Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
If your cloak enabler costs 3-4 mana and their removal costs 1-2 mana then they can afford to pay the tax.
Edit: It also loses Ward when you flip. Much less reliable protection than
Cloudform
And then that's their turn. You untap, bounce the cloak and make another. Or you have the second one.
but what I was addressing was you saying that veil only stopped one answer: If you spend 3 on a coat, 4 with veil. Even 5 with Hidden they need to spend: 1 For removal, 2 for ward, another 1 for removal, and another 2 for ward. That's six, which is more than 5. We're also assuming U/B answers Solitude is 2 cards and +2 Mana, 7 if they want to actually cast it. This is prohibitive.
The coat is already making waves, and having a deck that can actually put something good under it is just bonus.
E: Even if you are not sold on Plain Sight (which, fine, cut it.) then you should be sold on Coat. Clark was talking about Bant lists earlier. Add Stoneforge. Add Coat.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Hide in Plain Sight, they can just remove over 2 turns: 3 per turn. 2/2 is slow. They have time & mana left to do other things. If you flip, it loses Ward.
Making 2 2/2s for 3G is not impressive, even with Ward 2. Compare it to planeswalkers that make tokens, or to Collected Company (which sees no Legacy play).
Re: Veil. You're not wasting Veil/LQR to protect a vanilla 2/2 manifested land anyway. It's to protect Dreadnought, and that won't have Ward.
Remember if your plan is to never flip then it's just a 2/2. Opponent plays a bigger creature vs Stiflenought deck with little removal, and they don't need to kill the 2/2.
Coat is better. But reusing Coat costs 5 per turn vs 3-4 to kill, so even if they do spend removal they're ahead on tempo.
But they don't have to pay the Ward: Abrupt Decay, Sheoldred's Edict, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Powder Keg, Brotherhood's End, and other effects kill them without paying Ward.
Answering Coat instead also dodges Ward: FoW, FoN, Daze, PEnding, Leyline Binding, Collector Ouphe, Abrade, Doorkeeper Thrull, FoV, etc.
Coat is good, but it's better in control. In a deck like this you can't remove opponent's bigger creatures. You also can't afford to play a slow game making Coat over and over. Dreadnought works better with Cloudform, which still protects after the flip. Coat seems better in a controlling deck with stable mana and removal for bigger threats.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Hide in Plain Sight, they can just remove over 2 turns: 3 per turn. 2/2 is slow. They have time & mana left to do other things. If you flip, it loses Ward.
If my opponent is taking two turns to answer what I did in one and spending more mana than I did to do so I am comming out ahead.
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Making 2 2/2s for 3G is not impressive, even with Ward 2. Compare it to planeswalkers that make tokens, or to
Collected Company (which sees no Legacy play).
What makes it impressive is that these tokens are 2/2s that all have the potential to win win the game on the spot. The op is forced to at the very least represent removal because until they don't you are representing a phyrexian dreadnought. And if you used Worldly tutor, your are representing at least 14 power. You might have found 24 power.
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Remember if your plan is to never flip then it's just a 2/2. Opponent plays a bigger creature vs Stiflenought deck with little removal, and they don't need to kill the 2/2.
This is where I think you're biggest misunderstanding of the card is. They have to answer the face-downs as face downs. It is much worse for the op if they answer them face up. And, as face downs they represent anywhere from 2 to 12 worth of power, so if you attack with them they can't just leave them be because you're threatening to end the game each time. They also can't block for the same reasons. The window for the op is when you tapped out to make them.
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Coat is better. But reusing Coat costs 5 per turn vs 3-4 to kill, so even if they do spend removal they're ahead on tempo.
But they don't have to pay the Ward: Abrupt Decay, Sheoldred's Edict, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Powder Keg, Brotherhood's End, and other effects kill them without paying Ward.
Assuming you've stopped talking about Plain Sight here, all of these answers still leave behind the coat, putting you up on cards. And Brotherhood's End doesn't kill a dreadnought since it's a sorcery. They choose artifacts, you leave it a creature. They choose damage, you turn it up into a dreadnought.
