[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

I think the Clique losses are just variance. If they're hitting a 1-of with you unable to find a more-than-4-of to kill it you're just unlucky. Against Jace, Liliana is actually pretty good because she doesn't need to wait as long to ultimate and unless you're far behind already will be able to, at worst, Jace/Lands split them before Jace fires. Liliana + Jace or Liliana + Sylvan should just be game over for them unless you're dead on board. Them Entreating for a bunch of Angels can be problematic if you don't have Deluge main.

Preboard the most important things to do agianst Miracles are: don't go hellbent with Lili out, keep pressure on but don't overextend into Verdict or Terminus (DRS + Goyf is plenty), use Vision effectively, and don't waste Decays. Out of the sideboard you have incredible options against them if you need them: Maelstrom Pulse, Zur's Weirding, Null Rod, Krosan Grip, Notion Thief, additional copies of Sylvan Library are all great.

Lilliana is at it's best vs miracles. Miracles is one of this deck's best matchups precisely because of Lilliana, and therefore she is the reason to play this deck. She is easy to ultimate and it is really hard to lose if you ultimate her. Just watch out for clique. Once you ultimate, it should be very hard for them to effectively entreat. I'm not going to get into split decisions-they usually have few permanents. Color screwing them should be the goal. In general, I force top early, use them to jam Lilliana in the midgame, or prevent an entreat later. Don't board out force of will! Don't board in much discard-they play great off the top of their deck and you can't afford the dead draw. I usually don't go out of my way to abrupt decay a naked counterbalance unless I have visions resolving. I value wastelands in the midgame despite them searching for basics because you can often waste a fetch in response to top flips and they need double white for entreat late. I don't like blind shardless's, especially without a fetch land to shuffle after bstorm.

I like 1 golgari charm post board as an additional answer to RIP, CB, and clique and occasionaly verdict. I like a null rod or needle for top, but don't overload on this effect. Pulse is also excellent to mop up angels and to a jace. I play with creeping tarpit which is huge in this matchup but understand those who don't like it. Vclique or notion thief are also good threats. Hedging against RIP by boarding a meddling mage in for a goyf is not unreasonable-naming terminus or entreat usually.

Sideboarding is obv build dependent (yours and theirs-are they RIP, are they 4 stp, do they have REBs?).

Anyways, good luck.

-IJ

I agree about the Clique variance, those games felt like fucking robbery:) Thanks for the advice guys. I'll keep banging away:) I'll keep Lilli in for the next local tourney. I'm out for the next couple weeks, but when I get back to it I'll post the current list and report.
cheers!
defector

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Originally Posted by btm10

Preboard the most important things to do agianst Miracles are: don't go hellbent with Lili out

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Could you elaborate on that btm? I dont really understand.

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Originally Posted by wwoning

Could you elaborate on that btm? I dont really understand.

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Emptying your hand (or going to a single card with Liliana out) against Miracles is a bad idea because it shows that you don't have any responses to their shenanigans and it leaves you open to things like Venser or Clique in response to Liliana's +1 activation. The sheer quantity of instant-speed interaction that Miracles presents means I usually place a premium on holding a copy of Abrupt Decay and/or Force against Miracles to make sure my bases are covered. Basically, if you're both drawing a card and discarding to Liliana (even with an empty hand) but they have Top out, you're leaving yourself open to ways they can get back in the game, and you can be sure that they'll be able to use whatever they draw.

Using Lilli vs Miracles is challenging and poses a lot of risks. Lilli can't beat a top and that's a serious problem, but Lilli's ultimate is fantastic against Miracles mana hungry board. Cutting their lands in half is very strong. I think Lilli+Jace is great or Lilli with some A. Visions. Just blindly jamming and ramping her up is a high risk proposition and near suicide against an active top. I think Lilli is on empty boards a good t3 DRS ramp play as that is early enough where an aggressive ramping is probably OK, but any turn later and thinsg get harder, otherwise if they have top or we beyond the fifth turn, I feel like BUG slides into a control role where we want to cast lilli into a Jace controlled board. I'm not sure if thats accurate, but I think thats the approach I'm taing in current testing.
cheers
defector

Hi all, I've taken Shardless BUG to the invitational and Open at SCG Columbus Origins this weekend, and I'd like to share some thoughts. It was a long weekend and I don't really remember how I won a lot of games but I'd like to focus on my losses. Hope it helps. Credits to Lejay for his brilliant main/sideboard. Made slight adjustments to the SB to my liking

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Thoughtseize
1 Savannah
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Golgari Charm

With a combined result of (3-1 Legacy invitational, and 6-4 Legacy Open). Lost to RG Lands in the invitational, and my 4 losses at the Open were to D&T (eventual winner, congrats!), Storm, RUG Delver, BUG Delver. I beat Junk Maverick Depths, BUG Delver, BUG Delver, Storm, Storm, Deathblade.

