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You don't always have Chalice in hand, or you may not be able to resolve it. In this case, Needle just acts as redundancy. There's also some matchups where Chalice comes out but Needle is still useful, such as ITF/4c Landstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckymartyr
I just started playing this deck recently, and i was curious.
How is it's 43Land matchup?
It seems like it would be miserable for both players. But i think AggroLoam has the edge with Seismic Assault.
Thoughts?
I have played 43land against this deck, and it is a pain. Aggro Loam has a much faster clock, and you are correct about Siesmic Assault. If it hits the table, 43land cannot deal with it, except perhapes post board.
Wretched Banquet B
Sorcery
Destroy target creature with the
least power or tied for least power.
Seems like a decent Wish target instead of Edict, the one mana difference can be crucial, and I haven't seen many creatures around that are bigger than ours :smile:. Probably not good enough for the main since it can't kill 'Nought (and sometimes Tombstalker), but with Wish you'd get Spree for the Nought anyway.
Edict has Flashback, so it's two removal spells in one. This may be cheaper, but Edict often ends up taking the weakest creature anyway, and without targeting.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
Is the consensus that playing burning wish is superior to the no wish builds?
I'm just curious. Is it possible to build a WG Aggro Loam type deck. Perhaps using Crucible of Worlds instead of Loam too.
4 Goyf
4 Terrageddon
4 Knight
4 Armageddon
4 Cataclysm
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory/Treetop Village
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
etc.
How would you do it?
SOLITARY CONFINEMENT BABYYY!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
That is all.
Most people playing the deck seem to see Wish as an auto-include, but some, such as myself, don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckymartyr
As to a WG build...I like the Knight, and I think that with blue being everywhere, 'Geddon might even be as good as Dreams. But getting all of your threats crippled by a single Relic is harsh, and Crusher is perfect at avoiding that. And I wouldn't play Cataclysm as a 4-of since many decks play single large creatures as well, making it into a bad Armageddon.
Hello Guys,
i just want to know what you think about this pile:
MKM Loam
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Devastating Dreams
4 Duress
4 Life from the Loam
2 Raven’s Crime
2 Seismic Assault
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
3 Forgotten Cave
2 Mountain
2 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
1 Offalsnout
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Jund Charm
3 Krosan Grip
1 Devastating Dreams
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
Perhaps anybody have some idea how to increase the Combo-Mu?
If not, feel free to discuss random other points ;)
greetings
Looks too controllish for my taste (Raven's Crime, Explosives, Tops and Witness, but no Terravores - what, even two more Explosives in the board!!!). But if you want to go that route, Burning Wish would fit in very well, especially since drawing Loam seems to be very necessary for your build as DDreams is lacking the interaction with 'Vores.
You have more than enough artifact/enchantment hate if you count the explosives, so either Grip or Grudge isn't necessary. The 'Snout seems random too.
The best addition against combo is a) Thorn of Amethyst b) more discard (Thoughtseizes...which I would play over the Crimes in the maindeck anyway) to prevent them from going off before you can drop Thorn or Chalice. I'd say your matchup becomes decent with +3 Thorn +2 Thoughtseize (if you keep the Crimes maindeck), the additional discard being very needed against Landstill anyway.
So. I don't know how many of you have been keeping up with the Conflux previews, but it looks to be an excellent set. Especially, because, it looks like Aggro Loam will end up with some new additions to the deck. But, I wondered what your folks opinion was on these cards and whether or not they warrant some testing in the deck;
-Path to Exile
-Knight of the Reliquary
I believe that the cards are rather exceptional and should be given some thought, and I will be testing them myself, but I'd almost be willing to say that I'd go back to white for either of these if they are as good as I'm imagining they'll be.
I've already voiced my opinions on Knight, so I'll address Path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham
Recurring Wasteland and DD are both huge control aspects of the aggro-control outlook of this deck. Mana denial allows you to safely get one or two big threats in play and ride them to victory without having to worry much about the opponent interfering through blockers or removal. That said, getting them land seems really, really bad, especially considering that you wouldn't want to play more than 4 Swords and that you will almost always more than make up for the life they gained in your next attack step. Removing their Goyf only to fetch them that second Island they needed to drop Counterbalance seems bad compared to removing their Goyf and then smashing for 10+ with Crusher.
