[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

I'm doing fine with 14 lands, but maybe testing will show me that another land is better than another Ponder.

I had the same feeling for the 3 Crypts, nice that someone could confirm this.
Well, we have 2 BW decks here in our Meta which both run Tidehollow Sculller. Slaughter Pact sucks against him, but costs less against normal hate bears, I know.
Is Echoing Truth that good? Against which matchups is it better than other bounce? Mainly Ichorid and Storm with EtW, right?
The Duress are there for the mirror, though 1 Silence might be enough. Needs more testing.
Adding a second land to the SB makes me hesitant. I know it can be vital, but I got no clue whether it would be worth it. We have 1 Merfolk player that sometimes plays 4 Stifle, sometimes doesn't and 1 who plays TA or Canadian. Gah, i guess I just confirmed it being useful.

Thanks for the help!

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Originally Posted by Nidd

I'm doing fine with 14 lands, but maybe testing will show me that another land is better than another Ponder.

I had the same feeling for the 3 Crypts, nice that someone could confirm this.
Well, we have 2 BW decks here in our Meta which both run Tidehollow Sculller. Slaughter Pact sucks against him, but costs less against normal hate bears, I know.
Is Echoing Truth that good? Against which matchups is it better than other bounce? Mainly Ichorid and Storm with EtW, right?
The Duress are there for the mirror, though 1 Silence might be enough. Needs more testing.
Adding a second land to the SB makes me hesitant. I know it can be vital, but I got no clue whether it would be worth it. We have 1 Merfolk player that sometimes plays 4 Stifle, sometimes doesn't and 1 who plays TA or Canadian. Gah, i guess I just confirmed it being useful.

Thanks for the help!

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Against anything that isn't blue, you want to board out Chants for bounce. I prefer Echoing Truths because they randomly bounce multiples and they get around Chalice at one, which is quite a common hate card people play.

I think more Chants are better for the mirror than Duress. The opponent is going to have a hard time when you have more Chants than he does.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

We board in the Snow-Covered mountains to pretend to have a transformational sideboard to mono red Quinn.

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No that's because you did not want to let the world know they were actually Carpet of Flowers. Well now they know!

..............................................Again!

Now they got me thinking, is Carpet of Flowers just plain better than Xantid Swarm?

Xantid is awesome against Merfolk.

Carpet is awesome against Tempo ***** and good against Merfolk.

Xantid shuts down all their counters, but it eats removal against *****.

The Carpet turn Daze/Cursecatch/Stilfe(to a degree) into a joke.

So, is it better to just play 4 Carpets and pray you get more Chants than they get FoWs?

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Burning Wish is a fucking good card.

It really speeds up the deck, gives you more virtual finishers and allow you to play Empty the Warrens, which sometimes on the first or second turn is as good as Tendrils for 20.

The problem is that you need UBW, then you need green for Krosan Grip and Xantid swarm. Adding red turns it into 5 color storm, for that's just stretching the mana base too much.

Chants are just superior to discard most of the time. That's why I would never play straight NLS, 5 discard spells as protection just don't cut it for me. They still leave you vunerable to stuff like Spell Snare, Stifle, etc.

I don't know what the solution is.

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It's not that withot green, you can't go anywhere. Pyroblasts are as good as Xantid as protection, of course they do not provide Chant effects but they are far more flexible and can kill anything, from Cursecatcher to Vendilion Clique, and do not require a turn to operate. Lately, I've also noticed that more and more blue decks are keeping removal spells g2 against combo, because they expect some switchoff into creature protection/utility (Dark confidant, Xantid Swarm, Vexing Shusher). The only deck against which I see Xantid being totally busted is Merfolks, but you should already be able to beat a sb'ed Merfolk.
Plus, Blasts can get rid of Counterbalance on the spot. Often CB+Top players hold hands without any counter but with CB because they think that CB is the ultimate weapon against us, that can win them the game alone. Here a good package of Duress+Pyroblast can really help you in both discarding or countering it, a thing that Chant effects don't do. And waiting too much to hold the Krosan Grip to destroy it is a clear sign that you hold one of the traditional cc3 CB hate combo uses to pack (Wipe Away, KGrip), so the more time you give to them, the more they understand y have of them in hand. Of course KGrip is > to Pyroblast since Split Second, but you can get it even with Pyroblast.