Was X-2 going into round 8 and lost the last two rounds. With a disappointing finish in the last 2 rounds, due to light misplays and mulligans, although I do blame my loss on myself more than the deck.

When I played vs Delver decks, I did not really SB any cards at all. Maybe 1 Golgari Charm vs the Delver decks with Dark Confidants / True-Name Nemsis. I thought this deck had a very easy time vs Delver decks, and I think Lejay thought so as well. I kept in all my FoWs vs the Delver decks due to my mentality that I needed more tempo against them while I tried to make land drops and cast my more expensive spells. In hindsight, I think I underestimated the matchup where I did not resolve any of my Ancestral Visions vs RUG Delver unfortunate and was Tempo-ed out by BUG Delver's DRS, Submerge and Wastelands. D&T I made a very bad misplay in game 1 of not FoW his blind Phyrexian Revoker while I had 2 Liliana of the Veils in my hand, was punished and I will learn from my mistake in the future. Game 3 I drew 10 cards in my last turn window and did not find a single sweeper in my main deck, I think I could have won if I did. Congrats to you sir again for winning the tournament! I won't bore you guys with how I lost to Storm :)

I think the maindeck is almost perfect for the current North American meta, nothing really to complain about there. Basic lands were absolutely amazing all weekend and 4x Wastelands are extremely good vs every deck especially combo.

I would like to add some cards vs BUG / RUG Delver decks in the future in the SB, maybe I have the wrong mentality about the SB, maybe I have the wrong SB, or maybe I underestimated the deck. I would like to start at Baleful Strix / Disfigures in the SB and maybe adding a few Strix back in the mainboard.

Toxic Deluge was absolutely insane, if I was able to cast the card during a creature matchup, I did not lose the game.

I've used every single SB card multiple times during the tournament, Pithing Needle/Null Rod and Night of Soul's Betrayal were the MVPs of the sidedeck, resulting in wins every time each card was resolved.

Maybe someone can give me some insight about the RUG / BUG Delver matchup? I think it's still very positive on our end but I maybe be having the wrong mindset coming into the tournament. Meddling Mage was obviously insane vs Storm each time.

Cheers, hope this disorganized report can bring up some discussions and improve us as players!

Oh ya, if you aren't playing Sylvan Library, you probably should. I have no idea why that card is legal and absent from people's decks.

Thanks for the report! RUG sometimes just gets you, between stifle and bolt and a timely wasteland. I think we play BUG over RUG because of the middle level and lower level draws, the high level draws from RUG are just unbeatable. I'd put that up to variance. I think DnT is kind of the Mav of the current era and if they curve out against us they just win, ces lav vie you can't get them all. I'm not sold on the Mage sb, but maybe thats correct? I really want a Garruk Relentless in the board, and maybe there's room. I alwasy felt like Sylvan was a potential singleton, I'll try it out. Better luck next time!
cheers
defector

@ Jessinator: Testing with one Sylvan main and its is pretty awesome. I won't be able to get to my local with it for 2 weeks,but it feels like its home to stay. It is both amazing as a casade hit and as an enabler for future cascades as well as just a solid turn 2 play. It breaks up stalled boards as well. Just a wonderful one of, go Sylvan! In last weeks local I went 3-1 and lost to Miracles again. Lilli has let me down for the last time, I'm siding her out from here on. She can't beat Top or Jace so they have seven cards to our 2-3 copies of Lilli that needs 4 successful untaps to ultimate. I know I'm the minority report on this, but she has failed me for the last time. I run the no FoW list with 8 HD main. I'm keeping TS in on the play to try and snag tops and Hymn in on the draw for max value, no more than 4 total to reduce bad late games. I think with practice I can probably get closer to Miracles but right now it feels unwinnable. I know I'm still new with the deck, so hopefully that perception will change with some more experience. Besides that I love the deck. I'll post a full list and local report in two weeks as I am still tinkering and brewing, in the mean time good luck to you all with it regardless of the flavor you play.
cheers
defector

PS have given up on my singleton Garruk in the board, with TNN and Councils Judgement it just feels hard to play him right now as anything other than win more.

