[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

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Originally Posted by Jon

Yeah I had to walk outside and get air. Its really stressful to lose to a match that feels like 90/10.

I will play TinFins again when the time comes (When my friend gives it to me) but for now back to the Belcher / SI / Doomsday side of the world!

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I like "unfair" people :)

Most of my friends are "unfair" too. There is only one guy from us who plays decks like Jund, Maverick, RUG and so on (but of course he owns Dredge and Belcher too :-P) so he has to take the beatings most oft the time.

My cardpool consists mainly of TES, ANT, Tinfins, Dredge (LED and Manaless), Belcher and about 90% of the cards required for SI and Doomsday.

ANT is my long time favorite though and Tinfins my newest addition (got pursuaded by some of my friends: "let us all build Tinfins and terrorize people" "well...uhm...ok!").

I struggled with some inconsistency issues at first, but Koby's and Acclimation's decklist really worked out well in testing so far. So I guess there will be some Griselbrand at BoM Annecy (at least in the trials for me).

Greetings Chris

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

I struggled with some inconsistency issues at first, but Koby's and Acclimation's decklist really worked out well in testing so far. So I guess there will be some Griselbrand at BoM Annecy (at least in the trials for me).

Greetings Chris

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That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too? :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Koby

That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too? :laugh:

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Discouraging?

HA! Those "poor" finishes give me encouragement to do better.

All of those points are correct though. Once we get the mana configuration optimized, the deck will be ANT level good.

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?

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Yes please!

How much do you guys really like the reanimate? Is it something you prefer to keep?

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

How much do you guys really like the reanimate? Is it something you prefer to keep?

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I personally like the reanimate, since it lets us have some interesting lines of play.

I've had games in which I've Reanimated Griselbrand on t1 and played like reanimator. It lets us get Children into play (again) for 1 mana and counts towards the life loss for its ability.

If it is taking up any particular slot, it would be the 4th Goryo, and I feel like the above reasons more than make up for the fact that we can't reanimate Emrakul with Reanimate, nor the fact that it gives whatever we Reanimate haste.

Indeed, I have been playing with the 4th Vengeance for a while now. It does put me more "all in" obviously. Maybe I will try it, I just hate losing all that life without getting a new full grip.

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I prefer Reanimate to the 4th Goryo's Vengeance for a variety of reasons, but namely because Vengeance can't reanimate children of korlis. Reanimate has lots of other utility (nabbing your opponents creatures from their graveyard after you've discarded them is always a great feeling) as well, but really it comes down to being able to make Children. If you've spent your shallow grave on Griselbrand already, having 4 cards left that can reanimate Children is worth it in my opinion.

It's a similar reason why I prefer the 1st Mox Diamond to the 2nd Chrome Mox - I just want another Lotus petal. If I could run 6 Lotus Petals I would.

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Originally Posted by .dk

I prefer Reanimate to the 4th Goryo's Vengeance for a variety of reasons, but namely because Vengeance can't reanimate children of korlis. Reanimate has lots of other utility (nabbing your opponents creatures from their graveyard after you've discarded them is always a great feeling) as well, but really it comes down to being able to make Children. If you've spent your shallow grave on Griselbrand already, having 4 cards left that can reanimate Children is worth it in my opinion.

It's a similar reason why I prefer the 1st Mox Diamond to the 2nd Chrome Mox - I just want another Lotus petal. If I could run 6 Lotus Petals I would.

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^^ +1 on both paragraphs!

I feel like one of these days, I should make some Tinfins vs the World videos.

I feel that sometimes it's easier to see a deck play against certain match-ups, as well with commentary to explain decisions than it is to explain it via text in theoretical situations.

Yes. Play against the Delver triple threat (RUG, BUG, Patriot) and esper death and stoneblade. That basically sums up "the world" currently, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Yes. Play against the Delver triple threat (RUG, BUG, Patriot) and esper death and stoneblade. That basically sums up "the world" currently, anyway.

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How about I jam 10 games against Jund so we can watch my friend get pissed at how good at Cabal Therapy I am?

Hahaha yes. That will show him. Will he stick around for 10 games? If I were to play Jund, I wouldn't...

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Went 2-1 at a local tonight, losing in the championship round. Unfortunately, fewer people showed up than usual so it was 3 rounds instead of 4+. I played 2 games on camera, so I'll link that if anyone wants to watch me play poorly. I didn't get much sleep last night, so I made a few foolish moves (I was flustered trying to combo out one game and tried to flashback cabal therapy from my hand lol). Here is the link: http://www.twitch.tv/meadhallgames

I ran the standard list, 4-3 cabal/ seize split, 2 LDV, 14 lands, 1 mox.