That said, I'd like to show my last DDTES list. The maindeck is practically Citanul's one with small tweaks, but the sideboard has some tools to fight against all the Tiers.

// Lands

4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [b] Tundra
1 [b] Volcanic Island
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
1 [UG] Island

// Spells

1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [TE] Meditate
1 [WL] Doomsday

4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
2 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
2 [JU] Burning Wish

4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [LRW] Ponder

2 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [M10] Silence
3 [US] Duress

4 [b] Dark Ritual
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [b] Volcanic Island
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [M10] Silence
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [10E] Deathmark
SB: 1 [US] Meltdown
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River

-As you can see, it's DDANT with Burning Wishes to have a comfortable shortcut in the form of EtW and also to not suffer crap like Extract or Extirpate on Tendrils (happens, especially now that combo is on the steady rise), and also an out to some things like Gaddock Teeg in g1. Plus, with BWish you rise your threat density a lot, and enables double IGG loops by wishing for the Infernal tutor and going IGG, OR wishing for an IGG having already an IT in the yard, and double looping your opponent out. But you already knew this, didn't you? ^^

-Differently from Citanul, I opted to mix the protection between Duress and Chant because I felt 6 Chants sometimes slowed down the deck too much, in the fact that you're going to cast them in the big turn (except for bluffs, of course). Duress not only can be cast before, it also nets you information about the opponent's deck, and make you know the proper way to go off (if I see Spell Snare, I'll try to Doomsday-kill him, ecc).

-I also prefer to have Duress rather than Chant against things like, say, Zoo. While the argument that Chant slow them down a turn can be accepted, it is partially true because you're almost never going to chant them on turn1, since you do not know what they're playing (in the first game),with the risk of wasting a potential protection against blue; usually Zoo makes a critter on the 1st turn, so you can Chant them the turn after preventing to play, say, a Goyf, but it's not a great deal considering that they'll just beat yu with their Nacatl, and play the Goyf the turn after.
Duress instead can get rid of Burn spells, and most of all lets you know if you can go for a quick Ad Nauseam victory without the inconvenient of getting a Bolt+Fireblast when you're low on life.

-Plus, Duress is more synergic with Burning Wish when you're going to make 10+ tokens, and need to know if they have a mass removal in hand. That's a thing Chant can't really do.


-The manabase probably needs still some tweaking, the greatest indecision is whether or not to cut a Tundra for a Scrubland, because Scrubland allows you to bluff a double chant or to cast a Dark ritual in response to a daze on Chant to trick the opponent. The Swamp is more probably going to stay there, in the end it's a solid UB base with only 3 cards for white, and 2 for red, so differently from the 6 chants version (where the white presence must be emphatized, thus the lack of a second basic), this list can afford a basic swamp.

For the Sb:
-I tried to mix The 16th land there will help you finding red more easily, as well as supporting Meltdown and giving you another land against land destruction decks. Increasing your land count is something very important against these decks, where 15 is usually not enough to avoid being manascrewed or stuck on only 1 land. Perhaps that could be a Badlands, but if I switch the Tundra to a Scrubland (which I have done now, btw), I should be comfortable in having enough black lands.

-The other slots are the usual Wishboard+artifact solutions, and hate bears' ones. I also pack Rushing River because it's a 4th reactive answer against CB, but it's also great against Chalice&Trini decks.

-The 4th Chant is there to come in against Tempo decks,and Daze+Force ones, as well as Landstill.

Tell me what you think about this.

Angel's Grace could very well be a meta choice; if people play large amounts of zoo / sligh / burn, it seems good with Ad Nauseum.

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Tell me what you think about this.

