[Primer] Nic Fit

If not playing PFire as a way to grind out games (plus Groves support R for Sneaks), I'd prefer going with Thoughtseize or Collective Brutallity iot power out a quicker game.
At first PFire was a good alternative to Kevin's earlier lists simply because i wanted less Sneak and more of a NicFit build, plus i was missing duals. Groves made perfect substitutes.
I found the biggest upside to be the different angles we have that oppose threats. This makes it much harder for opponents to deal with us, while trying not to loose. Offcourse the choice remains both a meta choice as well as personal preference.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

If I am playing GSZ, x = 4, with a passing of the turn before effect, I really like Master of the Wild Hunt. Bolts aside, this guy does work. I could see the naga being sweet when you have 4 Rhinos in the deck though.

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The tokens from Master die to your own Deed though, and Master itself dies to Bolt.

As for the panther petting snake guy - I'm going to get one and do some testing with it, see if it works for me. Don't underestimate the power of knowing when not to shuffle.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@ShadWills: Your posts have an edit-button :wink:

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I've been using it. Where should I use it more? I try to post how I'm thinking so y'all can follow my train of thought.

Edit: Oh, to not double post. Right.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

The tokens from Master die to your own Deed though, and Master itself dies to Bolt.

As for the panther petting snake guy - I'm going to get one and do some testing with it, see if it works for me. Don't underestimate the power of knowing when not to shuffle.

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I love the interactions with Courser and Tracker. The math says the hit rate is too low though. I've been thinking about this question for the past couple hours: How many cards does something need to generate as a 4 drop? How does that number change between generating cards right away vs delayed?

To start with, I'm basing things off the idea that card advantage is exponential in power on the basis that drawing 20 cards is more than twice as powerful as drawing 10 cards. So looking at various pieces of CA that we have, I'm also adding some ranges to this for ceiling (capping the range at 3):

I think the minimum acceptable CA is something like this
1 CMC - +1 card delayed
2 CMC - 1+ cards delayed
3 CMC - 2+ cards delayed, 1 card instant
4 CMC - 1+ cards every turn, 2 cards instant

On this chart, based on the math I did earlier, I don't think it's good enough. In optimal conditions it's still only .57 cards/turn. I don't think you're ever going to want to GSZ for this either, so instead I would recommend a Ranger of Eos package if you want CA or Rhinos if you just want to hit the opponent, at least for white.

What's the latest SneakyFit build?

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Originally Posted by TLK

What's the latest SneakyFit build?

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Two pages back has a fine Bolt-version near the bottom. Though I'd add a Nissa VF to the main, and have some Lost Legacies in the side. PFire version uses 3 PFire, 3 Grove I believe and Arianrhod should have posted his latest build in the last few pages as well.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I love the interactions with Courser and Tracker. The math says the hit rate is too low though. I've been thinking about this question for the past couple hours: How many cards does something need to generate as a 4 drop? How does that number change between generating cards right away vs delayed?

To start with, I'm basing things off the idea that card advantage is exponential in power on the basis that drawing 20 cards is more than twice as powerful as drawing 10 cards. So looking at various pieces of CA that we have, I'm also adding some ranges to this for ceiling (capping the range at 3):

I think the minimum acceptable CA is something like this
1 CMC - +1 card delayed
2 CMC - 1+ cards delayed
3 CMC - 2+ cards delayed, 1 card instant
4 CMC - 1+ cards every turn, 2 cards instant

On this chart, based on the math I did earlier, I don't think it's good enough. In optimal conditions it's still only .57 cards/turn. I don't think you're ever going to want to GSZ for this either, so instead I would recommend a Ranger of Eos package if you want CA or Rhinos if you just want to hit the opponent, at least for white.

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I really like the idea.

Once again I like to point out how good Baleful Strix is when you are running blue. Replaces itself (is that +1 instant?) and additionally can completely stall the opponent, forces them to use removal on it before swinging at your face with a Delver/Angler/TKS/etc.

I've had a recent game where I played a Tracker, then fetchland. Next turn I played a second Tracker, another fetchland. Opponent just scoops. That's seven cards to just draw whenever I want to, plus growing beaters. Who needs GSZ when you just draw into what you want? :laugh:

Yes. Strix is far above the curve. 2 mana, trades up, gives a card right away, pitches to FoW, and even has evasion.

