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First time poster here, I was just curious how this deck's match up is against the goblin welder MUD builds that have been running around as of late. I may be playing at GP indy with a GBr version of the deck and I've not had any time to test against it yet.
What do you most want to call with a Therapy? I'm kinda assuming Forgemaster, but I really have no idea.
Thanks!
Zagan
A few months back when Delver was all the rage I had Swords to Plowshares in my list, but I've found that Delver is usually the only thing I really care about Swords'ing. Rector->Deed/Moat, Pulse/Vindicate, Garrukx3, and a bunch of things that are just plain bigger than your average legacy dork are all sufficient answers to creature-based threats. The only real thing that Swords hits that I can't currently deal with well is manlands, but that's a minor enough concern that it doesn't even register. If Delver decks made a sudden reappearance, I'll probably end up putting Swords back in (as well as Master of the Wild Hunt). For now, though, I'm perfectly content without them.
As far as Therapy vs Metalworker, if you're on the play, hit their acceleration. Grim Monolith is my favorite call, followed closely by Metalworker itself. If you're on the draw, probably Forgemaster or Wurmcoil is your best bet, since they'll have spewed their accel already. Although, if you're on the draw and they went like Seat of the Synod->Voltaic Key->go, then by all means still name Monolith. Hitting their Monoliths is the single best way to cripple that deck.
I was just about to give up on white, then I read your list. I have to got to get my hands on more rectors. I only have one, and I haven't really done much with her. How was Elspeth for you? Too slow? Did you ever miss Grave Titan? And lastly, did you you ever want sylvan library (as opposed to arena)?
Elspeth is a solid answer and threat to a lot of situations, and while she's amazing in general, she's in the list for the specific reason of having a non-creature repeatable source of giving wincon flying, for the times when you're sitting behind Moat and they've dealt with most of your flyers, and you can't kill you Moat due to their board presence. It's not a common occurrance, but as I said, she's a solid card on her own, so it doesn't hurt to use a slot for "insurance," so to speak.
I have never missed Grave Titan. I tried him a few times, and he just didn't do it for me. My list isn't as much raw power as tech -- I want my dudes to actually -do- things, as opposed to turn right and smashy smashy. Kokusho is solid in general, and with Nightmare obvious becomes nuts. Titan fuels many, many engines, and is capable of ripping games wipe open. With them as your 6's, you don't have a need for Grave Titan.
Sylvan dies to your Deeds more often than not. Sometimes Arena does too, but it's a bit less likely. All I'll really say about this is that once you get an Arena online, you'll understand and you'll never go back to whatever library manipulation/draw you were using before. It's that good.
I can second that, if you land an arena you can't really lose unless your already in an awful position. With the exception of Veteran explore and single target discard, this deck gets extremely high value/card advantage out of each of its cards, more so than just about any legacy deck, UW control comes pretty close though; drawing two random cards is almost always going to be more useful than drawing one of your top 3 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
That said, top does have advantages as well. I ditched it a while ago, but recently have been thinking about giving it another try so I can make sure I made the right choice. I'm I'd miss phyrexian arena though.
Alrigh guys, im trying to build a red version to try huntmasters, but all the lists i've seen have a major weakness: It has nothing to do at instant speed for when you try to flip huntmaster.
So let the brainstorming begin!!
I need cool instant speed cards in JUND colors to do on your opponents turn when trying to flip the huntmaster and not loose the turn completly if the plan goes wrong.
the first that come to mind are:
-terminate
-pFire (but i dislike them in this decks, since we only run basics so grove won't last a single turn on the table)
-fire covenant ?(:P)
-beast within :o?
It sucks that all the jund color zeniths are sorcery :|
Suggestions ?!?
Lightning Bolt - pretty obviousQuote:
Originally Posted by arcannys
Jund Charm - not so obvious.
Ye i thought bolt was too abvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
My first list had 4 bolts, 2 terminateas removal, but im looking for something to do the turn after i cast huntmaster (6 mana available potentially), that is a thread rather than a removal spell.
Very easy. Punishing Fire is the main reason to run Red in the first place and it gives you something to with Huntmaster. You shouldn't be too worried about Wasteland on Grove. Wasteland is rarely dead anyway so that is no big problem. If they Waste it after you returned Fire you already gained an advantage.
i was thinking in trying BGr just for fun (and because im sick of blue matchups), ive been running BGw since ive started playing nic fit but i cant see how the red splash deals with combo and burn.
with white we have: circle of protection: red, leyline of sanctity, ethersworn canonist and gaddock teeg.
what is there in red that can replace this? for burn i guess since we have burn ourselfs we just kill their creatures (we cant even exile the flashback creatures with swords to plowshares...), but what about combo?
thanks.
Zuran Orb, Nether Void, False Cure, Obstinate Baloth, Finks, Null Rod, Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, Rain of Gore, Memoricide/Cranial Extraction....