Personally, Aggro, I'd rather give Dreadnought it's extra land since it's easier to control than having to plow through 12+ life if I StP it. But, I guess different methods to different people. The reason why I liked Path to Exile was because it got rid of the creature, isn't color dependent like terminate, and I'm not giving opponents a leg up that can't be easily cut down.
I'm also curious if you'd voice your opinion again on KotR. I can understand the downside since the bonus is only coming from your graveyard, but he does put land into your graveyard, give you other lands, and is a mini-terravore at that. I wouldn't necessarily cut Countryside Crusher for him, but he shows some promise.
Path requires white, which is a splash color. Terminate requires red and black, of which black is a splash color and red is a primary color. Since both require access to a splash color, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham
Life gained off of Swords can almost always be cut down by one swing with Terravore or Crusher, maybe two swings if your guys aren't big yet and you remove a Dreadnought. A basic land can only be dealt with through Devastating Dreams, and it allows them more latitude to do things under a Wastelock.
Basically, you're advocating playing a worse version of Swords in addition to Swords. At least, that's what I'm assuming, since I'd like to think that any white-splash version would run four Swords first and I don't see why you'd need more than four targeted removal spells on top of EE and Deed.
This deck's problem isn't a lack of big creatures - it's swimming in big creatures. The problem is that the deck needs big creatures that don't require the graveyard to be relevant. You're already running Loam as a central engine and Terravore and possibly Tarmogoyf as beaters, making graveyard hate and Chalice/Counterbalance some of the most effective hate pieces an opponent can field against you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkham
Granted, Terravore and Goyf check both graveyards, but that won't change the fact that Leyline makes Terravore difficult to get out of the 3/3 or 4/4 range. Losing Loam makes Devastating Dreams much more one-sidedly devastating (lulz, Mind Twist myself), and one-shot Wastelands are good but not as damaging as Wastelands every turn. Given the number of decks that can either put you on a fast clock (aggressive strategies running Crypt or Relic) or back up their disruption with counters (every Threshold variety, every Landstill variety, etc), you can't always count on using Burning Wish to get yourself out of trouble in a relevant time frame.
Now that the background is out of the way, let's look at Knight. It has three parts that are important from this deck's standpoint: the graveyard clause, the land search, and the :1::g::w: casting cost. In order of increasing importance:
1) The white splash may or may not be comparable to the black splash, but if you don't do four colors you're losing Bob, Stronghold, and discard, which is a lot to lose when you're only getting this and Swords.
2) Searching for lands seems great until you realize that you have to sacrifice lands in order to do it, and specific types of lands at that. You'll rarely sacrifice a Plains more than once, so most often you'll be feeding Taigas to it to get...what? If you get and use Wasteland, you've essentially done the same thing as just playing and using a Wasteland, except now you're down a colored source that you can't get back next turn if you want to use Wasteland again. However, for the sake of argument, let's assume you've got Exploration and your opponent Magical Hacked his Urborg to make all lands into Forests. Why is this ability better than simply going into blue and using Intuition? Intuition can find you lands from a toolbox in addition to finding you Dreams, Wishes, Loams, Vores, Crushers, Goyfs...as far as a tutor goes, Intuition is so much more powerful it isn't funny. And this is ignoring how much worse this guy's ability gets without an active Loam (Intuition for land, land, Loam gets around this). It also ignores the fact that using the ability requires him to tap, which in this deck precludes him from attacking...which is what you want your big guys to do.
3) Mini-Terravore seems cool until you realize that this guy doesn't trample and can never get as big as Terravore or Crusher. Furthermore, you're using yet another creature that needs your graveyard to actually be good, making your opponent's Crypts, Leylines, and Relics that much more relevant and painful. Sure, he's a 2/2 after a Crypt, but the only hate piece that one-hit kills Terravore is Relic, so Vore will almost certainly be bigger after a Crypt or Leyline. Furthermore, a two power guy in Legacy that doesn't say "Draw an extra card every turn" or "Target opponent can't play a problem spell or your choice" or "Your whole team gets haste and costs less too" probably isn't a good two power guy. He can't even find you cycling lands to power up Loam.