For those of you with more experience with this deck, how would you compare the strengths and weaknesses of the traditional version with those of Lejay's version?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

For those of you with more experience with this deck, how would you compare the strengths and weaknesses of the traditional version with those of Lejay's version?

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Lejay's version basically throws away the combo matchup Game 1 in favor of stomping over every other fair deck. It is pretty much pure card advantage with the exception of Force of Will. The sideboard then devotes quite a bit of space towards beating combo via Cascade-able hate (discard, Meddling Mage, etc.)

Overall I think the Lejay version is a better, more cohesive deck that is probably the best 75 to play in a meta that focuses on midrange, control, and (to an extent) aggro. There are some matchups you will almost always lose to though, e.g. Burn and Blood Moon/Painter.

In a combo-heavy metagame, I'd rather just play Team America.

I couldn't find any discussion on the following within the Shardless shell:

I wondered if anyone had tried adding 2x Sword of the Meek and 2x Thopter Foundry, 1-2x Enlightened Tutor to the main or board (counting on the Savannah in the board per LeJay's lists). Another alternative would be 2x Leyline of the Void, 2x Helm of Obedience, and 1-2x Enlightened Tutor in the board. A combo transformation could be minimally invasive out of this shell. Obviously, you're not really all-in on either combo (you would be playing a very different deck in that case), but the thopter/sword combo in particular could be cascaded into with Shardless Agent, helps you stay alive in close aggro matches, and would add another layer of inevitability against creature strategies if combined with 1-2x Ensnaring Bridge in the board (also fights against Deathrite draining you out). Our own Deathrite, Thopter Tokens, and even Shardless can operate fairly well under a Bridge. I find Tarmogoyf to be the weakest link in this deck against the field and could be the main card swapped out to make room for either combo. Flying blockers are incredibly relevant against many scary cards...Inkmoth Nexus, Serra Avenger, Flickerwisp, Delver, etc...

I used to play Thopter/Sword in UB Tezzeret, but that deck's lands were rough and your opening draws had too much variance. Going this route may encourage us to play more Baleful Strix since it is an artifact. Games with this deck go quite long and either combo seems like a way to find some inevitability in these matchups (and maybe give yourself a chance to find a quick kill against a bad combo matchup in post-board games...giving yourself SOME chance to luck into a quick win is better than NO chance).

Would love to hear some feedback on this idea.

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Originally Posted by haymaker18

I couldn't find any discussion on the following within the Shardless shell:

I wondered if anyone had tried adding 2x Sword of the Meek and 2x Thopter Foundry, 1-2x Enlightened Tutor to the main or board (counting on the Savannah in the board per LeJay's lists). Another alternative would be 2x Leyline of the Void, 2x Helm of Obedience, and 1-2x Enlightened Tutor in the board. A combo transformation could be minimally invasive out of this shell. Obviously, you're not really all-in on either combo (you would be playing a very different deck in that case), but the thopter/sword combo in particular could be cascaded into with Shardless Agent, helps you stay alive in close aggro matches, and would add another layer of inevitability against creature strategies if combined with 1-2x Ensnaring Bridge in the board (also fights against Deathrite draining you out). Our own Deathrite, Thopter Tokens, and even Shardless can operate fairly well under a Bridge. I find Tarmogoyf to be the weakest link in this deck against the field and could be the main card swapped out to make room for either combo. Flying blockers are incredibly relevant against many scary cards...Inkmoth Nexus, Serra Avenger, Flickerwisp, Delver, etc...

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Someone has tried this, and it worked out very well for him: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...ant_with_.html
Rudy dumped Tarmogoyf and picked up Stoneforge Mystic, which pushed him into white rather than black. He's playing STP instead of Deathrite Shaman, probably for the same reason. He's playing an Enlightened Tutor package in the main, including Ensnaring Bridge. The deck is indebted to Shardless BUG but is not Shardless BUG.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

For those of you with more experience with this deck, how would you compare the strengths and weaknesses of the traditional version with those of Lejay's version?