Don't know if there is a whole lot more useful stuff ;)
Probably just more discard. 4 Therapy + 2 Inquisition + 3 Duress should be sufficient to set up a lock piece ;)
Okay, I played a similar list to Arianrhod's on the previous page. One thing I noticed immediately was the dislike of Skeletal Scrying. I never wanted to exile my cards b/c there were Therapies, creatures for Recurring Nightmare or cads to be brought back with sun titan in my gy. I was thinking it may be better as Promise of Power. It can either be a threat when you need it or cards to get you there. By the time you're ready to cast scrying, you'll be paying 5 mana anyway, and not doing all that much. Though, it may be better as another Vindicate or an Espleth (my version didn't run her).
I also found Moat unneeded as deed locks aggro up anyway and our large threats don't fly, but I may have taken it for granted. I don't know of any other gamebreaking enchantment that we don't already run.
I never wanted Grave Titan and though I ran Deranged Hermit, I never wanted him either.
Lastly has anyone been worried about running non-shrouded creatures? My list ran aGaea's Revenge and was relevant in one match where my opponent had a Go for the Throat in his hand and I had it in play. Gigapede may suffice though.
You forgot pyrostatic pillar and red blasts :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver
You can give it a shot, but the reason scrying is/was playable is that as an instant you can have options to navigate when and how you cast it vs. blue Jace decks. With scrying you don't have to tap five mana during your main phase while you gaze into your opponents eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperchord24
Pretty much exactly what Conboy said. The other advantage to Scrying is that you can use it to draw fewer cards earlier in the game. I've used it as an instant speed mulldrifter much more often than holding it to draw 7 late game, usually EoT when I'm fishing for a land drop or digging for a Deed. In that capacity it's been amazing, although I'll admit that sometimes it's a little lacking. Still, there's usually a few fetches or explorers floating around to feed to it. I originally tried Promise of Power wayyyyy back in like August, I think, and was disappointed by it then. Triple black is freaking rough. By all means, give it a go though and see how it works for you.
As far as Moat is concerned, my list is a very, very synergistic one. If you only played some parts of it, then you wouldn't get the full appreciation for some of the cards -- in the case of Moat, if yo u weren't running Kokusho or the Baneslayers, then you're missing some of the point of it. It's still kind of good, but IMO without big flying finishers, you should just have Moat in the board. The awesome thing about Moat + flyers is that you can get a lot of value in situations where you wouldn't assume that you would. The one and only game I've won against Sneak/Show was on the back of a Moat stopping his Progenituses while Kokusho flew over head. He landed an Emrakul off of Sneak and put me to like 3 life and two permanents: Moat and Kokusho. And they got there by themselves. I'll grant it's a corner case, but that's where Moat shines. It's obviously good against like Stoneblade and Maverick where they only run two or three flyers in their whole deck, but it's even better against the random decks that you wouldn't expect it to be good vs, especially when you build around it with more flying capabilities.
I will say this, though: if you're running Gaea's Revenge, don't run Moat. That tells me that you're doing something different with your list -- trying to fuse my list and yours will probably have disastrous consequences.
Tell you what -- post up your list and I'll have a look at it. I think that since Tao jumped ship to red, I've probably got the most experience with the white version at this point. Let me know what you're having trouble with, and what you especially like about your list, and we'll see what we can do.
I've been running a split of 3 Living Wish and 3 Green Sun's Zenith and I really like it. This deck is pretty fluid as far as configurations; I've been pushing the Veteran Explorer count down as I really only want to use him once, maybe twice. As far as a splash color, I'm torn:
GBr
Lands
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Eternal Witness
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Tarmogoyf
Other Spells
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Living Wish
1 Batterskull
Sideboard
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Acidic Slime
1 Anathemancer
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Inferno Titan
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Grave Titan
1 Shriekmaw
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
I really like this version. It has a lot of resilience and longevity. I've tried to make the maindeck redundant and the wishlist fairly flexible. I've made a straight GB configuration and a GBw version, both utilizing a very similar shell; out of the three, I think this one has the most potential, but GB is very solid too.
I think I'd go with Top over Guile for sure. You're basically always going to have the mana to use it, it can draw you an extra card in a pinch, and most importantly, it can dodge Deed.
The way I look at it, having two Tops between my hand and board isn't good, and neither is having two Guiles, BUT, between 3 Guiles and 4 Witnesses, I never have to worry about giving up a draw to use Deed. Try it out; not having to spend the mana every turn is actually quite beneficial.
only 1 veteran explorer? yes i hate having 2 in my hand too, but i rather have 2 than 0, by the time you play it using wishes and GSZ you'r already behind.
the point of this deck is to ramp with veteran and drop bombs (while managing to survive if you dont). hows no planeswalkers working for you? planeswalkers are simply the best cards so just play them..
what will goyf do for you? spending 2+2 or 1+2 on goyf seems bad IMO, also 4 witnesses? shes pretty good but having that many (along with wishes and GSZs) means you will spending most of your mana just getting things instead of playing them..
just my opinion, i might be wrong ofc.
This thread seems completely derailed. 1 Explorer? Come on.
I guess my thought is: why play this over Maverick? I'm trying to come up with a reason and I really can't.