[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Moat and Morphling? How the hell does that beat Zoo? That's a terrible idea. Ascension... you mean Bloodchief Ascension, the most unplayable card in Zendikar?

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Just nitpicking- Pridemage being counterable can make Moat own you first game, and you have to make sure you get your grips in games 2-3. Not unwinnable, but a stalling tactic that can surely help turn a game. However, I don't think he meant Bloodchief Ascension, but rather probably the blue one. Blooodchief Ascension is far and away from the most unplayable card in Zendikar. :b: to turn a few turns of Attacking, burning, or otherwise fucking your opponent into free 4 life swings in your favor for every card they play, mill, sacrifice, discard, etc... Seems much better to me than say.... Unstable Footing, a much worse card than Bloodchief Ascension.

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Originally Posted by Sims

Just nitpicking- Pridemage being counterable can make Moat own you first game, and you have to make sure you get your grips in games 2-3.

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Thats why we play 4 pridemage, and multi grips post-board. And we have library to dig. Also, post board, we rock Susher so we can force pridemage through.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

There is no making points with you, like at all. You ask me to explain myself, and i do, with very good points like i usually do, but you keep going on and on and on.

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If you explained yourself and were correct I wouldn't need to argue.

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How is it pointless!? Thoctar IS faster. With or without Fireblast. I don't see how you don't see that. Having 5 power to attack with on turn 4 instead of the alternative 3 or 4 with Knight makes a difference. Having to activate him wastes an attack. Sure you can crack a bunch of fetches make him bigger, but you have to fetch EVERY TURN up to turn 4 to get him bigger. That doesn't seem very likely.

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In the situation we're talking about, Knight is either the same size or larger. That's what I'm trying to convey to you. For absolute clarity on what I'm saying, the situation here is when you played a three drop and they didn't counter it or remove it and you got to swing with it. On that swing Knight will at least be a 3/3, but more likely a 4/4 or 5/5. If they didn't remove thoctar yet, I'm willing to bet a lot of money it's because they don't have the stp for it. If they don't block and you fireblast before damage, Knight will result in more damage, thus exemplifying his synergy with Fireblast. This synergy is obvious.

I'm not arguing that thoctar is a slower card in general. I'm arguing that fireblast+knight is not awkward. Obviously it's a more reliable 4th turn swing, though personally I've never found the glamour of having a 'faster' three drop. Seems to me more burn or another two drop would be better when you're trying to be 'fast'.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

If you explained yourself and were correct I wouldn't need to argue.



In the situation we're talking about, Knight is either the same size or larger. That's what I'm trying to convey to you. For absolute clarity on what I'm saying, the situation here is when you played a three drop and they didn't counter it or remove it and you got to swing with it. On that swing Knight will at least be a 3/3, but more likely a 4/4 or 5/5. If they didn't remove thoctar yet, I'm willing to bet a lot of money it's because they don't have the stp for it. If they don't block and you fireblast before damage, Knight will result in more damage, thus exemplifying his synergy with Fireblast. This synergy is obvious.

I'm not arguing that thoctar is a slower card in general. I'm arguing that fireblast+knight is not awkward. Obviously it's a more reliable 4th turn swing, though personally I've never found the glamour of having a 'faster' three drop. Seems to me more burn or another two drop would be better when you're trying to be 'fast'.

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I explain myself everytime. But it's like you don't want to hear what i say. The first post i typed up over this i said Thoctar was faster than Knight. Then i went on to the mentioned Fireblast plus Knight scenario.

But why in the hell would you make bad plays for more damage? It's like you're trying to justify your scenario with bad plays. I'm saying Thoctar IS faster, and even in the made up scenario you just came up with, Thoctar is still better because a good player wouldn't even consider Fireblast before combat.

Then you go on to make a synergy argument, which is random as hell because i was just talking on a pure speed based conversation.

I don't see how much clearer i can be.

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Originally Posted by Gibsonmac

Thats why we play 4 pridemage, and multi grips post-board. And we have library to dig. Also, post board, we rock Susher so we can force pridemage through.