Round 1: Beat U/W Stoneblade 2-0.
Game 1 I go off t1 for a storm win.
Game 2, I was at 5 life facing down a meddling mage and stoneforge mystic. I swing, draw 7, and set up an emrakul win next turn with protection. I stripped his hand earlier of rest in piece and spell pierce.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 LDV, -1 reanimate, +4 silence, +3 CoV (I thought about massacre but decided against it)

Round 2: 2-0 vs Lands (on camera)
Game 1 I go off again t1, but get flustered trying to get to 10 storm (I was at 8 with 5 mana and tendrils in hand). This was my cabal therapy play, but I used 1 mana to get to 9 storm, tendrils win.
Game two he mulls to 4 I mull to 6. Neither of us draw anything for like 10 turns (i had a goryos in the opening grip, and some discard). Eventually, I get the entomb and it is game over with a emrakul and griselbrand swing.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 ponder, -1 LDV, -1 Reanimate +3 CoV, +2 pithing needle, +2 serenity

Round 3: Loss 0-2 to Merfolk (on camera)
Game 1 he plays cursecatcher and passes. I play a land, lotus petal, and mox on blue. I knew his hand from a g probe. End of his turn i spend 4 life with LDV finding the entomb. My turn I go off t2, draw 14 cards (I was at 14 life so had to GB swing). I am one mana short of getting COK. I set up a win for next turn, but forget he has a mutavault while I am at 2 life.
Game 2-I mull to 6, keeping a lose hand with cabal and GB, mana sources. In hindsight, maybe I mull there. I cabal him a couple times (I drew another) and sacced COK to cabal myself. Meanwhile he had a t1 relic of progentitus in play. I pretty much know I'm done, I cabal myself, his turn he removes my graveyard. Game over. Even though he had a FOW in hand as I found out, I had 2 shallow graves in hand, and should have waited a turn to see if I got another mana source/ dark rit to be able to double cast shallow graves.
Sideboarded: -4 probe, -1 reanimate, -1 LDV, +4 silence, +2 chain of vapor

All in all I was running hot, and I think I just got unlucky with the fizzle against Merfolk. Otherwise, we would have had an interesting Game 3.

Until next time, keep drawing multiples of 7 :)

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Hahaha yes. That will show him. Will he stick around for 10 games? If I were to play Jund, I wouldn't...

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Ofc he will. We play that match-up all the time. And I win 9/10 games.

I also can read him like a book and haven't missed a Therapy against him in months.

I need to make this happen so we can have a chuckle at the profanity laced, 2 Chainz referencing games we have.

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Went 2-1 at a local tonight, losing in the championship round. Unfortunately, fewer people showed up than usual so it was 3 rounds instead of 4+. I played 2 games on camera, so I'll link that if anyone wants to watch me play poorly. I didn't get much sleep last night, so I made a few foolish moves (I was flustered trying to combo out one game and tried to flashback Cabal Therapy from my hand lol). Here is the link: http://www.twitch.tv/meadhallgames

I ran the standard list, 4-3 cabal/ seize split, 2 LDV, 14 lands, 1 mox.

Round 1: Beat U/W Stoneblade 2-0.
Game 1 I go off t1 for a storm win.
Game 2, I was at 5 life facing down a Meddling Mage and Stoneforge Mystic. I swing, draw 7, and set up an emrakul win next turn with protection. I stripped his hand earlier of rest in piece and Spell Pierce.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 LDV, -1 reanimate, +4 silence, +3 CoV (I thought about massacre but decided against it)

Round 2: 2-0 vs Lands (on camera)
Game 1 I go off again t1, but get flustered trying to get to 10 storm (I was at 8 with 5 mana and tendrils in hand). This was my Cabal Therapy play, but I used 1 mana to get to 9 storm, tendrils win.
Game two he mulls to 4 I mull to 6. Neither of us draw anything for like 10 turns (i had a goryos in the opening grip, and some discard). Eventually, I get the entomb and it is game over with a emrakul and griselbrand swing.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 ponder, -1 LDV, -1 Reanimate +3 CoV, +2 Pithing Needle, +2 serenity

Round 3: Loss 0-2 to Merfolk (on camera)
Game 1 he plays cursecatcher and passes. I play a land, Lotus Petal, and mox on blue. I knew his hand from a g probe. End of his turn i spend 4 life with LDV finding the entomb. My turn I go off t2, draw 14 cards (I was at 14 life so had to GB swing). I am one Mana Short of getting COK. I set up a win for next turn, but forget he has a mutavault while I am at 2 life.
Game 2-I mull to 6, keeping a lose hand with cabal and GB, mana sources. In hindsight, maybe I mull there. I cabal him a couple times (I drew another) and sacced COK to cabal myself. Meanwhile he had a t1 relic of progentitus in play. I pretty much know I'm done, I cabal myself, his turn he removes my graveyard. Game over. Even though he had a FOW in hand as I found out, I had 2 Shallow Grave in hand, and should have waited a turn to see if I got another mana source/ dark rit to be able to double cast Shallow Grave.
Sideboarded: -4 probe, -1 reanimate, -1 LDV, +4 silence, +2 Chain of Vapor

All in all I was running hot, and I think I just got unlucky with the fizzle against Merfolk. Otherwise, we would have had an interesting Game 3.

Until next time, keep drawing multiples of 7 :)

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Good report. Sometimes you just get unlucky when it counts.

