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IGG is also great against quick aggro/burn that can take a large chunk on turn 2 (Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lightning? So I start at 10 life for Ad Nauseam after tapping my City of Brass for mana?). With IGG, you can pretty much ignore that.
Though I guess you can Diminishing Returns too and win from there....but IGG just kills so consistently.
I don't think it's necessary, I haven't ran IGG in the MD for a month and I'm still beating aggro with out problems, I actually prefer ETW in that slot because it's not a brick and it improves the odds you'll draw into a kill condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
You can still IGG loop with Burning Wish or just SB IGG in game 2, all you need is redundancy vs Meddling Mage for Infernal Tutor. It's useful, but it's not really a sacred cow any more.
I can see your reasoning here, but I just like having another MB storm engine. 1 MD EtW isn't bad either and is actually golden in a decent amount of matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
On another note, I decided to give Mystical Tutor a shot in this deck (in place of Ponder). I've only goldfished like 30 games, but my impression is that it's decent. There's still the very glaring problem of card disadvantage from putting it ontop of deck, which in return also slows down the potential turn 1 kills (that are actually made possible quite often by the support of Ponder - at least in my experience). Although I will admit that the setup it provides is strong.
Actually, I'd use it in addition to ponder. It's not decent, it's fantastic. See, here is where Manamorphose comes in very handy. It cantrips for free* (we all know what I mean). After AdN, it's very easy to tutor for U (Chrome mox imprinting Ponder/BS or use Petal, or drop your rainbow land, w/ever). Play more of your mana accel, cantrip into your win. It's VERY handy. I only run it as a 2x of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
I run a 2/3/4/ split of Ponder, Mystical Tutor, and Brainstorm, respectively.
Pce,
--DC
I can see that. I'll try it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Another thing -- I was testing the Dreadstill matchup a few days back, and it is freakin rough. They pack a ludicrously annoying counterspell suite, improved by maindeck Stifle effects, backed by a significantly fast clock. Truly a nightmare of a matchup. How do you guys usually play it through? Resolved CB makes me facepalm every time.
Dreadstill is a hellacious matchup for all storm combo, as far as I know. Your best plan against them is to hope they don't have Dreadnought early, play enough Duress/Chant effects to push through either AN or IGG, and win from there. Don't expect the matchup to ever become positive, regardless of maindeck configuration or sideboarding. Sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I participated with a TES Build with 4 Mystical Tutor in the Legacy Sideevent of the PT Berlin (anything among 110 and 120 participants). I finished 4-4, which was ridicoulus considered my Matchups.
Mystical was worse than anything else could have been.
Seriously, I've tested it in the Landstill and Thresh Matchups, where it wasn't great, but still okay (okay, it's really terific against Landstill and MUC, but that's it). The reason why it sucks here is (to repeat it one more time) that the intention of TES is to race hate, where other fastcombodecks like FT oder ANT are build to play around the hate.
To the tournament itself:
My MD was really standard, I just cut 1 Ponder, both Apes and anything (the 4th Mox I think) for 4 Mystical Tutor.
My SB was different, I ran Dark Confidant over Shusher (I exspected more Suicide than Thresh) and an Echoing Truth (one free slot, wohee)
Round 1 vs. Sligh - lost 1:2
Game 1 wasn't a problem, game 2 we both mull down to 6, I kept a hand with Petal, 2 Dark Ritual, 1 RoF, 1 Brainstorm and a CoB. I never see a tutor, so that a Figure of Destiny and Burn were able to rip my ass.
Game 3 I didn't have the solutions for 1 Ethersworn Canonist and a Chant, the second chant ist backbreakin' my last hope was a BS into Double Chant / Duress+Chant to get rid of his chant and don't die to Tarmobeatz. BS reveals redundant Tutors, after the Game he revealed me his hand with the 2nd Canonist.
Round 2 vs. Rock - win 2:0
Those games were never a problem.
I 'looped' over Iggy-Pop both games turn 2 and 3 I think
Round 3 vs. Survival - lost 1:2
Game 1 I win, he just has Birds+Bayou in play after he mulliganed down to 5 and I duressed him, so tried EtW and won.
Game 2 his disruption wasn't fun, I used Mystical Tutor to get another D.Ritual ( I don't know if this was a mistake, on the one side I was afraid of Therapy, let him grap nearly all my acceleration, on the other side there was a Cabal Ritual in my GY allready, so tutorin for this would have made me vulnerable to Extirpate, because he allready played a Therapy and flashbacked it I decided to search another Dark Ritual).
I passed my turn, he draw, grined an play Cabal Therapy. I was unable to rest from this and died to Teeg&Goyf.
Game 3 he got a fast Teeg, a play a Confi.
Since then I tried to play around, but his disruption always bought him time to beat me, after a few rounds my only chance was Burning Wish -> Grapeshot to get rid of Teeg, he has the 2nd one, so now I play Mystical Tutor ->Echoing Truth (there was one slot in the sideboard, and just cause I allready played Mysticals I decided to try it). But was unable to play it and combo of, so I wait to bounce him Teeg in his EoT, he drawed a card, grined and showed me the Thoughtseize, with Savannah+Forest open - GG
Round 4 vs ??? - lost
Round 5 vs. Eva Green - won 2:1
Game 1 EtW just shined and was rapin' him.