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Oh I'm aware. I'm just saying that it is entirely possible for moat to provide a speedbump, if not flat out buy enough time, to allow a properly constructed control deck to take over the game before we can force through a pridemage or find one game 1. And even game 2-3, all the sideboard hate in the world does no good if you can't drop it. Is moat the best plan? Hell no. Does it slow us down? For a period, and sometimes that's all it takes.

As a sideline observer to this KotR vs thoctar debate... it seems that thoctar will more frequently have 5 power. Maybe i'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure..

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Originally Posted by Sevryn

As a sideline observer to this KotR vs thoctar debate... it seems that thoctar will more frequently have 5 power. Maybe i'm wrong here, but I'm pretty sure..

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Yeah. I've played with Knight before, and you have to crack a bunch of fetches to make him big, or tap him which makes him waste an attack phase.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

I explain myself everytime. But it's like you don't want to hear what i say. The first post i typed up over this i said Thoctar was faster than Knight. Then i went on to the mentioned Fireblast plus Knight scenario.

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Throughout this whole thing I haven't tried to argue that Knight is faster. What I took issue with was when you said fireblast is more awkward in a deck with knight than with thoctar, because that is not true.

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But why in the hell would you make bad plays for more damage? It's like you're trying to justify your scenario with bad plays. I'm saying Thoctar IS faster, and even in the made up scenario you just came up with, Thoctar is still better because a good player wouldn't even consider Fireblast before combat.

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I'd make the arguement that a good player wouldn't run Fireblast at all, but as long as you're running such an all in card, I don't see the harm in casting it, albeit a little early, when you're very confident your opponent does not have any instant speed removal to take him out if it's going to result in more damage.

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Then you go on to make a synergy argument, which is random as hell because i was just talking on a pure speed based conversation.

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It's not random when the topic is whether or not fireblast and kotr are awkward together. They're not awkward; They're synergistic.

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I don't see how much clearer i can be.

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Quite a bit.

Edit//On turn three, yes, thoctar has more power. By the time you actually want your three drop to matter, Knight will almost always be larger.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Throughout this whole thing I haven't tried to argue that Knight is faster. What I took issue with was when you said fireblast is more awkward in a deck with knight than with thoctar, because that is not true.

I'd make the arguement that a good player wouldn't run Fireblast at all, but as long as you're running such an all in card, I don't see the harm in casting it, albeit a little early, when you're very confident your opponent does not have any instant speed removal to take him out if it's going to result in more damage.

It's not random when the topic is whether or not fireblast and kotr are awkward together. They're not awkward; They're synergistic.


Quite a bit.

Edit//On turn three, yes, thoctar has more power. By the time you actually want your three drop to matter, Knight will almost always be larger.

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Just stop, you're beating a dead horse. You don't have to justify anything anymore, you're just rambling at this point. Everyone has read this whole argument and i only have one reply in my favor, but i wouldn't doubt more than a few people agree with me.

That whole paragraph you wrote about playing Fireblast before combat, is still wrong. I don't care how confident i am. I don't care if my buddy is playing Merfolk Mill with not counters or removal, I would still never Fireblast before combat.

People who play Fireblast obviously want to end the game quickly, or they wouldn't play it. They would play another spell. Knight is not the creature to play if you want to kill your opponent ASAP, which is what i thought this deck wanted to do.

Before damage =/= before combat.

If all the deck cared about was killing ASAP, why are you playing a three drop?

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Before damage =/= before combat.

If all the deck cared about was killing ASAP, why are you playing a three drop?

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I'm assuming you're done at this point right?

That's what the deck is supposed to do and why it's good. I believe that a 5 power creature for 3 mana is pretty good. And I've never killed someone on turn 3, so i have some room to cast something.

Running a three drop at all lowers consistency. If you're trying to kill on turn 4 or 5 you're more likely to get more swings and more damage out of a two drop or a burn spell. Two drops are also faster in the face of mana denial and commonly played counters like daze. I do not believe the only thing Zoo cares about is winning ASAP, or else it would just move to look like GoyfSligh. After all this time, Zoo is a DTB and GoyfSligh is not... So Obviously Zoo's attention to pieces of the game after turn 4 must be worthwhile.

I just don't understand why you would choose to play a conditional creature (KotR) in zoo. not even nactl-conditional, because in a 3 color deck you will probably see a 2nd or 3rd color. Thoctar is ALWAYS five power for three mana, KotR's size depends on cracking fetchlands, drawing fireblast, and willingness to use fireblast. Thoctar swings for 5.

