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I found that funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Tartell
As an Aggro Loam player, I agree that the matchup is not that bad for Enchantress. But especially when I play six or seven discard spells + three or four enchantment destruction + three Dreams after boarding, I've found that I can often get the Enchantresses/Presences before they can start drawing their deck, and as we all know Enchantress without those cards out can not hold its own for long (as long as there's no Moat out).
Zach could you post your most recent list here please? :) (with sideboard :P)
thanks! Maarten
It should be stipulated that how many Ground Seals you're playing MD is critical in this match-up. The lists running 4x will find this match to be pretty favorable.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
I mostly agree with Zach, except for Team America. Discard + Counters + LD + Pressure is a lot to ask this deck to deal with. I didn't get to test against it post-board however, and the list I was running at the time was not MDing Choke, which would be pretty critical in this match-up.
@ Zach Tartell:
First of all, I do NOT need an instruction on how to play this deck!! I played this deck for at least 3 years now, always seeking for improvement, played on various tournaments and playtested a LOT. I always kept track of the latest developments in all kinds of forums, analysed tournament reports and tested cards some enchantress players from germany suggested.
Naturally, I play Sacred Ground. Allthough georgjorge doesn't favor the matchup against Enchantress, I still lost a game 2:0 against Aggro Loam. There's absolutely nothing you can do, once you're mana drained, engines discarded, can't play moat, only via replenish, cause you're screwed, you got a grass (no problem for him) with 3 counters on it and he's got 2 5/6 goyfs and a 7/7 crusher. Yes, chumpblocking is the answer. But not against TA, when he sinkholes your 2 enchanted basics and wastes and stifles everything else and you just have 1 draw engine in play. Think twice before chumpblocking here. 1 choke main solves the problem? I don't think so. Of course you board the Sacred Grounds, dude!!
Regarding the Stax debate. True, Trini isn't that bad for me. Chalice @ 1 no problem either, but once he's got suppression field, a chalice @ 3, trini and tanglewire in play and ghost qaurtered all ur basic plains it's quite difficult to turn the match round.
I would board blood moon against it's the fear. Nevertheless, the MU is hard cause Plan #2 (play all kind of shit and hope they counter it, so u can put all eggs in one basket and let it fall, cause they counter the replenish) usually doesn't work for several reasons.
1) Normal opponents are not dumb. They know what to counter and how many copies you got of that card.
2) You don't gain any advantage playing random enchantments when there's no engine!
damnation -> I rather ment global effects like diabolic edict, but then my cool alliteration would have lessened in it's effect.
Spiritual Focus is CRAP!!!! No, I didn't look it up, I know that card, own it, and played 3 copies in the board a long long time ago. Even Spreading Algae is better than that card. Focus is only good when u can play it turn 1 or 2 before your opn hymns you. Therefore you can't just "board a copy of Spiritual Focus". What's your strategy there? Mullying till I get one? tutoring it with grove? c'mon, get real.
@1maarten1:
Here's the list of MY current Enchantress if you want to look at it. I used to play 1 City of Solitude and 2 Enlightened Tutors main instead of the Spirit Guides. The board is meta dependant. I don't care much about trying to improve the storm MU by adding orim's chants. Rather play more cards that take care of more relevant matchups. Besides, sometimes Aura of Silence is enough.
// Lands
9 [UNH] Forest
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
2 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
3 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
// Spells
2 [UD] Replenish
1 [ON] Words of War
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [OD] Ground Seal
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
1 [MI] Sacred Mesa
2 [DK] Gaea's Touch
1 [LG] Moat
1 [US] Exploration
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 3 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 2 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
I have been able to beat aggro-loam pretty easily by just fetching Sacred Ground as fast as possible. They can't dreams too fast or it ends up hurting them as much as it does you.
Play multiple enchantments at varying CMCs to beat CB. Oblivion Ring, Aura of Silence, and the Seals are great. Is there a 4cc enchantment to handle CB?
Beating blue is what your SB should be geared towards because that it a large percent of the format right now.
Sacred Ground stops DD?
I always thought it had the same ruling as Karmic Justice. Damn, that's really good, I have to start running that now to beat AL.
Against Black discard, I find that Compost is better than Spiritual Focus.
1) Compost is great against Ichorid. 99 times out of 100, Ichorid is looking to untap after a crazy dredge. If they dredge and then pass the turn, you can destroy them. Obviously you have better bombs, but Compost is very strong in that MU and I usually have stuff I want to board out. Compost on turn 2 can often draw 4-5 cards and let me play down a double Elephant Grass or something before they can win. It also prevents them from dredging to set up a kill because it nets you just as many cards.
I hate Ichorid, so yeah.
