but alas, it's not. I think the best way to combat NOShow is extra hand disruption in the board (either that or some weird, narrow cards like Tariff/Sudden Spoiling/Wing Shards) and playing Karakas + 4 Knight main for the SnT plan. Unfortunately Edict effects aren't the best because of all the mana dudes they run, in addition to fetch --> Dryad Arbor.
I've talked about this before, and I still run it in my current build, but are people reconsidering an E. Tutor board plan? It sure would be nice to be able to tutor for an O. Ring when facing a minty fresh Emrakul on the other side of the table.
I think you are probably right. I really like all 3 card choices you present. Wing Shards would be very good against Goblins as well, and might take the spot of my Engineered Plagues as that slot could serve double duty against both Goblins and NOShow.Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw712
Wing shards doesn't stop Emrakul's annihilator from wrecking you. I think hand disruption, MD karakas and mana wrecking is the way to go. If they draw their god hands, there's nothing much that can be done though. A disruption suit MD like this:
4 Seize
4 Hymm
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Vindicate
should be ok with a SB of:
3 Duress
That being said, there's nothing you can do against a topdeck NO other than trying to cut them off mana. Topdecking a Show and Tell + Emmy is more difficult so I'd say the best way is to attack the mana.
On another note, I've had alot of success with Phyrexian Revoker in decks that play equipment. For the guys that run Stoneforge Mystic + equipment package, what do you think about revoker? It has been ridiculously useful for me so far (even more so than Pridemage) due to the fact that it can name Planeswalkers (LED too). Naming mana bears also seems to be useful against all the Nobles running around. The body is not amazing, but with equipment, could be pretty relevant.
revoker is also perish - proof.
@ Goblins
They're being played, but they just can't beat Emrakul, and their Warren Weirdings are mostly in the board or get countered. I think the meta is shifting to more the way Iona used to be. You need to be able to deal with a big fatty or die immediately.
Spell Pierce should get infinitely better now, as should Blood Moon, Perish, Sirocco, etc. Well, maybe not Sirocco, but you know what I mean :P
Also, Needle on Candelabra is pretty tech.
-Matt
Revoker is really good right now (needle main). Walkers, Candelabra (like sdematt mentioned), KOTR, Grim Lavamancer etc. @ the Goblins vs Show and Tell MU, it's quite difficult for SNT-NO actually. It's close to 50/50. I tested with the 4 Warren Weirding, 2 Gempalm, 2 Stingscourger version (no warmarshalls). Manadudes get killed by gempalms and Warren Weirding. Wastelands and ports make 4 mana really hard to achieve.
Against Show and Tell, when they cast that, I just drop a SGC or stingscourger, or I matron for a stingscourger. Goblins is actually one of the harder MUs since they have such a quick clock and Show and Tell actually assists them in Killing you the turn after you SNT.
Agree with ivan. Stingscourger is money.
@ Arsenal
A tutor-board could be viable, I'll try to draft something up tomorrow. See, I don't ignore you :)
-Matt
My board typically looks like this
4 Leyline (white or black, depending on what I think I'll be facing)
3 E Tutor
Then you have 8 flex spots to run stuff like O Ring, Dueling Grounds, Choke, Runed Halo, Wheel of Sun and Moon, etc (the 8 flex spots will vary depending on what Leyline you ran). In a shifting meta of "I have 1-2 bombs in my deck, answer them now", an E Tutor plan seems versatile and able to handle Goblins (Dueling Grounds) to NOShow (O Ring, Runed Halo naming Progenitus).
*In Archon voice* The pimping is complete...
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0176.jpg
Just received the last one in the mail, and also cracked the BGS 7.5 out of the case. Wewt!
-Matt
You need a sharpie to fix them boarders..