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You changed the manabase to it's original form. I used to play the maindeck Swamp but never felt that it was needed. After switching to full Chant effects I replaced it with a 9th fetch. I don't know if it's needed to add the Swamp again even though you run Duress. The alteration I used between fetch was just to avoid splash damage from hate such as Pithing Needle or even Extirpate.

I do agree that running Duress is better than running Chants when you expect Counterbalance based decks. But it's just worse than chant effects against blue non-Counterbalance based decks. Duress does not protect you from SDT floating a card or them having a counter in their graveyard for IGG-Loops, Chant does. So this decision is a mostly a metagame call.
But even then, I do not find Duress to be enough against CB decks. They often hide it with Brainstorm or have placed it second down with their turn1 Ponder. They can just topdeck it! And I hate luck factors.

I ran Pyroblasts as well during a tournament but never faced a CB based deck all day long so they did nothing. What I did notice is that people side in Blue Elemental Blast when you show them your Burning Wish. I sometimes side those out which creates death cards in their deck. With your sideboard you just give them more targets for it.

I wanted to bring up the latest deck on deckcheck.

5 Color Ad Nauseam

He's playing a 5 color DD version with only 1 top! >.< He placed 3rd.

Weirdest version I've never seen.

He is playing 1 top.
The manabase is completely f**ked. (9 fetches, no duals, 1 island, 4 city of brass)
8 chant effects

Am I missing something here??

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Originally Posted by CUB3X

I wanted to bring up the latest deck on deckcheck.

5 Color Ad Nauseam

He's playing a 5 color DD version with only 1 top! >.< He placed 3rd.

Weirdest version I've never seen.

He is playing 1 top.
The manabase is completely f**ked. (9 fetches, no duals, 1 island, 4 city of brass)
8 chant effects

Am I missing something here??

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I feel like the decklist is wrong. I don't see how that is playable, even in an event of only 13 people.

Didn't you know that City of Brass can be fetched?
N00bs

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Didn't you know that City of Brass can be fetched?
N00bs

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This is why I run fetchlands in my Ichorid! Who needs to fetch weak 2 color lands when I can fetch awesome 5 color lands!

/joke

I've been really wanting to test out this deck again. I played Iggy Pop for a long time, swapped to TES eventually, and have played ANT a few times since it's come out.

One of my biggest fears when I play this deck is Sadistic Sacrament. I've seen this card played more and more lately. It's gotten to the point where I want to just do one maindecked Tendrils and IGG and then have some number of Burning Wish. I just wouldn't do the DD route with this plan as the slots are kinda squished. Anyone have ideas on combating SS other than "Play another deck"?

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Originally Posted by chokin

This is why I run fetchlands in my Ichorid! Who needs to fetch weak 2 color lands when I can fetch awesome 5 color lands!

/joke

I've been really wanting to test out this deck again. I played Iggy Pop for a long time, swapped to TES eventually, and have played ANT a few times since it's come out.

One of my biggest fears when I play this deck is Sadistic Sacrament. I've seen this card played more and more lately. It's gotten to the point where I want to just do one maindecked Tendrils and IGG and then have some number of Burning Wish. I just wouldn't do the DD route with this plan as the slots are kinda squished. Anyone have ideas on combating SS other than "Play another deck"?

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NLS plays around this, and is still a DD storm deck at heart, even more so if you play emidln's version that has 4x Burning Wish.

Tempo matchups won't be so easy w/o chants, but I suppose you can try citanul's version without green (which subsequently makes your CB matchups harder - can't win em all boys).

Hey all,

I'd like to start playing storm combo but I see so many versions, I'm not sure where to begin.

Is there a primer on ANT/DDANT/TES comparing the three and giving details as to why one over the other?

If not, can you guys give me a bit of direction as to why I would choose one over the other?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by neenjafus

Hey all,

I'd like to start playing storm combo but I see so many versions, I'm not sure where to begin.

Is there a primer on ANT/DDANT/TES comparing the three and giving details as to why one over the other?

If not, can you guys give me a bit of direction as to why I would choose one over the other?

Thanks!