Double Tracker gets absurd, and it's the reason I run two (and probably the best argument to run four). When the triggers start stacking, it becomes very difficult to lose the game.

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Originally Posted by Yutao

[AKH] Vizier of the Menagerie 3G

Creature-Naga Cleric

You may look at the top card of your library.

You may cast the top card of your library if it's a creature card.

You may spend mana as though it was mana of any color to cast creature spells.

3/4

http://imgur.com/pDkOnGg

Possibly good enough?

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I'd play the shit out of this guy.

Seriously though, he works very well for this deck. Minor tweaks to how the list is built. Someone else mentioned he synergizes with 2 Towers, plays well with Zenith, easy casting cost and CMC, conditional CA/grindy, is a natural addition to the deck as a support/utility guy -- assuming you were looking for another option, and has a "rainbow cost" effect that's sneaky underrated.

We have a new magical christmasland of: Vizier (future people), Courser (future lands), Tracker (lands = clues), Meren (recur dead people), 1 sensei's top to control it all.

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Originally Posted by Warden

I'd play the shit out of this guy.

Seriously though, he works very well for this deck. Minor tweaks to how the list is built. Someone else mentioned he synergizes with 2 Towers, plays well with Zenith, easy casting cost and CMC, conditional CA/grindy, is a natural addition to the deck as a support/utility guy -- assuming you were looking for another option, and has a "rainbow cost" effect that's sneaky underrated.

We have a new magical christmasland of: Vizier (future people), Courser (future lands), Tracker (lands = clues), Meren (recur dead people), 1 sensei's top to control it all.

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Do you have a personal list or a rough draft where you think the Vizier can work well with the rest of the package you're describing?

Talk of tracker makes me think that tracker is already better than the new guy. Maybe I just don't see it. Lower creature count and we have to work for him to be really good. Rarely can get him plus another dude the same turn.

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Originally Posted by Brael

To start with, I'm basing things off the idea that card advantage is exponential in power on the basis that drawing 20 cards is more than twice as powerful as drawing 10 cards.

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Why would you say drawing 20 cards is more than twice better than 10? The only reason I can think of is that you gain more options plus the double amount of cards, but in my experience excess card advantage (i.e cards you have in your hand but cannot get value from because of mana constraints) just clog there, so in my opinion the benefit of card advantage tops off rather than grow exponentially. It doesn't matter that you have 10 cards in your hand if you are only able to play 3 of them.

On the new dude, I just can't see a world in which he is better than Courser of Kruphix, which already doesn't see play in absolutely all lists. Even the most creature heavy builds don't run as much dudes as lands, so the odds of hitting a card are better for the Courser.

Even without taking into account the life gain (which is crucial in some matchups; an early courser can mean game to burn if you get to play a couple of turns) I feel that she puts you in less awkward spots because lands are far more generic than creatures. What I'm trying to say with this is that almost all the times you find a land on top you'll be able top play it without being suboptimal. But with Vizier, hitting a creature means you have to play a very specific card (worsened even far by the fact that most creatures in Nic Fit are singletons) which plenty of times will not be relevant to your game plan. So you'll have to pass over the card advantage or play a card which is not necessarily the right for the situation.

I guess my conclusion is, if you want to play this, you'd better be abusing Courser already because she is way better.

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Originally Posted by Lueseto

Why would you say drawing 20 cards is more than twice better than 10?

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Many reasons:
#1. It's more digging for specific high impact cards.
#2. Board presence. Cards do things, attackers/blockers negate each other. If both boards are empty, adding one creature to it is good, and two is better (generally 3 is worse though). But if the opponent has 1 blocker then the numbers you need also go up by 1. So now you need 3 creatures. If 1/3 of your deck is creatures, that means 1 card from your opponent is worth 3 cards worth of resources from you. Thus more cards=more presence. You can't remove everything afterall.
#3. Card velocity. Having 20 6 drops isn't going to do much for you, but having a bunch of low drops that let you string big turns together is valuable. Often times people look to tempo decks as turning the corner at the point where they cast 2 spells every turn while the opponent is stuck on one. Or more broadly, when they cast 2 spells to every 1 the opponent has. They start pulling further head though when it becomes 3:1, 4:1, etc... this is why mana development is so important for this deck, and why BUG Delver loses basically every game where their mana denial plan falls apart.
#4. Combos. Getting specific cards enables combos which creates very powerful interactions. Drawing 20 gives you a much better chance of drawing your combo as drawing 10 does.