Game 2 he got a start with Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymm, I never recovered from this and Tarmogoyf slowly killed me.
Game 3 he put me under pressure with Tarmo and discard, lastly I tried D.Returns and as my last possibility it worked out gret and I won.
Round 6 vs. ??? - won
Round 7 vs. Imperial Painter (by ead) - loss 1:2
Hell yeah, everybody with a 5/x/x finish would receive 9 Booster, and now I either kick my teamdude out of prices or get kicked by him...
Game 1 I won, thanks to EtW.
Game 2 his 1st turn 3sphere was a timewalk 5 times and enabled him to beat me to death with Jaye and an Ape.
Game 3 he hast a 3rd Turn Kill, I've to trye D.Returns with only U floating after that, I fizzled.
Round 8 vs. Goblins - won 2:1
Game 1 was a 2nd Turnkill over Iggy.
Game 2 I hold a hand with double Mystical Tutor to kill him turn 3, he killed me turn 3 otP 8[
Game 3 was just AN->Win.
I don't know why I only finished 4-4, I think I didn't make any mistakes, but maybe I just shut my eyes to my own fault...
Especially for combo decks, mistakes tend to be be unnoticeable, but very important. Cantrip decisions, mulligans.... All very minor things you can easily do wrong without noticing.Quote:
Originally Posted by myselves
Here's what I use M. Tutor for. Oh, before I get into it, I'm going to say playstyle is very important for it to be of use. I'm a FT player normally, switching to this for a bit of a break every now and then, and it's my personal opinion that M. Tutor is a must in AdN TES. It's how I've played storm for a year, and it's one of my favorite cards for storm. It works for me. If it doesn't for you, don't play it. I just wanted to let people know that it DOES work, and it is good in many matchups (more than just the control MU's).
Ok, here's what I use M. Tutor for:
--Grab Chant, Accel., and most importantly, Ad Nauseam (I run it as a singleton).
--Post-AdN to grab anything I may need to win via (like I stated above) Manamorphose. I will say that it is often dead after AdN, but then again, so is Ponder/BS. At least for me...
--Draw out counterspells. EoT M. Tutor should be considered a must-counter. If you are simply using it as bait and have your combo in-hand and it does happen to resolve, I just grab a Chant or burning wish depending on the situation. When I'm goldfishing out against random irrelevant decks, I've been known to grab Manamorphose. Then, I manamorphose into manamorphose for an extra +1 storm count...
Here's a fairly common play I do:
Requirements: 1x Land, any 2x combo of LED/C. Rit/D. Rit capable of being cast of a single land (no LED+C. Rit, and no 2x C. Rit), M. Tutor.
Turn 1: Land, LED, go.
Eo their turn 1: M. Tutor==>AdN
Turn 2: Dark Rit, pop LED during Upkeep, Draw AdN and combo off.
Alternatively:
Turn 1: Land, go.
Eo their turn 1: M. Tutor ==>AdN
Turn 2: Play land #2, Chant, Rit, Rit, AdN.
I'm aware these are basic, but the principle is basic in itself. Also, this is a very straight-forward combo list that doesn't take a metric fuck-ton of skill to play in very many matchups (either that, or I'm lucky...).
Also, Manamorphose allows for you to go off with AdN without having a black mana accel, which is something SSG does not enable.
Pce,
--DC
Why? Why wouldn't you counter the tutored spell and make your opponent waste a drawstep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
BB
You keep throwing in these little snippets of merit for Manamorphose. Black acceleration is the most common form of accel in the deck, in fact there would be even more if you cut the card for Cabal Rituals. Also... Rainbow Lands?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Manamorphose allows you to go off without black mana acclerants. Okay? So you're saying... that if you're able to make a bunch of Red mana, but unable to make any Black mana, then Manamorphose can filter that mana into Black to play AdN. Goodness. The only situation I can think of where this is possible is where you're on one land and casting multiple Rite of Flames. Can you elaborate on this a bit? Perhaps provide realistic applications for this use?
I don't have nearly enough experiance with FT or any build of TES with mystical tutors to be able to say for sure but i think they would counter to stop you from being able to stock up on multiple chant effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
With this logic, what's the difference between countering a Mystical Tutor + Orim's Chant versus countering two Orim's Chants?Quote:
Originally Posted by ebbitten
It's pretty common knowledge not to counter setup tutors, but rather the devastating spell itself. They're losing card advantage by casting tutors, and in the case of Mystical, an entire draw step.