The only reason I can see running KotR is for utility reasons; cheating wasteland into play, adding a singleton nantuko monastery, other random things that probably belong in a different deck, and in any case you aren't even mentioning these advantages. Pretty sure KotR is just a little bit too cool and too conditional, when thoctar just happily swings for 5.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Running a three drop at all lowers consistency. If you're trying to kill on turn 4 or 5 you're more likely to get more swings and more damage out of a two drop or a burn spell. Two drops are also faster in the face of mana denial and commonly played counters like daze. I do not believe the only thing Zoo cares about is winning ASAP, or else it would just move to look like GoyfSligh. After all this time, Zoo is a DTB and GoyfSligh is not... So Obviously Zoo's attention to pieces of the game after turn 4 must be worthwhile.

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Okay? Yes Zoo is efficient. It wants to kill as quickly as possible, but because it's so efficient you don't need to run any different cards to make it so. It performs well Midrange too. It's not like people try and slow the deck down. It's original purpose also doubles as a good Midrange deck. So i don't see your point.

Also, the lines are beginning to blur with Goyf Sligh and Zoo, people splash white just for Nacatl in Goyf Sligh, but according to popular belief it's still Zoo, which it's not. The only difference is that Zoo has Pridemage, Path, and Nacatl, all of which could easily be run by Goyf Sligh, but then that makes it Zoo right? I once again don't see your point.

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Originally Posted by Sevryn

I just don't understand why you would choose to play a conditional creature (KotR) in zoo. not even nactl-conditional, because in a 3 color deck you will probably see a 2nd or 3rd color. Thoctar is ALWAYS five power for three mana, KotR's size depends on cracking fetchlands, drawing fireblast, and willingness to use fireblast. Thoctar swings for 5.

The only reason I can see running KotR is for utility reasons; cheating wasteland into play, adding a singleton nantuko monastery, other random things that probably belong in a different deck, and in any case you aren't even mentioning these advantages. Pretty sure KotR is just a little bit too cool and too conditional, when thoctar just happily swings for 5.

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Fireblast has nothing to do with Knight's usefulness. I run Knight without Fireblast. I was only talking about it at all because I felt Baileyarch was criticizing the card for nonexistant reasons.

The reason the deck runs KoTR is because he is a monster far beyond what Wooly Thoctar is capable of, and those who like him over thoctar, myself included, do not find the one less power on turn three to be a significant enough drawback compared to how good he is at dominating games turn 5-on. The reason I don't like thoctar is because I play in a meta where Tarmogoyf is larger than thoctar 90% of games, and when that is the case, why the fuck am I overpaying for a vanilla 5/4? I'd much rather have a creature than can give goyf the bird and win the game anyway.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Fireblast has nothing to do with Knight's usefulness. I run Knight without Fireblast. I was only talking about it at all because I felt Baileyarch was criticizing the card for nonexistant reasons.

The reason the deck runs KoTR is because he is a monster far beyond what Wooly Thoctar is capable of, and those who like him over thoctar, myself included, do not find the one less power on turn three to be a significant enough drawback compared to how good he is at dominating games turn 5-on. The reason I don't like thoctar is because I play in a meta where Tarmogoyf is larger than thoctar 90% of games, and when that is the case, why the fuck am I overpaying for a vanilla 5/4? I'd much rather have a creature than can give goyf the bird and win the game anyway.

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A 1 power difference in the early game? Why do you continually assume that you will crack two fetches every game? I promise you that you won't. And if you spend you're second turn activating Horizon Canopy then you're losing anyway.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

A 1 power difference in the early game? Why do you continually assume that you will crack two fetches every game?

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Because I do crack at least two fetches 95% of games. Keep in mind I run a higher fetch count than some people do.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Because I do crack at least two fetches 95% of games. Keep in mind I run a higher fetch count than some people do.

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It's still wrong to assume things like that. I run 10 fetches and I've had several games i can recall where I've cracked one.

And the one or two extra power matters over the course of 2 turns even. 4 damage matters.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

It's still wrong to assume things like that. I run 10 fetches and I've had several games i can recall where I've cracked one.