Last, I want to prove this point to you by pushing things to the extreme. Keep my combo point in mind here, but it really applies to anything. Assuming you can win that turn, would you rather draw 59 cards or 60 cards? 60 is access to your whole deck, while 59 creates a 1.5% chance that you miss out on your combo. 58 cards increases this to 3%. We can walk it backwards too, at 30 cards there's still a 50% chance your needed card is in your deck... not a very reliable combo. What happens when you walk it back to 10 cards?

In Legacy, card advantage is king because it's actually pretty hard to get (most of it is selection not raw cards) and the most common way people screw it up is that they only include a couple pieces of CA to pull ahead by 1 or 2 cards. That's good, but where you really crush people is by pulling ahead by 15+ cards. That's why SE Fit works, why it can even outgrind Miracles, and even shrug off Counter/Top locks. When you want CA the best plan is to go all in on it.

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On the new dude, I just can't see a world in which he is better than Courser of Kruphix, which already doesn't see play in absolutely all lists. Even the most creature heavy builds don't run as much dudes as lands, so the odds of hitting a card are better for the Courser.

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Courser is a better card. It has a higher hit rate, offers a stronger card for CA, and costs less mana. This new guy works pretty well with Courser, and it's totally doable to run both. But I don't think the 4 drop is consistent enough.

Hmm, I get that reasons... It seems fair, but Nic Fit ain't a combo deck and the synergies are pretty mild, it's not like you are gaining a crap ton of value by combining any two cards, and not all the format is Miracles where you have loads of time to get use of all your card advantage. Many times you'll be against aggro/combo decks where you have to actually play cards and not go with a ton of CA. I'm referring to those situations win which you start popping clues until your hand is full but then you were not making any board, and you only can play a limited amount of cards each turn, which is the scenario in which I feel CA kind of tops off. Anyway, regarding Vizier I'm pretty sure I won't even be testing

I'm pretty anxious to see the spoiler for the green god: if it's requirement for combat is to have a certain amount of lands it could be an excellent zenitheable threat. Shame is that, unlike Theros' gods, these ones can be plowshared even if they are not active, so grinding Miracles with the activated ability probably won't be a thing.

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Originally Posted by Rishadan

Do you have a personal list or a rough draft where you think the Vizier can work well with the rest of the package you're describing?

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I'd start somewhere with this guy's decklist: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21701&iddeck=166716
I think Vizier allows NicFit to keep its manabase surprisingly GBx. I like the concept of Leovold + Altraxa + Sigarda + [insert additional splash-color friends] all being played off the top of the library. 2x DRS could possibly smooth out any other issues.

Alternatively, you could go bananas with creatures like this NicFitPod list and keep pressure/CA mounting: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21576&iddeck=165594

I don't have a 60 card list drafted. But I think of all the potential the naga cleric gives.

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Originally Posted by Warden

I don't have a 61 card list drafted. But I think of all the potential the naga cleric gives.

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Fixed that for you.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Brael

I love the interactions with Courser and Tracker. The math says the hit rate is too low though. I've been thinking about this question for the past couple hours: How many cards does something need to generate as a 4 drop? How does that number change between generating cards right away vs delayed?

To start with, I'm basing things off the idea that card advantage is exponential in power on the basis that drawing 20 cards is more than twice as powerful as drawing 10 cards. So looking at various pieces of CA that we have, I'm also adding some ranges to this for ceiling (capping the range at 3):

I think the minimum acceptable CA is something like this
1 CMC - +1 card delayed
2 CMC - 1+ cards delayed
3 CMC - 2+ cards delayed, 1 card instant
4 CMC - 1+ cards every turn, 2 cards instant

On this chart, based on the math I did earlier, I don't think it's good enough. In optimal conditions it's still only .57 cards/turn. I don't think you're ever going to want to GSZ for this either, so instead I would recommend a Ranger of Eos package if you want CA or Rhinos if you just want to hit the opponent, at least for white.