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You can read about TES in the established decks forum. The author points out some differences between ANT and TES in the thread - the main one being no fetchlands which means you can't get your lands stifled but on the other hand you can't shuffle away useless stuff like Chrome Mox with fetch + Brainstorm, unless you have both Brainstorm and Ponder in hand and the mana to cast them. So ANT is more capable of sculpting a good hand by deck manipulation, and this might just be personal preference but I don't think you should ever give up on that. I have never played DDANT but many people seem to think it's the best. As far as I know it hasn't put up the same results as ANT yet though.

that makes sense. It does seem as if TES can be a bit faster but I have noticed that it seems to have a bit less deck manipulation.

I guess I should just try both and see what I like, there aren't many more cards I'd need to build both.

Thanks!

Hello everyone. I have yet to take AnT to a tournament, but I am considering playing it this weekend. However, I'm still quite unsure on sideboarding with this deck. Deciding which cards to put in is usually pretty straightforward, but which do you take out?

I'm playing a 6 Chant, 2 Top-build, 1 AdN, 1 IGG, no DD.

Let's say i'm playing against Merfolk. Then I would like to add, like, Pyroblast, Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers or whatever depending on the SB. But what to take out? Chants are still very useful, so I'd prefer not to remove to many of them, but in adding cards in a fourth color perhaps means I should just replace them since I have to change 1-2 lands too? The same goes with most Blue-based decks against which the Chants work very well. I want Krosan Grip in to be able to handle Counterbalance, but again, what to take out? Mana acceleration?

Is this a keepable hand G1 against an unknown opponent?

Top, Fetch, Fetch, Island, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Orim's Chant

I am inclined to say no, but you have two shuffles to find stuff. Is this line of thinking just dumb? Or is it worth to gamble? (I especially hate being down cards with Tendrils decks.)

I am playing citanul's list except for -1 Silence, +1 Top.

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Originally Posted by easyrider

Is this a keepable hand G1 against an unknown opponent?

Top, Fetch, Fetch, Island, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Orim's Chant

I am inclined to say no, but you have two shuffles to find stuff. Is this line of thinking just dumb? Or is it worth to gamble? (I especially hate being down cards with Tendrils decks.)

I am playing citanul's list except for -1 Silence, +1 Top.

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That is a very, very keepable hand.
I wish I opened like that every game.

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

That is a very, very keepable hand.
I wish I opened like that every game.

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I wish it too.

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Originally Posted by easyrider

Is this a keepable hand G1 against an unknown opponent?

Top, Fetch, Fetch, Island, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Orim's Chant

I am inclined to say no, but you have two shuffles to find stuff. Is this line of thinking just dumb? Or is it worth to gamble? (I especially hate being down cards with Tendrils decks.)

I am playing citanul's list except for -1 Silence, +1 Top.

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It's a nice hand! I'd play Island, Top. Then next turn you can brainstorm, fetch and look with top. It's a good hand to have a protected win on turn 3 or 4, so it's quite good against most matchups.

Thanks for the responses. I haven't played a Tendrils list with Top in it, so I think that I am just misjudging the ability to find a Tutor, Wish, etc.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

It's a nice hand! I'd play Island, Top. Then next turn you can brainstorm, fetch and look with top. It's a good hand to have a protected win on turn 3 or 4, so it's quite good against most matchups.

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Well, I would play Island, play Top, use Top on my Upkeep and eventually crack a Fetch when I want to Brainstorm/shuffle.

What's better now?

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Well, I would play Island, play Top, use Top on my Upkeep and eventually crack a Fetch when I want to Brainstorm/shuffle.

What's better now?

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In general it is better to draw your card, play Brainstorm, fetch and then SDT. You'll see 7 cards this way. With your play you see 6 if you reshuffle. If there's 2 on top that you like then you'll see 3.

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Originally Posted by citanul

In general it is better to draw your card, play Brainstorm, fetch and then SDT. You'll see 7 cards this way. With your play you see 6 if you reshuffle. If there's 2 on top that you like then you'll see 3.

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I disagree. It depends on my matchup. If I'm playing against non-blue, I'd Brainstormto shuffle away the Chant. If I was playing against blue, my hand is already really strong and I'd rather wait for some moment where Brainstorm can actually improve my hand.

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I disagree. It depends on my matchup. If I'm playing against non-blue, I'd Brainstormto shuffle away the Chant. If I was playing against blue, my hand is already really strong and I'd rather wait for some moment where Brainstorm can actually improve my hand.

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I'm not talking about the hand given in the example. I'm just talking in general. Overall it is better to do x than to do y.
But it's always dependant on matchups and starting hands as in how many dead cards.

Edit: Just checked the hand. It is indeed better to top during upkeep with that hand if it's against blue. It's better to draw and play Brainstorm if you need to go off quickly like against an agressive deck.

Jap's play Legacy too - All time favourite arguably best player in the world Tomoharu Saito won a 178 tourney with this 3-color ANT list:

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

I like the City of Traitors.. If in doubt regarding anything (not just magic but life in general) - just do what Tomoharu Saito does!

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Originally Posted by lillelassie

Jap's play Legacy too - All time favourite arguably best player in the world Tomoharu Saito won a 178 tourney with this 3-color ANT list:

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rebuild
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

I like the City of Traitors.. If in doubt regarding anything (not just magic but life in general) - just do what Tomoharu Saito does!

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Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot. I respect the player because he's a powerhouse and all, but I've seen better ANT sbs.

The only thing I can think off is Hydroblast as a permanent answer to Pyrostatic Pillar - but yea bounce does the same thing I guess.. Rebuild is for rare occations of chalice at 1 and 2? It can also add to storm count in some degree I guess.. I guess I like his SB of 1-offs since its alot of different answers to alot of different hate - but I am biased in every way possible cause I love him so much!

Isn't Thoughtseize an autoshock for AN?? Duress could fit better...

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

Isn't Thoughtseize an autoshock for AN?? Duress could fit better...

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That list is already playing a full set of Duresses.

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Originally Posted by KillemallCFH

That list is already playing a full set of Duresses.

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My bad! I notice, now, that chant / silence were changed, in the sae proportion by duress / thoughseize, considering Pauwels' list.

how do you feel with that change?

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considering Pauwels' list.

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I'm being addressed by my last name now? :p

The first benefit that I see is that it cuts a color which gives you more stability against Stifle + Wasteland.
The other one is that discard effects are better against CB based decks than chant effects.

The obvious downsides are that you cant make him discard a counter and then go for an Ill-Gotten Gains loop. This means that you have to go through a lot of Ad Nauseams when playing against Blue decks. He plays a 3rd Chrome Mox due to that I guess. But then running a second Ad Nauseam as well? That doesn't seem correct.

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Originally Posted by citanul

But then running a second Ad Nauseam as well? That doesn't seem correct.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot. I respect the player because he's a powerhouse and all, but I've seen better ANT sbs.

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Come ON, it is Saito, he is a better deckbuilder than you, and he won a 178 man tourney. Stop critizising his list.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Come ON, it is Saito, he is a better deckbuilder than you, and he won a 178 man tourney. Stop critizising his list.

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I hate this fucking behaviour like "ooo, he's a pro and so his list is perfect, don't even try to discuss a single card of it". Does being a professional player mean that he can't make any errors in deckbuidling? No sir.
For example, if you would know ANT, you'd know that, as someone already said, that Hydroblast is good only against Pyrostatic Pillar. Magus of the Moon? He runs an Island and can make B easily off Moxes, petals (and the basic swamp he could put, being a 2-colours list, which he lacks instead). So it's basically a 1-card answer. Wouldn't it be better to make that slot, say, a Chain of Vapor, which is more flexible and can get rid of Gaddock Teeg and also of the other hatebears that list suffers terribly? Ah no, because he's a pro so I'm wrong and he's right!
I would remember that there's a possibility that Pro players have their lists borrowed by other friends who happen to be deckbuilders, and I think this is the case sine Saitou probably doesn't know Legacy as well as he knows Standard or Extended.
And even if he was, I would still trust more people like the expert ones on this thread, who test costantly all the possible configurations, pro-cons, consequences, bad MUs balancing-power of the cards they choose. Emidln, Bahamuth, Citanul, PF and others play Storm Combo from much, much time, more than the 1-time quickie Saitou probably had with this deck. And all of them won tournaments, despites not doing it for work.

So please stop with that trolling argument.

A 178 tournament is not a trolling argument, and Saito being better than us is also not a trolling argument.

But what you said were certainly NO arguments, just one-liners that you think a certain card is bad. "Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot." How is that an argument? That is just a statement. Yeah, go and replace two cards with two other cards that do nothing similar. It really doesnt matter. Just play Xantid Swarm and ignore bouncing Chalice#1, Chalice#2, Trinisphere and Thorn of Amethyst all at the same time. Your Staxx opponent can't cast spells, right, and so you just combo? Was that what you were trying to communicate with replacin Rebuild with Swarm?

Maybe Pyroblast is argueable, but then argue instead of just saying something. And if you are at it, look at the 2 Goblin lists in the Top8, one which played Pillar. Maybe it was good metagaming by Saito and for your Meta Pyroblast isn't good? Just think for a few seconds before posting.

And if you really trust the guys you mentioned more than Saito, then you should make a reality check, it is like saying you trust your local Hold'em round for Holdem strategy more than durrrr or Ivey (or whatever game you play with whatever Stars it has).

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But what you said were certainly NO arguments, just one-liners that you think a certain card is bad.

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Excuse me? I gave quite a good analysis why I think that a second Ad Nauseam is a bad choice. When you face a blue deck you want protection followed by a kill. Using discard as protection over chant effects forces you to go through Ad Nauseam as a win condition instead of the IGG-loop. So his deck needs to resolve Ad Nauseam then and it's build for it in general. 4 Cabal Ritual, 3 Chrome Mox. Most people don't run that anymore but he has to. But then electing to run a 2nd Ad Nauseam isn't good because it increases your own loss rate to it.

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Originally Posted by Tao

A 178 tournament is not a trolling argument, and Saito being better than us is also not a trolling argument.

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Several people won larger tournaments with better lists, despites not being pro players. I can think to that guy who won the last Ovinogeddon in Italy (370 players), with a very good list, a straight UBW ANT with 2 tops and red in sb for Pyroblasts.
But to me you're too slave to the iconic power of the pilot to see specifically in his deck.

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Originally Posted by Tao

But what you said were certainly NO arguments, just one-liners that you think a certain card is bad. "Hydroblast? Rebuild? He'd better play 2 Xantid Swarm off that slot." How is that an argument? That is just a statement. Yeah, go and replace two cards with two other cards that do nothing similar. It really doesnt matter. Just play Xantid Swarm and ignore bouncing Chalice#1, Chalice#2, Trinisphere and Thorn of Amethyst all at the same time. Your Staxx opponent can't cast spells, right, and so you just combo? Was that what you were trying to communicate with replacin Rebuild with Swarm?

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I was trying to communicate the obvious thing that a good combo player should notice with this lists, i.e. the lack of Chants really do hurt against decks playing Top to hide counterspells, or multiple counters ala Tempo Threshold. Xantid would be a in-color, recursive Chant effect.
I bet every player with a minimum of experience in the deck would have got it.
Not you, as it seems.
About the artifact bouncing issue: he can run, instead of Rebuild which is quite slow and aggravates the cost of Ad Nauseam a lot (again, a thing everyone would notice), another Hurkyl's Recall. I don't find these decks to set Chalice at 2 very much against storm combo, if not in a very advanced position; Chalice at 1 is the first obvious choice, as it stops your cantrips and your Dark Rituals. Then it comes Chalice at 0 which breaks LEDs, Petals, Moxes. Of course Trinisphere is a must-remove.
Also keep in mind that against Stax, it's more difficult to reach 3 mana due to various Wastelands, Armageddons, and such. Of course it's equal if Trinisphere is on the field, but it doesn't always happen, and the Ad Nauseam issue persists.