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I'm not assuming, I'm speaking from my experience playing my deck. I've played the hell out of this thing lately, and I know from experience that by the time I cast knight (Which I will again point out is usually not turn three) he's at least a 4/4, and usually larger.

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And the one or two extra power matters over the course of 2 turns even. 4 damage matters.

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I'm not saying those points of power don't matter. What I'm saying is I believe not being outclassed by the opponent's two drop matters more.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

I'm not assuming, I'm speaking from my experience playing my deck. I've played the hell out of this thing lately, and I know from experience that by the time I cast knight (Which I will again point out is usually not turn three) he's at least a 4/4, and usually larger.



I'm not saying those points of power don't matter. What I'm saying is I believe not being outclassed by the opponent's two drop matters more.

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No, you're assuming. It's that simple. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Just because all the games you've played you've fetched twice by the 3rd turn doesn't mean it will always happen. That IS assuming.

Yes Goyf can get to be a 5/6 by turn 4, but most of the time your Thoctar trades with their freshly cast Goyf. Hell, alot of games Goyf doesn't get 5/6.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

No, you're assuming. It's that simple. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Just because all the games you've played you've fetched twice by the 3rd turn doesn't mean it will always happen. That IS assuming.

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Not by the third turn, by the time I cast knight; Once again, he is the last threat I play in most games, making him come down turn 5-6 more often than turn 3 or 4. And I don't think relying on personal experience is assuming.

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Yes Goyf can get to be a 5/6 by turn 4, but most of the time your Thoctar trades with their freshly cast Goyf. Hell, alot of games Goyf doesn't get 5/6.

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I play in a meta where my pridemages go to the gy because I'm using their ability more often than combat. Thus goyfs are usually 5/6 pretty early. And even if goyf is a 4/5, I don't want to trade my three drop for their goyf. Trading 1 for 1 is bad for me. My deck has less card advantage and less threat protection than my opponent's deck almost guaranteed; if I'm going to have a three drop it needs to totally dominate the game for me to play it. That's why I don't like Thoctar. He just sits there as a 5/4 vanilla and trades or gets eaten by Legacy's favorite lhurgoyf. Knight can actually shrug off the lhurgoyf while drawing me cards with canopy. So yes, you're right, Thoctar is faster than Knight. But speed is not what I want out of my three drop.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Not by the third turn, by the time I cast knight; Once again, he is the last threat I play in most games, making him come down turn 5-6 more often than turn 3 or 4. And I don't think relying on personal experience is assuming.

I play in a meta where my pridemages go to the gy because I'm using their ability more often than combat. Thus goyfs are usually 5/6 pretty early. And even if goyf is a 4/5, I don't want to trade my three drop for their goyf. Trading 1 for 1 is bad for me. My deck has less card advantage and less threat protection than my opponent's deck almost guaranteed; if I'm going to have a three drop it needs to totally dominate the game for me to play it. That's why I don't like Thoctar. He just sits there as a 5/4 vanilla and trades or gets eaten by Legacy's favorite lhurgoyf. Knight can actually shrug off the lhurgoyf while drawing me cards with canopy. So yes, you're right, Thoctar is faster than Knight. But speed is not what I want out of my three drop.

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Seriously, all i hear at this point from you, is that you can't think of any other argument besides the, "In my metagame" one. This thread is supposed to work on the deck as a whole, not for individual people.

And i bet if some pro player made a Source screenname and posted the exact same thing that i said, that you would be agreeing with him. I'm sorry i'm a dick, but i make good points. I know when I've been beaten, but until then I'll keep arguing on what is right for the deck as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Seriously, all i hear at this point from you, is that you can't think of any other argument besides the, "In my metagame" one. This thread is supposed to work on the deck as a whole, not for individual people.

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Lol. Sorry for using that phrase. I'm assuming decks like CB Top and Merfolk are decks you see too in yours, no? Because that's what my meta has.

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And i bet if some pro player made a Source screenname and posted the exact same thing that i said, that you would be agreeing with him.

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Lol, now who's assuming? I'm sorry you're convinced that you're the only person who forms their own opinions, but that's awfully arrogant.

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I'm sorry i'm a dick,

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Yeah, you really are.