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Answering Coat instead also dodges Ward: FoW, FoN, Daze, PEnding, Leyline Binding, Collector Ouphe, Abrade, Doorkeeper Thrull, FoV, etc.
Answering coat leaves me with the creature, again a two for one. And again you list answers that don't work: Doorkeeper thrull? Ok yes. I will play my dreadnought faceup.
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Coat is good, but it's better in control. In a deck like this you can't remove opponent's bigger creatures. You also can't afford to play a slow game making Coat over and over. Dreadnought works better with
Cloudform, which still protects after the flip. Coat seems better in a controlling deck with stable mana and removal for bigger threats.
I don't need to remove my op's bigger creatures. I have the biggest one.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
If my opponent is taking two turns to answer what I did in one and spending more mana than I did to do...
What makes it impressive is that these tokens are 2/2s that all have the potential to win win the game on the spot. The op is forced to at the very least represent removal because until they don't you are representing a phyrexian dreadnought. And if you used Worldly tutor, your are representing at least 14 power. You might have found 24 power.
Not 2 full turns. If you spent 4 mana (+1 on tutor too?), they answer for 3, they can do other things. If your deck made no threats turn 1-2 and theirs did, they're already ahead.
The 12/12 is a real threat. But they don't need 2 turns or big mana to manage that. They only need 1 mana up for Plow / Push / Solitude (or 2 for Decay / Abrade / Wear Tear / Borrower / Leyline / Touch the Spirit Realm). If you flip, they kill for 1 mana without paying Ward. If you don't flip, they can take 2-4 and kill more slowly. The problem is Dreadnought doesn't keep Ward when it needs the protection most.
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This is where I think you're biggest misunderstanding of the card is. They have to answer the face-downs as face downs. It is much worse for the op if they answer them face up.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding a rule here but don't you need to flip up in the Declare Blockers step (when you have priority, before combat damage, before opponent gets priority)? It doesn't use the stack but does need priority. Opponent gets priority after you and can spend 1 mana removal to stop taking 12/losing their blocker. Ward is gone.
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Assuming you've stopped talking about Plain Sight here, all of these answers still leave behind the coat, putting you up on cards. And Brotherhood's End doesn't kill a dreadnought since it's a sorcery.
Talking about the cloaked 2/2s in general. Also listed answers for Coat after. Brothershood End answers HiPS after you tap out to play it. With Coat it could kill Coat or the 2/2 (if it's not Dreadnought or while tapped out).
With Coat opponent has many choices: kill 2/2 with effects that dodge Ward, answer Coat on the stack (no 2/2 created), counter Coat trigger (no 2/2 created), answer Coat on battlefield while tapped out (it uses up a lot of mana), play bigger threat.
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I don't need to remove my op's bigger creatures. I have the biggest one.
Top card won't always be Dreadnought. They just need to race a 3/2, and only need removal if you flip to Dreadnought (loses Ward). Otherwise Coat cloaking random cards is something they can race.
That's why Coat seems better as a control finisher.
If you're doing a 2-card combo to make Dreadnought the top card and cloak it into play, Cloudform protects it better.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Not 2 full turns. If you spent 4 mana (+1 on tutor too?), they answer for 3, they can do other things. If your deck made no threats turn 1-2 and theirs did, they're already ahead.
How did they answer for 3? They could answer ONE 2/2 for 3, and hope they picked the right one.
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The 12/12 is a real threat. But they don't need 2 turns or big mana to manage that. They only need 1 mana up for Plow / Push / Solitude (or 2 for Decay / Abrade / Wear Tear / Borrower / Leyline / Touch the Spirit Realm). If you flip, they kill for 1 mana without paying Ward. If you don't flip, they can take 2-4 and kill more slowly. The problem is Dreadnought doesn't keep Ward when it needs the protection most.
Isn't this true for any method of putting a dreadnought in play?
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding a rule here but don't you need to flip up in the Declare Blockers step (when you have priority, before combat damage, before opponent gets priority)? It doesn't use the stack but does need priority. Opponent gets priority after you and can spend 1 mana removal to stop taking 12/losing their blocker. Ward is gone.