Even if we ignore that whole "I'm deliberately making my opponent's hate better" aspect, how are you going to fit this guy in? 4 Goyf, 4 Crusher, 4 Terravore, some number of this guy? Great, now you've got at least twelve big guys. How does that improve any of your bad matchups? You're still getting ass-raped by combo, you're still going to have trouble with decks running Counterbalance, you're still not going to be happy to see Deed and a card-drawing engine across the table from you. Basically, you've cut relevant slots to add redundancy, and unnecessary redundancy at that. Of course, we could imagine a situation where the opponent runs 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Swords, 4 PtE, 4 Relic, 4 Planar Void, in which case Knight would be better than Terravore and might be on par with Crusher. But any deck running all of those cards is going to be Shitty.deck. In a more realistic situation, this guy is worse than Terravore and Crusher and probably worse than Goyf in the early- to mid-game, and his land search ability is slow and worse than other available options in a fourth color (Intuition).
If he had a bigger starting body or cost less, I'd say he's worthwhile. As it is, he's the weakest option the deck realistically has for the "Huge Three Mana Guy" slot.
Hello, my name is Kolt Beauchamp and I am a Legacy addict. This is my first post.
This is directed toward Donnharts post of MKM Loam.
I like the raven's crime in the deck. They give you another outlet to the lands you draw from lftl and mid to late game you just emptied you opponents hand. I see some people not running seismic assault or ravens crime, no real out let to all the lands they get from lftl. sure you have cycling lands, but you dont' always have them in your grave and espeically 3 of them. What i really like about this deck is being able to lftl the full 3 lands when possible and not worrying about terravore early game being to small and knowing soon you will get a ravens crime in the grave then you can just empty your hand of lands and your opponent loses their hand.
My biggest concern is what do you do against an early dark confidant or a tarmogoyf?
With only 2 DD , 2 seismic assault and 2 EE as creature removal i fell it is too slow to deal with early must deal with threats like dark confidant. And as we all know, leaving a dark confidant unattended usually means gg.
Also dealing with tarmogoyf, i find this deck has a very hard time. Either have to get seismic and lftl online or EE it away. Devastating dreams usually can't take it out. This is speaking from frustration of facing this BG deck. Lots of creature hate like diabolic edict, smother, slaughter pack etc. Lots of times he plays goyf, i respond with goyf, he kills my goyf and swings. I play countery side crusher, he smothers it. swings with goyf. i play terravore. he play slaughter pack. swing with goyf. I have DD in my hand and seismic assault but DD'ing will not kill his goyf but instead just turn it into a 5/6 from its current 4/5. Plus he had wasteland hassling.
I suggest slashing white. put in 4 stp. or some other point removal for the above mentioned. take out the sensei's diving top maybe.
SB for combo match up. Gaddock Teeg answers belcher, cephalid breakfast, TES plus stops force of will wrath of god, decree of justice nervenrayls disk, humilty etc in land still. Splashing white adds stp option as well. Other wise chalice as you already have plus chalice hurts sligh and thresh. also thorn amethyst is good.
Also donnhart at ASL Legacy 17.01.09 what deck did you lose to and what couldn't the deck deal with? I would guess merfolk with mind harness...
Welcome to the Aggro Loam thread.
As to 'Goyf, I understand it to be frustrating playing against removal.dec, but Aggro Loam rarely has problems in dealing with a Goyf. It sometimes happens that the deck can't get through a defending Goyf for a couple of turns, but actually losing to Goyf beats is not very common.
oops ^^
I am not totaly sure, but a lot of people say/think combo decks like TES/ANT are (by far) our worst nightmare (matchup).
my experience against those decks is pretty good, with main wastelock/dd/chalice and side 4 thorns i just seem to win a lot :smile:
my record on tournaments is against ANT 2-0, 2-0 and against TES 2-1, 2-0, 1-2.
How do you guys experience this matchup?
From the ANT side, I've never lost a match to Aggro Loam. Chalices and Thorns are owned by Serenities and bounce. Never got Wastelocked (which can't happen before turn 3), as my opponent was always busy playing things to impose a relevant/threatening board position.Quote:
Originally Posted by kroelai