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but i make good points.

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Yes, but you don't need to insult everyone else to do it.

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I know when I've been beaten, but until then I'll keep arguing on what is right for the deck as a whole.

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And since this was a poor insult based on a straw man of my words, it's obviously worthless.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Lol. Sorry for using that phrase. I'm assuming decks like CB Top and Merfolk are decks you see too in yours, no? Because that's what my meta has.

Lol, now who's assuming? I'm sorry you're convinced that you're the only person who forms their own opinions, but that's awfully arrogant.

Yeah, you really are. Yes, but you don't need to insult everyone else to do it.
And since this was a poor insult based on a straw man of my words, it's obviously worthless.

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Haha. People just take things the wrong way, so if I'm a dick in all The Source's eyes, then oh no i could care less.

OOHH you're meta has Merfolk and Counterbalance? My meta has some of the best players the south has to offer. You think i'm pulling your chain, but I've been to GP Chicago and an Atlanta GP Legacy Event, and i haven't seen players half as good as the ones i play with every week. And they all pilot good decks too.

I don't assume, i base my opinions with facts and testing. You just don't like me so you continue to badger everything i post.

First of all, I only own 1 deck, Zoo. So I don't have the resources to play other decks. And honestly I don't really want to.

The Ascension card I was refering to is the white one, that makes angels. It was a pain at first, but won all the same. He plays a lot of sticks with fog like abilities, fun idea I am sure just not competitive.

As for Moat and Morphling, He dropped Moat and then next turn morphling, in game 1, I never seen my pridemages so it slowed me enough for morphling to kill me. games 2 and 3 after board it was no contest.

As for collapsing the meta, I don't think it's going to happen, yes I win often but there are top 4 prizes so others are winning as well.

Also there are 2-4 other ppl who often play but have been spotty in appearence this last month and 1/2. They play candaian thresh and counter balance and 43 land, which have in the past stolen or just flat beaten me.

So while yes I am on a win streak it won't last forever those 2-4 other good players always bring a good game to the table and I do loose, those are the decks I was really asking for advice verse.

Also My meta is for the most part very aggro heavy, and zoo just dominates it. If they wanna play eve green, goblins, or some other funky combo like painter then by all means.

Also last week in top 4 there was a kid playing something like eve green but his hippies where in the side in favor for rack..... I told him hippies should be main, he said no they shouldn't. So I didn't argue with him. Younger players are notorious for not listening or taking advice.

So please don't bash me without knowing the whole story, I am actually a fairly nice person (least I think so) and not some a-hole who loves to smash face all day with Nacatl.

Sorry for this type of post but felt it necessary to explain myself a little better as I was seeking advice on my favorite deck.
thanks again

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

I don't assume, i base my opinions with facts and testing.

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It's funny that when you rely on your experience with the deck it's testing, but when I do it it's assuming.

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You just don't like me so you continue to badger everything i post.

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I only don't like you when you post like an ass hole. We've had plenty of civil conversations before.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

It's funny that when you rely on your experience with the deck it's testing, but when I do it it's assuming. I only don't like you when you post like an ass hole. We've had plenty of civil conversations before.

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Because i don't post imaginary scenarios. And i don't say that KOTR will always be almost as big as Thoctar turn 3 or 4. Magic is a game of luck, and skill, but mostly luck, so don't assume anything.

Alright, I don't even know how to reply to that post. You're honestly saying that my testing is not valid... because... I don't even know why. Okay. I'll keep that in mind next time. I just won't even test because testing relies on personal experience and personal experience is not valid so I should just pick up a pile, say it's good, claim it's fact, and be on my way.

Will do, cap'n.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Alright, I don't even know how to reply to that post. You're honestly saying that my testing is not valid... because... I don't even know why. Okay. I'll keep that in mind next time. I just won't even test because testing relies on personal experience and personal experience is not valid so I should just pick up a pile, say it's good, claim it's fact, and be on my way.

Will do, cap'n.

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You sounds like my ex gfs. Jeez.

You know exactly what i meant by that. I know cards are good because i test them. I never said KOTR was bad, but i think Thoctar is better for the deck. AS A WHOLE. Idk if you caught that like a million posts ago, but that's how i said it.