So lets say three cards. Bolt, Swords, and Arupt Decay (which no one plays anymore, come on). Bolt can't kill a dreadnought. So your op has to cast it when its face down. So they have to pay 1 for bolt. Then, they have to pay 2 for ward. So only once the op comits the 3 mana you can turn the 2/2 face up and blank the bolt.
Swords, can kill either, but you don't want to swords a dreadnought. 12 life is a lot of time you're giving up. So you do it face down and go through the same tree.
Abrupt decay is the same no matter which dreadnought enabler we're using, but we can play around it and just leave the dreadnought face down. Op can't commit the decay until you turn face up, so it's 4 power you get to keep swinging with until you're ready to go for it.
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Talking about the cloaked 2/2s in general. Also listed answers for Coat after. Brothershood End answers HiPS after you tap out to play it. With Coat it could kill Coat or the 2/2 (if it's not Dreadnought or while tapped out).
With Coat opponent has many choices: kill 2/2 with effects that dodge Ward, answer Coat on the stack (no 2/2 created), counter Coat trigger (no 2/2 created), answer Coat on battlefield while tapped out (it uses up a lot of mana), play bigger threat.
So End is either blank or card negative vs coat?
again, counter magic applies to every dreadnought enabler so why are you acting like it has some unique power vs coat?
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Top card won't always be Dreadnought. They just need to race a 3/2, and only need removal if you flip to Dreadnought (loses Ward). Otherwise Coat cloaking random cards is something they can race.
Between brainstorm and tutor, there's a good chance it will be. Plus dreadnought isn't your only creature, it's just the best one. You have other things to cloak.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
How did they answer for 3? They could answer ONE 2/2 for 3, and hope they picked the right one.
I meant 3 per turn (over 2 turns). As in they don't waste 2 FULL turns like you claimed. On both turns they have other mana left & permanents played from turns 1-2, while the UG deck played no early threats.
They can answer & make progress, facing only 4 damage from a 4-mana play if you don't flip.
And that's if they don't use the other methods that just ignore Ward.
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Isn't this true for any method of putting a dreadnought in play?
They cost less than 4 mana.
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So End is either blank or card negative vs coat?
If you Worldly Tutored you spent 2 cards, so they're neutral or ahead. If they play a bigger creature, they don't need to play any answers unless you flip to 12/12 (then just 1-for-1 the 12/12).
If you didn't set up the top card, it's usually not a 12/12 and they can race without answering it.
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again, counter magic applies to every dreadnought enabler so why are you acting like it has some unique power vs coat?
I'm not. But most cost 1-2 mana.
You've been saying these 3-4 mana cloak enablers are worth it because Ward 2 buys tempo or protects against multiple answers. My point is there are a ton of ways to answer without paying the Ward 2, so Ward is unreliable protection. You may not get the tempo or cards back, trading down. Better off using a 1-2 mana enabler if it still dies to Fatal Push.
At least with Cloudform the protection is better. Hexproof. Keeps it face up.
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Between brainstorm and tutor, there's a good chance it will be. Plus dreadnought isn't your only creature, it's just the best one. You have other things to cloak.
The other ones cost 3-4 mana to flip up and are smaller, so opponent has more tempo to pay the Ward cost, find answers, or play better threats. Dreadnought is the real threat.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
I meant 3 per turn (over 2 turns). As in they don't waste 2 FULL turns like you claimed. On both turns they have other mana left & permanents played from turns 1-2, while the UG deck played no early threats.
They can answer & make progress, facing only 4 damage from a 4-mana play if you don't flip.
And that's if they don't use the other methods that just ignore Ward.
I'm still going to do it.
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They cost less than 4 mana.
Daze costs zero and so does force. I assume this means no one plays any spells that cost 1, right?
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If you Worldly Tutored you spent 2 cards, so they're neutral or ahead. If they play a bigger creature, they don't need to play any answers unless you flip to 12/12 (then just 1-for-1 the 12/12).
If you didn't set up the top card, it's usually not a 12/12 and they can race without answering it.
If they have a bigger creature then they need removal for my 12/12 and I'll cloak the next card.
If they don't have a creature that can race they lose when I make another cloak next turn or the turn after, or over the next fifty turns.
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I'm not. But most cost 1-2 mana.