Mostly, it depends on which counters your opponents have available. If you tap out for Mystical, it will bite a Daze. If they have enough mana to play those 2 Counterspells they have in hand, tutor might resolve, unless there is some Split Second card that will cripple them. You can't generalize ever, so saying Mystical Tutor is a must counter is kind of a misconception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
I think its if theyre holding counterspells that cost mana and wouldn't have enough to cast them all in the same turn? I'm really not sure, only guessingQuote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
Well, this example was about Mystical EOT, so they won't get an untap anyway.Quote:
I think its if theyre holding counterspells that cost mana and wouldn't have enough to cast them all in the same turn? I'm really not sure, only guessing
if they expect it to be over a couple turns? not a very likely situation in any case.Quote:
Originally Posted by loop
They don't know what's in your hand barring a Thoughtseize/Duress. They don't know what you are going to tutor for. In my opinion, this makes it a threat as I don't like to err in their favor, and I'd rather make them have to topdeck like Chuck Norris than let them hit Ad Nauseam backed up by double-chant. I normally use one tutor per game. When I do, it's for the last piece of my combo (Ad Nasueam 90% of the time), and if I grab chant then I have the combo already and am looking for protection, or I'm planning ahead and expecting counters (In this situation, it's a win/win for me as I'm looking for the mystical to hit a counter-If it doesn't, the chant will, and if not, I've won). This is normally the case when most people use M. Tutor as far as I've seen. In essence, you can often gain at least another turn by just countering Mystical Tutor.Quote:
Why? Why wouldn't you counter the tutored spell and make your opponent waste a drawstep.
This is all simply my philosophy as to how I play my deck, and also my experiences while being a storm player, and a thrash player against storm combo.
When you talk theory of a deck, especially storm combo,you must realize that wierd situations happen all the time. Remember, you do have red mana accel, and most of the time you don't want to EtW, so burning wish into EtW becomes unacceptable since I'm talking about a situation with only red mana accel, especially if it is for a situation like Petal, Rite, Rite, Rite, Burning Wish-->ETW for 10 tokens. I would rather go Rite, Rite, Rite, Manamorphose, AdN and continue to win that turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Basically what I'm trying to say is that while black accel is the main kind of mana-ramp, it's important to keep in mind that red is also in the list. Isn't that the partly the theory that SSG speaks to in the first place? I see no reason not to maintain that mindset with Manamorphose.
Also, 10 lands is low, and while we do run a set of petal and several Mox, often you won't see more than one land before you AdN. According to basic math, it's 2 lands per every 10 cards. If you are on the play, that's 3 turns if no cantrips are played (I realize that isn't exactly logical, but I can't do the math any better; it's not my fort'e). I suppose if you brainstorm once, you see 11 cards total, and if you Ponder each time and shuffle and draw each time (showing you the most cards possible) you see something like 21 cards total, but 3 of those minimum are Ponder, so it's 17 cards to work with minus the land and 3 ponder. Also if you did this and the land you were using was a Gemstone Mine, you suddenly have to hit another land. I mention this because you say rainbow lands like it's a solve-all for the color-scheme. Also keep in mind that while we do win quickly, a Wasteland slows you down more than anyone seems to give it credit for.
As for my "snippets of merit" for Manamorphose (which are admittedly bountiful even in this post): I think it's a good card that has served me well. It's also my opinion that people not hugely invested in storm tend to take the word of those who are (Emidln, Bryant, etc.), and while storm combo tends to mostly end in a Tendrils ftw, how people get there often varies. Playstyle and thought process are important parts of playing storm. What works for some doesn't for others, as they think different. If you don't like Manamorphose, don't play it, but it is an acceptable card for a combo list, especially one that runs Mystical Tutor and red mana accel.
Pce,
--DC
Wierd situations don't happen all the time. That's like... a direct contradiction. Both of the situations that you stated for Manamorphose mana fixing into Black for AdN required 3 Rite of Flames. Drawing 1 is about 40%, and that gets exponentially smaller for multiple cards. Yes, I have drawn three Rite of Flames before, but I have never drawn three Rite of Flames AND wished that one of the other cards in my hand were a Manamorphose to cast an AdN because I couldn't come up with any black. That is a grossly unlikely situation to come across. You criticized SSG for not being able to fix mana, but can't come up with a probable situation for it to matter. SSG gives you +1 mana. I like that alot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Playing Manamorphose isn't a playstyle decision. You cannot justify the card, especially in a storm combo deck that way, because there is usually a correct way to play your hand out that has nothing to do with playstyle.
You blind your decision based on the fact that you run Mystical Tutor and more Red Rituals, but the synergy with those cards and situations where the card will win you the game will happen much less often than situations where holding Manamorphose will STOP you from winning the game. The inconsistencies of the card will come out much more often than its positives. Playing a card that nets you mana will give you a much stronger deck. Manamorphose isn't terrible, but it's pretty clearly suboptimal. In a weak metagame you will get by playing it, but theres no sense in not playing the strongest deck possible.
No, Simian Spirit Guide was added because it's 0 mana acceleration, which protects the deck from Daze and produces R for Rite of Flame, Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens after Diminishing Returns (or now after Ad Nauseam). Manamorphose is just an ugly, unpredictable card in this deck that often reverse Time Walks you against Daze and is a total blank after the Draw 7. The two cards literally have absolutely nothing to do with each other and you can't use SSG as pseudo justification for sub-optimal mana filters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Edit: Damn, beaten to the punch.