And i still don't understand how assuming you will always crack 3 fetches by turn 4 is realistic at all! Oh wait, because it's not!

No, I don't know what you meant by that. You literally said you rely on your testing. When I say I rely on mine, you say it's assuming and not valid.

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And i still don't understand how assuming you will always crack 3 fetches by turn 4 is realistic at all! Oh wait, because it's not!

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You're right, it's not realistic, which is why I never said it was.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

No, I don't know what you meant by that. You literally said you rely on your testing. When I say I rely on mine, you say it's assuming and not valid.

You're right, it's not realistic, which is why I never said it was.

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Are you serious?

You're just being ignorant at this point. You don't ever here me saying I'll always cast a 1cc creature on turn one. You don't hear me say I'll crack one fetch per game. I don't make any claims like that because i know that they won't always happen, and there is prolly a big percentage that they couldn't happen multiple times in a row. But you led off with, "I'm hungryLIKEALION and i fetch enough so my KOTR is always as big or 1 power off turn 4."

You stand by that, and it makes no sense. You'd be better off saying, "I got lucky and drew all the fetches i need every game."

Realistically Thoctar deals more damage that KOTR when the deck wants to deal damage. And even in the mid/late game, i could see Thoctar dealing more damage with a normal deck with 8 fetches.

I'm getting pretty sick of arguing at this point and should really be finishing my midterm paper due wednesday, so forgive me if my responses start getting pretty short. In fact, after this post, it may be best if we just resolve to disagree

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Are you serious?

You're just being ignorant at this point. You don't ever here me saying I'll always cast a 1cc creature on turn one. You don't hear me say I'll crack one fetch per game. I don't make any claims like that because i know that they won't always happen, and there is prolly a big percentage that they couldn't happen multiple times in a row. But you led off with, "I'm hungryLIKEALION and i fetch enough so my KOTR is always as big or 1 power off turn 4."

You stand by that, and it makes no sense. You'd be better off saying, "I got lucky and drew all the fetches i need every game."

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I stand by the fact that in a large majority of games I've played with my deck, I am able to remember how many fetches I've drawn, how many wastelands my opponent has played, and all the other relevant statistics. I can't honestly remember the last time I cast Knight and he wasn't a 4/4 at least. And I take notes at almost all my tournaments, and I'm looking at them right now, and I see that in the middle of June I apparently played him as a 3/3. Once. And I've played hundreds of games this summer, and the only times I don't take notes is when I'm playing against a scrub without a real deck. I'm sorry if this is assuming, but I think my hundreds of games of notes count as valid testing.

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Realistically Thoctar deals more damage that KOTR when the deck wants to deal damage. And even in the mid/late game, i could see Thoctar dealing more damage with a normal deck with 8 fetches.

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Then this is the difference in our views. You want a 3 drop to deal damage on turn 4 and 5. I want my 3 drop to punch through larger opposing creatures and win me games I wouldn't have otherwise won. So let's just agree to disagree now, we've derailed this thread enough with our bitching.

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I play in a meta where my pridemages go to the gy because I'm using their ability more often than combat. Thus goyfs are usually 5/6 pretty early. And even if goyf is a 4/5, I don't want to trade my three drop for their goyf. Trading 1 for 1 is bad for me. My deck has less card advantage and less threat protection than my opponent's deck almost guaranteed;

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Instant, Land, Sorcery, Creature, and Artifact/Enchantment most games around turn 4-5?!?

Really, what the fuck are you guys doing, playing Millstones? Goyf is like a 3/4 on turn 5.


Ponder and Chain Lightning are the only common sorceries (Oh, I remembered Rift Bolt, which I don't run).

And what artifacts/enchantments are going to the yard? You either don't run any or run like Jitte and/or Sylvan Library, and your only removal main is probably Pridemage. You wouldn't Pridemage a top, so the only real possible target is Counterbalance -- that's if he let your Pridemage resolve.

So now your opponent needs to have Counterbalance (but no Force) and you need to have Pridemage and then you need to sacrifice your Pridemage to kill their Counterbalance. And that's taking Instant, Land, and Creature for granted. Certainly some of the time, one of those is missing.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

So now your opponent needs to have Counterbalance (but no Force) and you need to have Pridemage and then you need to sacrifice your Pridemage to kill their Counterbalance. And that's taking Instant, Land, and Creature for granted. Certainly some of the time, one of those is missing.