You are, it's all you've been talking about.
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You've been saying these 3-4 mana cloak enablers are worth it because Ward 2 buys tempo or protects against multiple answers. My point is there are a ton of ways to answer without paying the Ward 2, so Ward is unreliable protection. You may not get the tempo or cards back, trading down. Better off using a 1-2 mana enabler if it still dies to
Fatal Push.
If your point is that ward isn't hexproof then I don't care. It's better than other
Quote:
At least with Cloudform the protection is better. Hexproof. Keeps it face up.
So when we're talking about coat, you always get to assume a miss. Now that we're talking about some other card we're assuming it's always a hit? Missing with Coat is better since it's repeatable. And if the CLoudform gets got (which can't happen to coat because of it's batterskull text) you lose the protection. Cloaks stay warded.
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The other ones cost 3-4 mana to flip up and are smaller, so opponent has more tempo to pay the Ward cost, find answers, or play better threats. Dreadnought is the real threat.
They're all threats. That's why they're in the deck.
We're going in circles here. If you don't want to do it don't do it.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Daze costs zero and so does force. I assume this means no one plays any spells that cost 1, right?
No one plays Cancel when other cards do the same for less mana, so mana cost matters. Why not play a 7-mana enabler?
HiPS costs 4 (+ 1 to tutor) to make a Dreadnought that dies to the same things as the 1-2 mana enablers.
Mana cost matters because Ward only has text if you have tempo; if you wasted tempo paying extra mana for effects, opponent had time to develop mana to negate Ward. If your enabler cost 2 extra & 2 turns slower, opponent has 2 extra to pay.
Still do it if you want. We're not telling you what to play. We're giving reasons why it's bad. You're still free to play it.
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If they have a bigger creature then they need removal for my 12/12 and I'll cloak the next card.
If they don't have a creature that can race they lose when I make another cloak next turn or the turn after, or over the next fifty turns.
Coat is much better than HiPS.
But since this is Legacy and not Standard, it's much easier to race a 3/2 that costs 5 mana to redeploy.
Opponent only has to answer the creature if you flip into Dreadnought (hold up 0-2 mana). Otherwise they can just answer Coat or ignore both & race.
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You are, it's all you've been talking about.
If your point is that ward isn't hexproof then I don't care. It's better than other
No, I've been talking about the many many ways opponent can interact without paying the Ward 2. If they don't need to pay extra, you're trading down using 3-4 mana enablers instead of 1-2 mana ones.
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So when we're talking about coat, you always get to assume a miss. Now that we're talking about some other card we're assuming it's always a hit? Missing with Coat is better since it's repeatable.
For blind reveals, both will miss. That's why Cloudform doesn't see play either. Cloak is repeatable but consumes a ton of mana & tempo before finding a random Dreadnought.
But you've been talking about setting up the top card with Tutor or Brainstorm. If so, Cloudform works too.
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If the CLoudform gets got (which can't happen to coat because of it's batterskull text) you lose the protection. Cloaks stay warded.
Dreadnought gets got while wearing the Coat (only 1 removal needed). Cloudform must be removed first, it demands 2 separate answers.
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They're all threats. That's why they're in the deck.
Threats that cost 6-8 mana to be better than 2/2s (Coat/HiPS + flip 3-4 mana creature).
Dreadnought is much more threatening (bigger & cheaper), but opponent can still answer favorably.
Re: Removal on cloaked Dreadnought
StP, Fatal Push & Murderous Cut kill it face up at 1 mana.
Solitude & Snuff Out kill it face up for 0 mana.
Force of Vigor kills both Cloak + flipped Dreadnought for 0 mana.
Decay, Assassin's Trophy, Abrade, Drown in the Loch, Wear // Tear, Brazen Borrower, Leyline Binding, Touch the Spirit Realm all answer face-up Dreadnought for 2 mana.
Bolt is the one that must kill it face down and pay 2. But Bolt is dead vs Stifle+Nought, so even paying 3 to kill is pure upside.