2) Compost is good against Cabal Therapy and Sinkhole, worse against Hypnotic Specter and Hymn. Occasionally the life is relevant, but I think they're roughly comparable in the black matchup.
3) It costs 1G which is marginally easier to get.
Thanks for the MU analysis, though, Zach. The AVI quality sucks something awful, but that's kindof how I see the MU.
I have a problem against ITF (well, a variant that was pretty much designed to hose my deck, I guess). It would Deed or Tranquility away my stuff and then shrug off Karmic Justice with Life from the Loam. I mean, I'd clear their land completely, but FoW on the next Enchantress effect and I didn't save anything else.
I dunno, I think my friend's an asshole for running 4x Cunning Wish (with a Tranquility target) and 4 Deed with no targetted removal as a gauntlet test variant of ITF. Still, I don't think that Karmic Justice alone makes us completely immune to board sweepers. Sometimes if we're getting out of hand, Control can just pop the Deed and accept the one-sided Geddon if they have counter backup against the Replenish attempts. And Loam.
I think that's the general style that control players should take against Enchantress, although most of the time it's harder to set up (and they can't Raven's Crime me for 3 a turn to make me lose immediately).
Sacred Ground get's a land back if it was put in your graveyard by an effect controlled by an opponent. Justice asks if it was destroyed by an effect controlled by an opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
You should be able to totally crush them because of that one sided geddon. They may have counter back up but you should have sooooo mnay strong cards against them (Echantresses, Replenish, hate cards, etc) that they wont be able to recover fast enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Spiritual Focus was an option for a while because it doubles against IGG based combo. With the release of Ad Nauseum, I think the card is past its usefulness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AgOn
Ground Seal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Aura of Silence is also crucial vs. Deed.
But against sweepers in general, your best bet is to draw as many cards as possible pre-sweeper, so you have stuff to drop afterwards.
Tranquility tends to kill my Ground Seals. Should I be saving them? I generally play them just to draw two cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
I dunno, maybe 8 sweepers is just too much to fight against, especially with Kgrip and Naturalize as well as Edict. And Bayous for Choke immunity. And more Engineered Explosives. And Wasteland. And Raven's Crime. Now that I think about it, it's kindof a ridiculous MU.
I really like the idea of MDing 1 copy of Choke, though. I normally leave my MB untouched, which doesn't make any sense.
No, I wouldn't save them. But you do have Ground Seal, Replenish, Choke, Groves against KGrip, Dovescape, plus your Enchantresses.
Your post-board list vs control should have at least 20 must-counters.
You guys are running Dovescape, now? Man, I'm way behind.
BTW, tournament results were posted for The Source. Enchantress went 2-6 :-(. It beat Imperial Painter and Faerie Stompy, but lost to MUC (???), Landstill x2 (?), Ichorid (well, ok), Epic Painter (??), and Dragon Stompy (???).
Wut?
I dunno, all of those MUs, except Ichorid, I see as at least slightly favorable (some I see as extremely favorable). With that schedule, I would have expected Solitaire to go 6-2 (probably losing a match to Landstill and the Ichorid match).
Ichorid is definitely favorable. Elephant Grass stalls them for 2-3 turns and Ground Seal stops Dread Return shenanigans. With all that time you can set up easily.
Form my experience Ichorid is far from unfavourable. As Jak said, Elephant Grasss is _the_ way to go against them. If your sb contains some copies of [CARD]Wheel of Sun and Moon[/CARD]...use it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Yeah, I sucked last weekend. I got good match-ups, but my play was really rusty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
8 Forest
3 Plains (Runed Haloes in the Board for stuff like DS and Goblins; getting white is necessary)
4 Sterling Grove
2 Replenish
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Chrome Mox
2 Exploration
2 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Ground Seal
1 Choke (I have been liking this, thanks Spat and Zach)
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Words of War
SB
3 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Blood Moon
2 Karmic Justice
1 Replenish
1 Dovescape
2 Krosan Grip (may want something like Ray of Distortion to get around Chalice and CB better)
1 Sacred Ground
3 Runed Halo
Pretty basic and handles a lot of quality decks. Combo is never going to be that great so I just scrapped it in favor of strengthening my other MUs.
That's kind of the approach I've been considering, also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
I guess you can randomly steal a win off of a Halo or if they go EtW and you have Grass, but playing a little more glass cannon style may be better.
Let us now how that works out.
What's Blood Moon been helping with? I don't see it being of use against blue as a 3rd Choke, since you'd be better with an actual 3rd Choke, so which decks are likely to get crippled by it?
Loam decks, I would think. Though you do already have four Ground Seal. In any case, decks which are full of nonbasics and aren't blue do exist.
For random stuff that Choke does not hit or Blue decks with Deed. It could easily be the third Choke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho