[Deck] Affinity

Death and Taxes a terrible match-up? I'm inclined to disagree, Shawon. When I played in Chantilly, I played a few D&T decks, and the only game I lost was because of bad mulligan/bad keep. Otherwise, I felt entirely in control of every single game. I've never felt as powerful as when I went up against Death and Taxes. Maybe it was just the luck of the draw that day, but the opposition seemed very underwhelming.

Ensnaring Bridge, while not a game ender on the other side of the board, is not a good idea for our deck. Because Plating. And Ravager.

Also, I goldfished the Legacy build with Tangle Wire - I don't suggest it. Tangle Wire is AMAZING in the vintage version, but the vintage version is also an entirely different deck, solely because of one card: Skullclamp. Every time I had Tangle Wire in my hand, I wanted it to be something else. Granted, that was goldfishing and not playing an actual game, but still. Other cards have the better synergy, I think.

I would also be hesitant about Humility because of Champion, mainly, and potentially Master, if you run him (which I do). Champion is really the one card that a lot of decks are scared of, and I wouldn't want to lose that advantage.

On the Inkmoth Nexus vs. Ancient Tomb vs. Darksteel Citadel, I'm gonna go with Shawon on this one, and say Citadel. I've played with all three, and while I wasn't exactly disappointed in Inkmoth, I found that the "alternate" win con I thought I was packing in my deck wasn't really that. I was one infect short a lot, or they have the wasteland, or if it had been regular damage it would have been lethal, etc. And the in-constant Metalcraft is rough, too. Same with Ancient Den on the metalcraft, and it hurts even more when it gets Wastelanded. Citadel is much more consistent, adds to Metalcraft, can't be Wastelanded, and is a great target for Tezz, as Shawon pointed out. That being said, different decks will run any of the three, and neither of them are bad choices, but I prefer the Citadel, after having tried all three.

In response to Etched - I also am on the Stoneforge plan. I only run 2, but I really like it in the deck. Fetches up the Plating when you need it, and gives you access to stuff like Fire and Ice, Batterskull, Manriki-Gusari, Feast and Famine, etc. I currently run on Fire and Ice and one Manriki side.

Admittedly, the D&T matchup is very difficult for me because I don't run any Masters. My main avenue of attack against D&T is striking with Etched Champion, but if they have Revoker, it's a huge roadblock because it's 2 power is enough to block and kill my Champion. The only surefire way I've ever beaten D&T is going value-Ravager on Etched Champion. I'm trying to run Manriki-Gusari and even Tower of the Magistrate to make the matchup better, but my work might be a lot easier if I just run Masters. I might do end up doing that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

.....might be a lot easier if I just run Masters. I might do end up doing that.

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Master of Etherium can be a house, but I've found it's also a massive magnet for removal of the exile kind in this matchup, and removal in every other matchup too.
I like 'em, but don't run them for this reason alone, as achieving 2U isn't really that hard.

I think Etched is probably the stronger option here given it'll have protection almost always. SFM grabs a sword and we swing...
Hell, a sword of light and shadow maybe?

Oh yeah, Master does cost 3 mana, which isn't a sure thing to achieve when Death & Taxes can sometimes go Plan G: Griefing, and then lock you out from casting Master.

If my current tech of Tower + Manriki isn't enough, then I just might put 3 Dispatch in the sb instead of the Masters.

I use two Master and a playset of Champion and haven't been disappointed. Yeah master can get exiled which is why I only in two of him, but if he doesn't get responded to, then I usually win. He's just too much if a threat too ignore.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Oh yeah, Master does cost 3 mana, which isn't a sure thing to achieve when Death & Taxes can sometimes go Plan G: Griefing, and then lock you out from casting Master.

If my current tech of Tower + Manriki isn't enough, then I just might put 3 Dispatch in the sb instead of the Masters.

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The conditional nature of dispatch is rarely a factor, but it still plays on my mind for some reason, compared to StP.

I've done a heap of testing with Darksteel, Inkmoth, Tomb > results and percentages are always conditional on how you shuffle and the rest of your list so I won't bother to bore you all with T1 chances of metalcraft etc.
Lesson learned;
Turn 1 plays are our goal, and Citadel is the best (obviously, like... *duh*)
Inkmoth felt a little win-more, a little more of an all-in feel, in what is already an all-in deck. Inkmoth was serviceable, but had a few weaknesses, namely copping creature removal and we lose a mana source, and needing us to sink mana into it constantly. If we're up against land-D, having the spare mana each turn for it will not always be straight forward...
I didn't really see a definite reason for Tomb unless we're playing Batterskull.
So after all those hands and mulligans etc., Citadel was the clear winner.
I'll be probably running a single Inkmoth, and 3 Citadel's, just for a bit of variation if little else.

Academy Ruins is another great one of land I think. Get back the crucial Plating or the one if equipment you run. I believe Tomb is mainly used for the Chalice plan, so if you aren't running Chalice, there's less of a reason to use Tomb.


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How many of you guys are just running straight Anderson's list? Which other lists have you guys been doing well with? I've got a somewhat big tourney coming up, and I'm trying to figure out which version to play against an unknown meta.

Hi guys,

I'm running Merfolk in legacy. In my local meta, we usually get 16-20 people for each legacy tournament. Well, affinity is easily my worst match-up, even worse than Goblins. Usually there are 1-2 decks per tournament, and they absolutely wreck me. Can you please help me?

I'm going to dedicate 4 slots of SB hate to it this time. I'm trying to decide between 4 x Null Rod, or 4 x Energy Flux. Which is more horrific? Energy Flux hits swarms, but Null Rod lands faster. Keep in mind, I'll almost certainly lose the first game. So I'll need to win Game 2 and 3, and only get to start once. I'm also going to side in 3 Jittes, with the goal being to hit with it by T4.

Sorry to make you aid the enemy, but I'd very much appreciate your help, your deck is nasty.

Energy Flux is probably the most effective hate against Affinity. Null Rod shuts off Aether Vial, and your Equipment if you run any, which I don't think you want. Also, Null Rod doesn't do much against fliers already Equipped.

Hurkyl's Recall is another good hate card, but you can't just rely on it alone. I got beat recently by Merfolk packing Recall and Manriki-Gusari, which is a good combination because Manriki-Gusari takes care of Plating and Recall curbs any attempt to alpha strike.

Did pretty badly in a local tourney recently, as I went up against alot of Delver decks, which my meta is filled with. Pondering running Chalice main to combat Delver/Miracles/Metagame.

What do you folks think? Trying out the Stoneforge package+Masters. Sideboard is dedicated to my specific meta, which is mostly Delver/Miracles, and quite a bit of Storm and Dredge which have been popping up lately.

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Vault Skirge
4 Etched Champion
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Master of Etherium

4 Thoughtcast

4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
3 Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
4 Springleaf Drum
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap

Pretty short report of the Legacy Championship at GP Vienna and some notes to my list.
Played the following 60+15:


4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Etched Champion
4 Master of Etherium

4 Springleaf Drum
4 Mox Opal
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
3 Tezzeret Agent of Bolas

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers
1 Glimmervoid

SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Specter's Shroud

Normally I'm a combo player by heart but too less sleep led me to Affinity.
The only change was from Signal Pest to Master of Etherium. The reason is pretty simple: I wanted more threats than my opponents can handle.
Miracles are pretty much everywhere in Europe and Signal Pest forces you to overcommit which can not be the best plan against that deck.
Therefore it had to go.

The Shrouds in the board were a test. And the failed horribly. For the next time I will try Winter Orbs instead. You can play pretty much anything in that 3 slots.

The tournament went pretty well:

2:0 Canadian
2:1 Death&Taxes
2:1 BGW Junk
2:0 Canadian
2:0 Miracles
0:2 Elves (I conceeded to him so we come in 1st and 2nd cuz he was at 4: 0: 1 that point)

Everything was working out quite well, besides the Shrouds, so I will play it again in case of hangover or anything like that...

br

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Climax

Normally I'm a combo player by heart but too less sleep led me to Affinity.
The only change was from Signal Pest to Master of Etherium. The reason is pretty simple: I wanted more threats than my opponents can handle.
Miracles are pretty much everywhere in Europe and Signal Pest forces you to overcommit which can not be the best plan against that deck.
Therefore it had to go.

The Shrouds in the board were a test. And the failed horribly. For the next time I will try Winter Orbs instead. You can play pretty much anything in that 3 slots.

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That's good reasoning against Miracles. Good job, by the way. I found Specter's Shroud to be mediore as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Etched

What do you folks think? Trying out the Stoneforge package+Masters. Sideboard is dedicated to my specific meta, which is mostly Delver/Miracles, and quite a bit of Storm and Dredge which have been popping up lately.

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Vault Skirge
4 Etched Champion
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Master of Etherium

4 Thoughtcast

4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
3 Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
4 Springleaf Drum
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap

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It's a nice start. I think if you're going to use Jitte MD, you need additional aggro like Signal Pest or Frogmite to make the option of windmilling Jitte on turn 2 more useful. I ran into many situations where I could get a turn 1 Jitte, but only Ornithopter on the table -_- If you insist on keeping the creature base as it is, I would advise you run Sword of Fire and Ice in Jitte's stead.

I think having one additional colored mana source is more important than having Ruins. I've found Paradise Mantle to be insane with SFM, but Glimmervoid is also acceptable. That 9th rainbow mana source is something you need.

Earlier in March, I took a break from playing my Legacy Affinity list and played Modern Affinity for two weeks. Playing Modern Affinity opened my eyes to new insights and new ideas, and coming back into Legacy, I feel more compelled to continue innovating Affinity.

After porting my Legacy Affinity into Modern, I decided to take back a little bit of Modern with me and tried to make a direct port into Legacy. Also, I really wanted to play with Blood Moon and Whipflare considering in CT, where I live, I need to be able to confidently beat 12Post and Elves.

Red (or Grixis) Affinity

Mana
12 Artifact Lands
4 Drum
4 Opal
1 Glimmervoid
4 Inkmoth

Critters
8 Cheeri0s
4 Pest
4 Skirge
4 Ravager
3 Master
3 Overseer

4 Plating
2 Thoughtcast
2 Galvanic Blast
1 FLING

SB:
3 Blood Moon
3 Whipflare
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
3 Tezz
3 Flex

I learned a lot of things from playing Modern, too many to share right now before I go to sleep, so I might expound later. The craziest idea in that Red list that I've ever tried, aside from Fling LOL, is the 2 Thoughtcast seeing as how it's usually regarded as the best spell in Affinity, which to be honest, I don't agree with anymore. It's undoubtedly a good card, but I decided that I needed to make some room for other cards, such as keeping my creature/threat count to where it is or making room for the 3 burn spells.

After giving Red Affinity a spin, I wanted to revisit my Esper build with new eyes. I'll post it later, though, too tired :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Earlier in March, I took a break from playing my Legacy Affinity list and played Modern Affinity for two weeks. Playing Modern Affinity opened my eyes to new insights and new ideas, and coming back into Legacy, I feel more compelled to continue innovating Affinity.

After porting my Legacy Affinity into Modern, I decided to take back a little bit of Modern with me and tried to make a direct port into Legacy. Also, I really wanted to play with Blood Moon and Whipflare considering in CT, where I live, I need to be able to confidently beat 12Post and Elves.

Red (or Grixis) Affinity

Mana
12 Artifact Lands
4 Drum
4 Opal
1 Glimmervoid
4 Inkmoth

Critters
8 Cheeri0s
4 Pest
4 Skirge
4 Ravager
3 Master
3 Overseer

4 Plating
2 Thoughtcast
2 Galvanic Blast
1 FLING

SB:
3 Blood Moon
3 Whipflare
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
3 Tezz
3 Flex

I learned a lot of things from playing Modern, too many to share right now before I go to sleep, so I might expound later. The craziest idea in that Red list that I've ever tried, aside from Fling LOL, is the 2 Thoughtcast seeing as how it's usually regarded as the best spell in Affinity, which to be honest, I don't agree with anymore. It's undoubtedly a good card, but I decided that I needed to make some room for other cards, such as keeping my creature/threat count to where it is or making room for the 3 burn spells.

After giving Red Affinity a spin, I wanted to revisit my Esper build with new eyes. I'll post it later, though, too tired :/

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I'm going to give your list a shot in a little bit, especially since I don't like using Tomb (even though I acknowledge how darn good it is). I'm interested in seeing what else you have to say about this deck also.

I would advise against underestimating card advantage. It's the reason why in this deck Fire and Ice I think is better than Jitte.

Also, I tried a few Overseers after playing Vintage Affinity but found that for Legacy it was too slow and clunky. I was usually wishing they were something else. I think the reason they're good in vintage is because that deck generates a crapload of tokens, so even using Overseer once is massive. In Legacy we don't have that capability so the card is more lukewarm.

Also also, Galvanic Blast seems good, but honestly Dispatch is just better. This deck doesn't need burn to the face because it's already overwhelming aggressive most of the time.

That's my two cents at least. I'll be curious to see what you think after play testing.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Draconicsteel

I would advise against underestimating card advantage. It's the reason why in this deck Fire and Ice I think is better than Jitte.

Also, I tried a few Overseers after playing Vintage Affinity but found that for Legacy it was too slow and clunky. I was usually wishing they were something else. I think the reason they're good in vintage is because that deck generates a crapload of tokens, so even using Overseer once is massive. In Legacy we don't have that capability so the card is more lukewarm.

Also also, Galvanic Blast seems good, but honestly Dispatch is just better. This deck doesn't need burn to the face because it's already overwhelming aggressive most of the time.

That's my two cents at least. I'll be curious to see what you think after play testing.


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Steel Overseer is a lot better if you're running Signal Pest + Ravager + Inkmoth. Ravager still uses the counters from Overseer when it dies and triggers Modular. It definitely does have its disadvantages since it can easily be taken out, but like Master, if left unchecked, it becomes a problem.

The main reason for using Galvanic Blast over Dispatch is simply the red splash for Blood Moon/Whipflare in the sb. However, I'm also working on a white build specifically aimed at using Dispatch MD; I'm trying to figure out what hate in :u::w::b: I can run in place of Moon/Whipflare. I'm thinking about trying Aven Mindcensor against Cloudpost lol, and Plague against Elves, as possible substitutes. Or, if I'm going back to running Darksteel Citadels, Armageddon would be in the sb.

I started thinking about Dispatch because Dark depths is popular in my area, but I found that Pithing Needle works just as well and is more versatile against more decks. So there's another option.


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Forgot to mention, but I'm also using Dispatch because Reanimator is in my area.

Another reason why I love RiP. Shuts down that deck, too.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Draconicsteel

(Reanimator) Another reason why I love RiP.

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I prefer Grafdiggers in Affinity.
Reason being, we don't need coloured mana > postboard you mull for RiP vs. Dredge/Reanimator and if you don't get a white source, what do you do?
It comes down on T1 when it matters. It's fodder for Tezz/Arc'y if you get multiple's.
And lastly, it's relevant against more than just graveyard decks, it's also useful against GSZ-types aswell.
.... Sure, Grafdiggers can be bounced, but you can also pop a mix of gravehate in the yard if it worries you, or run dispatch.


Just a question here guys and gals;
Why do people run Arcbound Ravager in their list, without the outlet of Disciple of the Vault?
.. I just think it's terrible to include one without the other. Am I wrong here?


I'm thinking of running Affinity next legacy night, given my pet deck dredge is facing some bloody tough gravehate lately.
I'd like some some advice;
On the sideboard especially please, bearing in mind D&T & Blue in general, is pretty big where I play right now.
:note: One of my SFM went walkabout last time I took Affinity out, so I only have 3.:mad:
Cabal Therapy is one of my favourite cards ever. I'm aware of the anti-synergy with Cage but it rarely matters as Cage just ruins graveyard/GSZ decks etc., and both being 1-cmc gives me flexibility to decide which to use on T1.
The only reason I have Pest in the list is Therapy, otherwise I'd probably swap them for Master... still might unless you guys know of a better option?
Therapy can be back-breaking with Tallmen > the ability to rip out multiples or bait out counter is just so useful > a really good therapy+flashback can be like gutting them right there on the table before we swing for big hits.

I'd like to fit in 2 or so Phyrexian Revoker, maybe even in the main, but I'm not sure what to cut > How useful are they, really?

PUNY ROBOTS
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Den
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Darksteel Citadel
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum

4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Vault Skirge
2 Signal Pest
4 Etched Champion
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Thoughtcast
4 Dispatch

4 Cranial Plating
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SIDEBOARD:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Batterskull
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas


Cheers.

So, are you saying that without Disciple, it's terrible to include Ravager in the deck? C'mon, you don't really believe that, do you? Ravager is hands down the best creature in Affinity, because of its inherent synergy and its sheer power to win games on its own. Disciple is several steps down the hierarchy, because it's only good when you have one card... which is Ravager.

One of the reasons why I've been going back to using Masters is D&T, because it gives you at least one creature that doesn't care if your opponent gets two Jitte counters. Also, Revoker is the card Affinity players want to see least in games against D&T, and it can put a damper on your plan to go all-in on Plating + Champ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

So, are you saying that without Disciple, it's terrible to include Ravager in the deck? C'mon, you don't really believe that, do you? Ravager is hands down the best creature in Affinity, because of its inherent synergy and its sheer power to win games on its own. Disciple is several steps down the hierarchy, because it's only good when you have one card... which is Ravager..

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Maybe *terrible* is too strong a word.
I would argue it's certainly not getting the most from the card.

Look at what it does;
You can instantly kill any of your artifacts to pump up your Ravager for combat tricks, or to try and save it from red removal, which you can potentially be baited into doing. Or you can sac it for it's counters to move somewhere else, once again during combat or in response to removal. Sure there may be more ways to use it, but these are the ones I think are most relevant.
Beyond that it's just a beater with no evasion, that requires we go backwards on the boardstate to make it worth anything. This last part is the important bit.

To me, the whole point of Disciple, is having an alternate win-con in the deck.
Say an opponent has Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Maze of Ith etc. or is just in a better position than you are.
When you're in a losing position, ravager without Disciple often doesn't help you turn it around, and does jack-shit when an opponent can stop you landing combat damage.
Having Disciple in there aswell, means we can just sac everything to somehow snatch victory in these situations. > it also gives us a way to drop an opponents life points after a combat phase to possibly snatch victory, instead of just waiting for the next turn, allowing us to play more aggressively.

Stoneforge has taken this slot in the current builds with Ravager to be fair, but still > Ravager doesn't seem that great to me without it.


Anyway;
Considering D&T matchups, you say you're getting Master back in. I like this. Just a question I think needs serious thought > have you guys considered True-Name Nemesis?
I would've thought having 8 Champions would be pretty useful with Stoneforge Mystic fetching Plating. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave

Maybe *terrible* is too strong a word.


To me, the whole point of Disciple, is having an alternate win-con in the deck.
Say an opponent has Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Maze of Ith etc. or is just in a better position than you are.
When you're in a losing position, ravager without Disciple often doesn't help you turn it around, and does jack-shit when an opponent can stop you landing combat damage.
Having Disciple in there aswell, means we can just sac everything to somehow snatch victory in these situations. > it also gives us a way to drop an opponents life points after a combat phase to possibly snatch victory, instead of just waiting for the next turn, allowing us to play more aggressively.

Stoneforge has taken this slot in the current builds with Ravager to be fair, but still > Ravager doesn't seem that great to me without it.


Anyway;
Considering D&T matchups, you say you're getting Master back in. I like this. Just a question I think needs serious thought > have you guys considered True-Name Nemesis?
I would've thought having 8 Champions would be pretty useful with Stoneforge Mystic fetching Plating. :cool:

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the thing about ravager + disciple as an altenate wincondition may be true, but the way you describe it it is already covered by a single card, and not a 2-card-semi-combo, and this in a way that is way more effective than ravager + disciple

this card is called tezzeret, agent of bolas

disciple has no more place in this deck as his role is fullfilled by a more potent card now, and this without sacrificing your whole boardposition a la "all-in"

arcbound is still one of the best if not the best creature in the deck, and works extremely well together with etched champion, even without a plating on board

The idea of TNN is a nice one though, but i would never run a full playset of it, because its manacost is very restrictive, sometimes it is even hard to cast a master of etherium, which costs only one blue mana, but TNN costs 2 blue mana
i would test TNN as a 2-off, and adjust the manabase accordingly for more blue sources or even adding rainbow lands (which i am not that much a fan of, because it slows down the deck a bit)

The downside of TNN is that it works only well with a plating, not with a ravager on board as well, and is killed by the same hate a lot of our other creatures die, namely golgari charm and zealous persecution

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

the thing about ravager + disciple as an altenate wincondition may be true, but the way you describe it it is already covered by a single card, and not a 2-card-semi-combo, and this in a way that is way more effective than ravager + disciple
this card is called tezzeret, agent of bolas
disciple has no more place in this deck as his role is fullfilled by a more potent card now, and this without sacrificing your whole boardposition a la "all-in"

The idea of TNN is a nice one though, but i would never run a full playset of it, because its manacost is very restrictive.
The downside of TNN is that it works only well with a plating, not with a ravager on board as well, and is killed by the same hate a lot of our other creatures die, namely golgari charm and zealous persecution

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A couple of things I agree with, a few I don't. Just so you get me, I'm only suggesting you would sac everything to Ravager/Disciple once it's actually gonna win you the game.
Tezz is a good alternate win-con, and it's a great card. But how often does anyone actually get to perform this little alternate win-con? :wink: Yeah, exactly...
I've only ever got it to work in a win-more context, when I had my opponent on the back foot and they were unable to stop me. If anyone here routinely wins this way when you're in a losing position, feel free to argue with me, as when I'm losing I feel the default play with Tezz is the -1 on a Darksteel Citadel/useless artefact.

The reason Disciple is useful here, is that if your opponent lands a game-ending beater like Emrakul, on T3 via Show/Sneak etc., you now have a way to inflict damage via attacking and instantly equipping Plating to your unblocked attacker, then sac your entire board to ravager and disciple. You may not have your opponent within reach, but sometimes you will > but at least you have a chance > Tezz isn't likely to change the outcome here at all, even if you have been able to play it.
And Disciple works when an opponent drops artifacts too, say your opponent is playing Storm > I've used the Disciple on T1, Ravager on T2 in the past and simply sacked when his fetches, Ad Nauseum's, Probe's, Petals etc. all got him within reach. Nothing quite like killing storm on their business turn at instant speed without needing counter. Something that Tezz is way too slow to do.

But;
Tezz + Disciple seems a little stronger.
Lets say you have 2 or 3 Tezz in the list and a similar number of Disciple. An average T1 should have you with 4 to 5 perms on the board, and really good one with 6 or 7. In the past I've had Tezz on the board by T2 on occasion.
Anyway, if we have a perfect storm of a Tezz ready for his -4, with Disciple & Ravager on the board aswell, you should be able to hit your opponent for upwards of 7 life with Tezz, and then Ravager/Disciple for a similar number all without even attacking. You see why I'm talking up Disciple?
Sure, Disciple has con's too > these days I don't think it's mainboard material, but from the side maybe?


I stopped playing with Ravager's a while ago and sold them > I found them to be removal bait and rarely got them to work on a common basis. Maybe it's just where I play?
In regards to TNN, I agree with you.
Tested the bugger last night for a while before I left > it's a two-of at most, but I might try one for starters.
I'm not happy with the manabase either. I'm gonna try a Glimmervoid or two, probablt a Mantle and see how I go.

Another idea I'm working with, is going for a more fearless approach postboard against the deck where counter doesn't matter so much.
Thopter Foundry & Sword of the Meek combo. I'm not sure it's gonna be viable, but I thought I'd give it a go, given we're running SFM & Tezz to potentially find them and it's not gonna be expected either, so cards like Meddling Mage, Cabal Therapy etc. will no doubt whiff trying to prevent it.
Anyone ever tried this?

now i get what you are pointing at.

sadly every occasion you described is an extremely rare situation. Of course rare situations happen, but the overall usefullness of disciple is not as good as the usefullness of other cards.

you might be right on the point that disciple is "faster" than tezzeret, yet for the kill you need twice the amount of permanents/artifacts than with tezzeret practically going all in even before you might be able to "go off" or be even slower than with tezzeret because you lack the number of artifacts and still have to attack and then sac to kill the opponent.

on the thing of tezzeret + disciple + ravager
test it! it sounds intresting, yet in my opinion it is a bit to much.
i consider tezzeret, also disciple as a "Plan B" winroute in general (in some matchups this is the more effective one, like against miracles, where disciple + ravager would still suck but tezzeret wins alone).
for disciple and tezzeret not being part of the regular play of an affinity deck (speaking of "Plan A" the beatdown-aggro plan / "kill as fast as possible with attacking-plan") i would not want to dedicate to many Maindeck slots to a Plan B that would dilute the one and only real strength of this deck.

Still this is just my opinion, forged from my expierience with the deck, that reaches back to Mirrodin times (when the deck was first designed)
everyone obviously wants to give his pet-deck for instance his own spin and personalization, which is good, specially for this deck as it makes improvements and adjustments to the meta possible

so, once you tried your configuration of Tezzeret + disciple i am very curious to hear about it (just in my opinion it won't be very strong, but please prove me wrong), and if possible differentiate between matchups

EDIT: forgot about thopter foundry + sword of the meek

has been tried out a long time ago, as additional sac outlet, like ravager, i think when tezzeret was not yet printed. the combo was very slow, but was never used as 4-off or the deck was never build around the combo.
what i want to say is that this combo might give you an edge in controll matchups like miracles or whatever, but otherwise is horrible in a fast aggro deck (In My Opinion)

Figured I would post a deck that showed up on the dailies. Haven't seen one on there in a while, so I thought I would post it over here...

MGatica (3-1)
Legacy Daily #6975351 on 04/15/2014

4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Etched Champion
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge

4 Cranial Plating
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Thoughtcast

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Rest in Peace


Pretty standard based on recent conversations.

So it's basically Drew Levin's list with a one-card difference. What was the point of posting this?

I don't know why people keep referencing Drew Levin's Affinity list as some gold standard, when it's actually pretty suboptimal and outdated.

Among other news, I'm liking MD Dispatch a lot now, to the point where I'm considering running four. It makes my matchup against any Reanimator build more comfortable since I don't have to rely on drawing Cages, and furthermore, it makes tempo very easy because most of their gameplan is spent reacting to yours, and removing one of their few threats sets them back a lot. The only downside I have yet to experience, yet I predict would happen against MUD, is that Chalice@1 would be pretty brutal against me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Among other news, I'm liking MD Dispatch a lot now, to the point where I'm considering running four. It makes my matchup against any Reanimator build more comfortable since I don't have to rely on drawing Cages, and furthermore, it makes tempo very easy because most of their gameplan is spent reacting to yours, and removing one of their few threats sets them back a lot. The only downside I have yet to experience, yet I predict would happen against MUD, is that Chalice@1 would be pretty brutal against me.

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Dispatch is great. I can't see a reason not to include some in the main. Simply paving a way to get hits through is reason enough.

Chalice sucks against most decks to be fair, but why is it such a big deal @1?
Besides sideboard options, the only maindeck stuff @1, is Springleaf Drum & Dispatch. If my opponent played Chalice @1 I'd giggle, cos they could do so much more damage @0 for T1 on the play, whilst we're on the draw.

Considering the deck above;
Signal Pest only makes sense to me if you're using it as a sac target with Cabal Therapy. Otherwise it's rubbish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slave

Dispatch is great. I can't see a reason not to include some in the main. Simply paving a way to get hits through is reason enough.

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Moreover, Dispatch's an answer against Marit Lage. It's also great at "dispatching" Veteran Explorer & Wurmcoil Engine without any blowback.

Quote:

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Chalice sucks against most decks to be fair, but why is it such a big deal @1?
Besides sideboard options, the only maindeck stuff @1, is Springleaf Drum & Dispatch. If my opponent played Chalice @1 I'd giggle, cos they could do so much more damage @0 for T1 on the play, whilst we're on the draw.

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Still, if the MUD player knows that your answers to their big creatures is a 1cc removal, using Chalice to shut off what's probably your only out is very significant.

Quote:

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Considering the deck above;
Signal Pest only makes sense to me if you're using it as a sac target with Cabal Therapy. Otherwise it's rubbish.

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I flip-flop between two different UWB Affinity lists, one containing in a 4 land slot Inkmoth Nexus and the other containing Darksteel Citadel instead. In the Nexus version, Signal Pest is imperative to have because quite often if you try to kill with Infect on turn 3, Signal Pest often helps you kill for the exact damage.

Hi guys. Been playing Affinity for a few months, so I thought I'd register and take part in the discussion. I play a lot of legacy, and go to small and big local legacy events from time to time, and occasionally larger scale ones. I'm looking forward to discussing the deck. :smile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aesir

Hi guys. Been playing Affinity for a few months, so I thought I'd register and take part in the discussion. I play a lot of legacy, and go to small and big local legacy events from time to time, and occasionally larger scale ones. I'm looking forward to discussing the deck. :smile:

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Welcome. Please make sure to visit the site rules as a guide.

On the matter of sideboarding v Sneak and Show, what do you guys bring in? I've been bringing in 3 Pierce, and taking out Tezz. I've heard arguments for Chalice, which I disagree with, as I don't believe it doesn't do enough. Shutting off their cantrips is nice, but they can easily Snt/Sneak in a fatty and win. Thoughts?

It would help if you can give us your list first.
But yes. I would bring in the Chalices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Climax

It would help if you can give us your list first.
But yes. I would bring in the Chalices.

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I'm messing around with Anderson's list at the moment. I'm sure you're all familiar with it, but here it is for reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=61227

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aesir

On the matter of sideboarding v Sneak and Show, what do you guys bring in?

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I've been thinking my side a lot. We have a deck that routinely gets two mana on turn 1.

What about Leonin Arbiter?
For this exact matchup, and pretty much any mana-greedy deck that runs heavy fetches, or a suite of tutors, that is just way too quick for us to bonk on the head.
If you can land it on T1 and all they have in hand is fetches and no free counter, you've effectively locked them out of playing magic until they find a way to remove it or get two lands on board.
Even with two lands, getting to more than that will be slower.
It's a creature, so we can use it to bonk with too.

Of course, Mindlock Orb can just lock a game up for some opposition, but it's just too slow to help us.

Hi guys. Been testing some games against various decks, and did pretty well. The deck can be very resilient and good. :smile: Anyways, developing a new list:

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Ancient Den
2 Glimmervoid
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Vault Skirge
4 Etched Champion
4 Ornithopter
3 Master of Etherium
2 Ethersworn Canonist

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Thoughtcast

SB:
4 Rest in Peace
3 Duress
3 Spell Pierce
2 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mindbreak Trap

This deck is built to perform effectively against my meta. Storm, Delver, Stoneblade, and other decks are part of it. Chalice and Canonist main do well against Storm and Delver/Blade, while Master is a threat good against Blade decks and DNT, where it is big enough to block/kill their threats and dodge Jitte. Sideboard covers other decks and helps improve matchups. Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

So it's basically Drew Levin's list with a one-card difference. What was the point of posting this?

I don't know why people keep referencing Drew Levin's Affinity list as some gold standard, when it's actually pretty suboptimal and outdated.

Among other news, I'm liking MD Dispatch a lot now, to the point where I'm considering running four. It makes my matchup against any Reanimator build more comfortable since I don't have to rely on drawing Cages, and furthermore, it makes tempo very easy because most of their gameplan is spent reacting to yours, and removing one of their few threats sets them back a lot. The only downside I have yet to experience, yet I predict would happen against MUD, is that Chalice@1 would be pretty brutal against me.

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I brought it up because that variation of the deck is still getting exposure, which sort of surprised me. Whether or not it's optimal is a different issue.

^ Fair enough.

I've been tweaking both my Affinity lists (one using Inkmoth Nexus in a 4 land slot, the other Darksteel Citadel; I also have another list with 4 Ancient Tomb) as of late. My Darksteel list is still being revamped, but after making a recent change to up both Dispatch and Master of Etherium to 4-ofs, I feel that my MD for the Inkmoth variant is almost perfect. The only three slots that I feel can be changed are the 3 Steel Overseers, but I think Overseer is pretty awesome with Inkmoths and Signal Pest in the deck.

Mana
12 Artifact Lands
4 Opal
4 Drum
4 Inkmoth
1 Glimmervoid

Critters
8 0's
4 Pest
4 Skirge
4 Ravager
4 Master
3 Overseer

Everything Else
4 Plating
4 Dispatch

SB (Incomplete)
4 Tezz
4 Revoker
2 Canonist
2 Cage
1 Karakas

Here are some main points about my list that I want to bring home:

1. Zero Thoughtcast - Until recently, I never understood why people ever wanted to cut Thoughtcast from the deck. It's a spell that draws 2 cards for one mana. Why would anyone playing Affinity NOT run the card? Well, after gaining some brief perspective from playing Modern and applying it to my Legacy experience, I can tell you why, with good reason! For one, combo is fast, and you don't have time to cast Thoughtcast against fast combo decks like Storm or Reanimator, or even Sneak-Show. Another reason, in the grand scheme of your matchups, drawing two cards for one mana may be what you always want, but it's not what you need. I need 4 Dispatch and 4 Master of Etherium more than I need 3 of each and 3 Thoughtcast. The goal of Affinity, at least with my version, is to quickly set up a threatening board position. While Thoughtcast aids this purpose, having more redundancy of threats actually completes this purpose. Despite Thoughtcast being very cheap, casting it on turns 1-2 is less appealing than landing a threat that pressures the opponent to react.

2. Inkmoth Nexus is better than either Darksteel Citadel or Ancient Tomb - I've expressed my love for Inkmoth Nexus before. Honestly, you need a strong excuse not to run a land that can directly win you the game, even faster than its predecessors Blinkmoth Nexus or Mishra's Factory. Yes, Wasteland can kill Inkmoth, and Rishadan Port can prevent you from attacking with it, but the rewards greatly outweigh the risks. With Arcbound Ravager, Signal Pest, and Steel Overseer in the deck, the deck can consistently get Inkmoth large enough to kill with Infect.

3. 4 Dispatch - The change to running Dispatch instead of Galvanic Blast was losing to Reanimator due to not drawing my gy hate fast enough or losing to the deck's alternate enable Show and Tell. I wanted Dispatch because I thought that having access to Dispatch MD gave me a higher change of winning game 1, not enough to make game 1 favorable, but it at least made it easier not to just depend on winning two straight post-board games every time I get paired against Reanimator. Another matchup that warranted the change to Dispatch was Death & Taxes, because I need ways to get rid of Phyrexian Revoker, which is hands down the most annoying card Death & Taxes runs against us, and they run 4. In general, having spot removal helps this deck a lot, because in Legacy the versatility of being able to clear the board for attacks or simply stopping a creature from comboing out (e.g. Painter's Servant) is something I feel Affinity needs.

4. 4 Master of Etherium, 0 Etched Champion - The choice of Master of Etherium over Etched Champion is a concession to making the deck's offensive raw power explode. Going for Etched Champion + Plating (or even Ravager + Champ) is too slow nowadays.

Looking forward, the three MD slots that could be played with are the three Overseers. Perhaps I could fit in Stoneforge Mystic again, with some mix between them and Etched Champions. But like I said, Steel Overseer is nuts with Arcbound Ravager, since it not only pumps Ravager, but it gives Ravager more +1 counters to distribute off its Modular trigger should it die, which is amazing if you also have Inkmoth Nexus. Adding a counter to both Inkmoth Nexus and Arcbound Ravager alone, can potentially add at least 3 counters to Inkmoth Nexus if you activate Modular targeting Nexus.