The other instant answers ignore the Ward tax. If you don't flip, opponent just needs to hold up their 0-2 mana answer while proceeding with their own game plan. Their plan is faster than a 2/2 or 3/2, so they don't have to interact unless you flip.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
No one plays
Cancel in formats where other cards do the same for less mana, so mana cost matters. Why not play a 7-mana enabler?
So we can just stop here then, since Death's shadow costs 1 mana and is 1 card nothing else matters. Good talk.
I've addressed and answered the rest of your post since it's just a rehash. I like ward, I like repeatability and being up on cards. Don't care about the rest.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
So we can just stop here then, since Death's shadow costs 1 mana and is 1 card nothing else matters. Good talk.
Both that and the FoW/Daze arguments are ridiculous exaggerations. The point is you need adequate compensation for spending more mana than a cheaper effect.
Cancel is invalidated by Counterspell; Cryptic Command is not. It has powerful modes for the higher cost (still not enough to be Legacy playable though).
Cloaking Dreadnought is not adequate compensation. Opponent can easily ignore the Ward 2 tax. A 4-mana Dreadnought enabler needs to do more than HiPS. The 2/2s are slow on their own.
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I've addressed and answered the rest of your post since it's just a rehash. I like ward, I like repeatability and being up on cards. Don't care about the rest.
My comment was repetitive. In summary your options are:
A) Leave face down. Has Ward 2, but slow 2/2 clock opponent can race, ignore or block.
B) Turn face up. Loses Ward and dies to all the same instant removal, except your enabler cost 3-4 instead of 1-2 so opponent is ahead on turns & mana.
Coat's repeatability is useful, but slow. To play slow grindy lines you need to be an interactive control deck stopping the faster & better things opponent does, or they win first.
But if you like it, feel free to play it and post your results.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
When do they post league dumps? Tuesday's and Thursdays?
While you were writing the same post for the upteenth time I just went ahead with it and you can see the list on Tuesday.
Coatnought is good.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournaments/legacy#paper
This week's results are up. 1 Cryptic Cloak in Cephalid Breakfast, but don't see any Cloak-Nought yet.
If you do get good results, looking forward to hearing more.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
So it will be posted next dump because I just finished like an hour ago
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Missed that post earlier. Did you edit to add the list?
OK this looks a lot more viable than the UG Hide in Plain Sight + Worldly Tutor + Eater of Days stuff earlier.
White removal for bigger threats. Stoneforge for action on 2 mana. Multiple good threats if Dreadnought fails (Uro, Stoneforge Kaldra). None of the 4 mana stuff. I can see why that would do well.
Did you 5-0 with Bant or with the Hide in Plain Sight + Vesuvan Drifter + Worldly Tutor plan?
Edit: Some recent Bant lists on mtgtop8 have Strict Proctor main to hate on the meta. That's a huge trump card in the mirror -> stopping Stoneforge, Kaldra, and Coat (although it does turn on both player's Dreadnoughts). Those lists could easily swap Proctor for Thrull.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Missed that post earlier. Did you edit to add the list?
Yeah, that's what the E: means ;)
(The edit was just after I made the post underneath it(
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
They have all the Legacy League 5-0 dumps up to Saturday, Saturday Challenge results, and Friday Prelim results. See same link above.
Friday had 2 Stiflenought 5-0s:
1 UW with 4x Doorkeeper Thrull (no other creatures other than Nought, no Coat)
1 Bant with Strict Proctor (no SFM or Coat)
Friday Prelim & Saturday Challenge both had 0 Dreadnoughts.
In all the online results so far, Coat only appears as a 1-of SFM target in Cephalid Breakfast.
Thrull might have potential, but playing only Dreadnought with it seems bad.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
:(
They didn't post my list ?
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
:(
They didn't post my list ?
There needs to be a critical mass of unique card names to guarantee getting listed. Otherwise it's a lottery.
Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
There needs to be a critical mass of unique card names to guarantee getting listed. Otherwise it's a lottery.
Oddly the same day (02-10) they posted 3 Turbo Goblins, including 2 identical lists from the same pilot.
The 2 Stiflenought lists posted (02-10) both look different from what 4Dogs was talking about. No SFM, no Cryptic Coat, no Worldly Tutor. No other day has any Dreadnoughts, so it must have been that day.
4Dogs can you post your list?