He could have taken off those Dark Confidants, which are not that great in a combo sideboard. Mind discussing this? Go 3 pages before this and read the flamewar between Rico Suave and the rest of the guys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

Maybe Pyroblast is argueable, but then argue instead of just saying something. And if you are at it, look at the 2 Goblin lists in the Top8, one which played Pillar. Maybe it was good metagaming by Saito and for your Meta Pyroblast isn't good? Just think for a few seconds before posting.

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Shouldn't it be Hydroblast? :cool:
Again, why not to run Chain of Vapor then? It can bounce PP so that you can go off the turn after, with the bonus of being awesome against Gaddock Teeg and such instead of having the powerful effect of countering a Lightning Bolt. Do you think that destroying and bouncing is so different with Storm Combo? The only real panorama when destroying is>>>> bouncing is against Counterbalance to me, when you are not sure than the turn after you'll manage to go off, due to all the counters a normal Countertop packs so there's a possibility you'll fizzle/be stopped and they'll bring CB down again.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

And if you really trust the guys you mentioned more than Saito, then you should make a reality check, it is like saying you trust your local Hold'em round for Holdem strategy more than durrrr or Ivey (or whatever game you play with whatever Stars it has).

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Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. I don't care if Saitou won a tournament with ANT, as he probably picked it up for that event only. These guys put up regular results from a lot of time, and this means a lot. If you want to play Saitou's list because you judge it to be the definitive AnT list, no one stops from doing it. When you'll get skullfucked by some decks because of the weakness of the deck, maybe you'll think again about it.
[/QUOTE]

I'm with Piceli and citanul on this one, Rebuild is not as good as you might expect. Hurkyl's Recall answers Stax and Stompy as good as Rebuild does. When he has a Chalice @ 2, why not opt for a Krosan Grip, which has the added bonus of destroying a SDT or a CB? The fact that K.Grip forces you to play G in is not an argument, as Xantid Swarm and/or Carpet of Flowers should be i your SB as well.

Being a pro or winning a tournament is by no means an argument to praise the list this person used. Those times I've seen pro's play Legacy (like at Worlds), they mostly played like shit. These people never look into Legacy at all, and the community over here has done a much better job at creating better lists that a pro will. I know for a fact that both mainboard and sideboard of that list are bad and it doesn't mean anything that the pilot is a pro or that the list won a tournament.

Yes, green calls that.
I would like to add that the list in itself is not bad at all, but to me needs some tweaks to fight bad MUs. Here's what I tried some minutes ago:

4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [PT] Swamp (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UG] Island
1 [A] Tropical Island
3 [A] Underground Sea

// Spells
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [LRW] Ponder
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [US] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River (?)
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [U] Tropical Island

The MD list resembles a lot the original one, with the exception of City of Traitors bring cut because I didn't like their drawback that much, and it's pretty much a Top-dependant hand in the opening hand. 1 more Ponder to speed up the deck a bit also, since it's DD-less.

I can accept running 2 AdN. You want to be the more fast possible with this build (especially against blue where you couldn't stand mid-late ame only with discard as protection), and Duress+TS fit for this; having 2 AdN increase the possibility of having it in the initial hand, goin Duress+Rituals and various mana-->Ad Nauseam. This is a doable thing in here, but imo not in the traditional UBw lists where having chants require you more mana and a bit more setup.

The sideboard has changed completely. I added the well-known Xantids to fight Faeries, Tempo Threshold, and opposing Stor Combos with Chants, against which this build is inferior. I added also a Pact of Negation to make life a bit easier against Tempo Thresh, even if I'm unsure about it.
The rest is canonic: bounce for artifacts, KGrips for CB. I also put an additional IGG to become sort of Fetchland Tendrils against those MUs where you'd side in lots of 3-cc, making Ad Nauseam really worse. Perhaps we could let a single AdN in against Stax, since they have no clock, but against Countertop lists is better to board the out.

I feel this list is ore explosive than normal AnT due to protection being on-colour with the acceleration, but I'm sure I'll miss Chants (and Doomsday even more).