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I think Lejay's version sacrifices a lot of your ability to interact with them in the early game for more mid-game power. Sometimes you are one the draw and they play things on turns one/two and you cant interact with them because you have cards like stalker/library in your hand and then die. With cards like thoughtseize and strix at least you have a punchers chance of being in games when they curve out and you are on the draw. I think that throwing away your combo match up to improve your creature match up is not a good idea at larger events. Your miracles match up is probably the equal with both version, you get cards like library and Liliana which are great but you also have clunkers like stalkers and deluge.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Lejay's version basically throws away the combo matchup Game 1 in favor of stomping over every other fair deck. It is pretty much pure card advantage with the exception of Force of Will. The sideboard then devotes quite a bit of space towards beating combo via Cascade-able hate (discard, Meddling Mage, etc.)

Overall I think the Lejay version is a better, more cohesive deck that is probably the best 75 to play in a meta that focuses on midrange, control, and (to an extent) aggro. There are some matchups you will almost always lose to though, e.g. Burn and Blood Moon/Painter.

In a combo-heavy metagame, I'd rather just play Team America.

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Originally Posted by James_Nguyen

I think Lejay's version sacrifices a lot of your ability to interact with them in the early game for more mid-game power. Sometimes you are one the draw and they play things on turns one/two and you cant interact with them because you have cards like stalker/library in your hand and then die. With cards like thoughtseize and strix at least you have a punchers chance of being in games when they curve out and you are on the draw. I think that throwing away your combo match up to improve your creature match up is not a good idea at larger events. Your miracles match up is probably the equal with both version, you get cards like library and Liliana which are great but you also have clunkers like stalkers and deluge.

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Thanks for your responses, and congratulations to James on your victory at Portland.

My intuition is that discard (traditional build) is easier for most combo decks to beat than Meddling Mages (Lejay's version), although this may not be altogether accurate and neglects the fact that Meddling Mages strain the manabase.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Thanks for your responses, and congratulations to James on your victory at Portland.

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Thanks!

But I have never played any sb games with meddling mages vs combo, but they seem great. The only reasonable informative input i can give is on main deck and i personally like more early ways to interact. Maybe the correct build is having discard in the main and mages in the board to really beat combo.

Hello, I'm a n00b of Shardless and I need some advice to beat Miracle!
I play a standard build with:

3 Fow
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hytt
1 Silvan Library

My sb:
2 Toxic D.
1 Pulse
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flustestorm
2 Vendillon
1 Cage
2 Surgical
2 Golg Charm

have you a side in-out guide for me?or other advice for different sb cards?

thanks :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by festeringGAB

Hello, I'm a n00b of Shardless and I need some advice to beat Miracle!
I play a standard build with:

3 Fow
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hytt
1 Silvan Library

My sb:
2 Toxic D.
1 Pulse
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flustestorm
2 Vendillon
1 Cage
2 Surgical
2 Golg Charm

have you a side in-out guide for me?or other advice for different sb cards?

thanks :)

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Side in pulse, cliques, and charms. Side out thoughtseizes, hymns, and a strix if you have any main deck. I don't think you need to run too much to beat miracles since this deck is naturally good against it if you know how to play the matchup. Other sideboard options you can consider: 1-2 Pithing Needle, Null Rod, another sylvan, Notion Thief, basically things that are permanent-based disruption and/or card advantage engines.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by festeringGAB

Hello, I'm a n00b of Shardless and I need some advice to beat Miracle!
I play a standard build with:

3 Fow
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hytt
1 Silvan Library

My sb:
2 Toxic D.
1 Pulse
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flustestorm
2 Vendillon
1 Cage
2 Surgical
2 Golg Charm

have you a side in-out guide for me?or other advice for different sb cards?

thanks :)

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on the draw i would go -2 hymn -1 force -1 strix for +2 clique +1 pulse +1 charm.
on the play i would go -2 force -2 hymn for +2 clique +1 pulse +1 charm
I want thoughtseize to fight REB because most of the game revolves around visions and jace advantage.

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Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac

James, I was happy to see your name in the top 8 of Portland because I just assumed you were playing a deck with Counterbalance. Then I checked the decklists and was sad.

:tongue:

Alright, I guess I'm happy that you won, even if you did have to resort to playing BUG.

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Thanks man. I getting too old to play that deck, my brian hurts after every round :)