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Pretty sure pridemage is a creature.

I'm really trying to be done with this argument so this is the last thinnill say aboutnit. Standstill, EE, Deed, Dreadnaught, and SB cards people play; keep in mind that two thirds of all games take place after sideboarding.

Ok so Siding, I've read through and haven't really seen anyone talk about how and or what they like to side in verse the other DTB.
siding has always been one of my weakest points in magic, I never know what to take out. Putting cards in is no problem.
So a quick list of DTB-- (feel free to add to this list but this is what I often see)
Counter Top
43 Land
canadian thresh
goblins
dredge
landstill / WU control
Merfolk
Stax - white version
g/b rock
eva green
sui black (I realize that a few of these decks are not DTB -- such as sui black, possible rock as well)

My personal SB looks like so:
2 stp
3 krosan grip
2 red elemental blast -- going to replace not sure for what though
2 choke
3 price of progress
2 vexing shusher
1 Jitte

a few other cards I seen mentioned:
EE ? further testing on this?

gaddock teeg -- I'll be using him I think verse land and dredge, which are a pain to lay verse

cannonist -- used in legacy?

Tormods crypt -- I know it is used but don't see many zoo lists with it? is there a reason?

I've also been considering using the new black card (ravenous trap) I think it's called. thoughts?

what am I missing?
thanks for reading and your input.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

keep in mind that two thirds of all games take place after sideboarding.

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That's not true. It's somewhere less than 2/3 and greater than 1/2. Not all matches go to three games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inkaras

Ok so Siding, I've read through and haven't really seen anyone talk about how and or what they like to side in verse the other DTB.
siding has always been one of my weakest points in magic, I never know what to take out. Putting cards in is no problem.
So a quick list of DTB-- (feel free to add to this list but this is what I often see)
Counter Top
43 Land
canadian thresh
goblins
dredge
landstill / WU control
Merfolk
Stax - white version
g/b rock
eva green
sui black (I realize that a few of these decks are not DTB -- such as sui black, possible rock as well)

My personal SB looks like so:
2 stp
3 krosan grip
2 red elemental blast -- going to replace not sure for what though
2 choke
3 price of progress
2 vexing shusher
1 Jitte

a few other cards I seen mentioned:
EE ? further testing on this?

gaddock teeg -- I'll be using him I think verse land and dredge, which are a pain to lay verse

cannonist -- used in legacy?

Tormods crypt -- I know it is used but don't see many zoo lists with it? is there a reason?

I've also been considering using the new black card (ravenous trap) I think it's called. thoughts?

what am I missing?
thanks for reading and your input.

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Canonist/teeg are great against TES/ANT (combo) so they are quite powerful weapons against them, although I would skip it if you don't run into those matches often.

I would go to 2 grips (with 4 pridemages main, 6 A/E removal is plenty)

Tormod's crypt/relic are VERY important if Dredge is present... Relic is more useful against Thresh than crypt, so if dredge is common, definately want 2-3 of these bad boys, use a split between the two because dredge players love pithing needle to shut down your answers.

The trap is weak...

I would replace REB/pyroblast with crypt/relic... but remember, sideboards should be adjusted every tournament based on expectations, do some do-diligence to find out what to expect then plan accordingly... your present SB with the addition of crypt/relic and replacing StP with teeg would be a pretty good 'swiss-army knife' sideboard to cover all your bases in an unkown meta.

@inkaras
The only thing I am sure about sidebording against is dredge. The best way to attack them is to use hate that they won't think of. Ravenous trap is pretty new and i don't think that pilots will expect to see a black card in zoo even though it costs 0 mana. The trap has worked really well for me, and I had no situations where I couldn't play it for free and wanted to.

As for the rest of your questions I am also interested to hear what the more vociferous posters in this thread have to say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Then trying to say you care about something besides speed draws away from that point, so it's kind of pointless to point out that thoctar is faster in the first place.

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While it might be mildly off topic, I wanted to tell you how impressed I am that you used "point" as a noun, an adjective, and a verb in the same sentence. NICE!