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Hard to argue with math. Am going to try regardless. Even if it's only 1 card every other turn (and you'll be casting at least 1 creature every other turn) you'll end up burying your opponent in cards/board position either way.

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Originally Posted by square_two

I've had a recent game where I played a Tracker, then fetchland. Next turn I played a second Tracker, another fetchland. Opponent just scoops. That's seven cards to just draw whenever I want to, plus growing beaters. Who needs GSZ when you just draw into what you want? :laugh:

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Another Tracker... Only a 60 card MD... Goddammit.

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Originally Posted by Brael

In Legacy, card advantage is king because it's actually pretty hard to get (most of it is selection not raw cards) and the most common way people screw it up is that they only include a couple pieces of CA to pull ahead by 1 or 2 cards. That's good, but where you really crush people is by pulling ahead by 15+ cards. That's why SE Fit works, why it can even outgrind Miracles, and even shrug off Counter/Top locks. When you want CA the best plan is to go all in on it.

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Glad to see the SE Fit excercise did some good (and keeps coming up from time to time).

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Originally Posted by Lueseto

I'm pretty anxious to see the spoiler for the green god: if it's requirement for combat is to have a certain amount of lands it could be an excellent zenitheable threat. Shame is that, unlike Theros' gods, these ones can be plowshared even if they are not active, so grinding Miracles with the activated ability probably won't be a thing.

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Wait, what? Well that just sucks.

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Originally Posted by Warden

I'd start somewhere with this guy's decklist: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21701&iddeck=166716
I think Vizier allows NicFit to keep its manabase surprisingly GBx. I like the concept of Leovold + Altraxa + Sigarda + [insert additional splash-color friends] all being played off the top of the library. 2x DRS could possibly smooth out any other issues.

Alternatively, you could go bananas with creatures like this NicFitPod list and keep pressure/CA mounting: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21576&iddeck=165594

I don't have a 60 card list drafted. But I think of all the potential the naga cleric gives.

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I'll post a Junk Fit list somewhere in the coming days. See what I can come up with.

About card advantage - I don't think having 10 vs 20 cards matters that much. What important is having more cards than the opponent. In a build like SE where any individual card is answerable, you need a lot of CA, but at the other end of the scale in Nyx, your cards are very difficult to answer and often deal with or invalidate a lot of the opponent's so you don't need much CA at all.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

About card advantage - I don't think having 10 vs 20 cards matters that much. What important is having more cards than the opponent. In a build like SE where any individual card is answerable, you need a lot of CA, but at the other end of the scale in Nyx, your cards are very difficult to answer and often deal with or invalidate a lot of the opponent's so you don't need much CA at all.

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This. During one of my game with nyx against shardless he had managed to resolve 4 vision and 2 jace, but i never felt overwhelming Just because i had starfield :)

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Originally Posted by Warden

I'd start somewhere with this guy's decklist: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21701&iddeck=166716
I think Vizier allows NicFit to keep its manabase surprisingly GBx. I like the concept of Leovold + Altraxa + Sigarda + [insert additional splash-color friends] all being played off the top of the library. 2x DRS could possibly smooth out any other issues.

Alternatively, you could go bananas with creatures like this NicFitPod list and keep pressure/CA mounting: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21576&iddeck=165594

I don't have a 60 card list drafted. But I think of all the potential the naga cleric gives.

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I'd definitely be looking at a BUG list for trying out the Vizier. 4 DRS, 4 Strix, and then all of the value 3-4 cmc creatures you can jam. Similar to these other low cmc BUG lists but with less walkers or loam stuff, and having more creatures. Weaker to Terminus, but you should be filling up your hand well and rebounding anyway. Big nod to Meren and creature-based removal (Shriekmaw).

Deathrite imo should absolutely be 4-of in such a list if you are able to easily play them from the top of your deck. Having multiple Deathrites on the field can kill your opponent very quickly.

Edit: Just realized this list would probably want GSZ...makes me rethink Strix. I've gotten so used to playing without GSZ lately that having GSZ plus Strix just feels very odd to me.