I want to add that it seems like I get mana flooded more than I get mana screwed (maybe I just have bad luck). So, I want to go back to testing the 13 lands, and either 2 chrome mox, or 1 chrome and 1 diamond.

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Originally Posted by cogitoergosum

I want to add that it seems like I get mana flooded more than I get mana screwed (maybe I just have bad luck). So, I want to go back to testing the 13 lands, and either 2 chrome mox, or 1 chrome and 1 diamond.

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With 15 land, I never get screwed now. I'd like to ask you to test the diamond so we get more data, but with only 13 lands it may hurt you to play it. Have you tried 14 lands, 1 chrome Mox, one Mox diamond?

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

Discouraging?

HA! Those "poor" finishes give me encouragement to do better.

All of those points are correct though. Once we get the mana configuration optimized, the deck will be ANT level good.

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

Comparing it with the ANT manabase:

ANT:
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Tin-Fins:
1 Scrubland
1 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

It worked out very well so far.

While we are at it: Whats with Preordain instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault? I do not like the 2 cmc of the latter, but it will always dig you the missing parts. I learned to love Preordain, while playing ANT. But I guess it digs not deep enough in Tin-Fins, so it will slow us down and require addional cantripping. Anyone has done some testing here?

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Originally Posted by Koby

That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too?

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You are welcome.

This deck in general is lots of fun to play and I like this decklist alot.

Can't wait to bring it to the battlefield. Sadly there are not many events where I live. Hope for an Infinite Trial Package at BoM 9 :)

Greetings Chris

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

<there were words here>

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

It worked out very well so far.

While we are at it: Whats with Preordain instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault? I do not like the 2 cmc of the latter, but it will always dig you the missing parts. I learned to love Preordain, while playing ANT. But I guess it digs not deep enough in Tin-Fins, so it will slow us down and require addional cantripping. Anyone has done some testing here?

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The actual mana base itself is great, 14 is the sweet spot, with 13 being correct if you are in a combo heavy meta. The mana issues that we are having are from needing a non land mana source to continue comboing. We have 4 Petal and 1 Mox, which are great most of the time, but I've sometimes lost games or had games go on longer due to not drawing 1 or more of those. It's something that comes up often enough that the majority of us feel the need to address it, but we've made 0 progress lately due to a lack of tournaments and/or testing on the people running the same list.

The problem is, is that to add something we need to cut something, and if we have too much mana, we risk losing out on something else, whether it be protection, business or cantrips. We're strapped for business, cutting cantrips isn't ideal, and our protection helps us to bin creatures if necessary. I'm thinking that with the current set up, we could cut the 3rd Thoughtseize for a Mox Diamond, FWIW, but can't do any testing due to having no Diamonds nor a play group in my area.

Which brings me to your next point, why LDV over Preordain? Simply put, we are often bottlenecked by Entomb and LDV helps us find Entomb, as well as any other card that we might need.

Sometimes it's correct to t2 LDV to set up for a t3 kill. Sometimes LDV gets imprinted. Sometimes it's irrelevant. Sometimes it helps us dig in the late game. It's a versatile card that goes deep and finds us the combination we need to win. Preordain just digs, and the scry is weak in a shuffle heavy deck such as this. Vault does a lot of heavy lifting when needed, whereas Preordain is weak.

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

The actual mana base itself is great, 14 is the sweet spot, with 13 being correct if you are in a combo heavy meta. The mana issues that we are having are from needing a non land mana source to continue comboing. We have 4 Petal and 1 Mox, which are great most of the time, but I've sometimes lost games or had games go on longer due to not drawing 1 or more of those. It's something that comes up often enough that the majority of us feel the need to address it, but we've made 0 progress lately due to a lack of tournaments and/or testing on the people running the same list.

The problem is, is that to add something we need to cut something, and if we have too much mana, we risk losing out on something else, whether it be protection, business or cantrips. We're strapped for business, cutting cantrips isn't ideal, and our protection helps us to bin creatures if necessary. I'm thinking that with the current set up, we could cut the 3rd Thoughtseize for a Mox Diamond, FWIW, but can't do any testing due to having no Diamonds nor a play group in my area.

Which brings me to your next point, why LDV over Preordain? Simply put, we are often bottlenecked by Entomb and LDV helps us find Entomb, as well as any other card that we might need.

Sometimes it's correct to t2 LDV to set up for a t3 kill. Sometimes LDV gets imprinted. Sometimes it's irrelevant. Sometimes it helps us dig in the late game. It's a versatile card that goes deep and finds us the combination we need to win. Preordain just digs, and the scry is weak in a shuffle heavy deck such as this. Vault does a lot of heavy lifting when needed, whereas Preordain is weak.

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The LDV vs Preordain explanation makes sense.

Why Mox Diamond over a second Chrome Mox? Chrome Mox has a lot more "targets", but after comboing out it doesn't really matter I guess. Mox Diamond can "hardcast" CoK in the combo turn though.

Is it possible to cut a land for a mox? Or is it to much stress on the manabase due to all these tempo decks around? I think 15 permanent mana sources is about the right number and the number of moxes in it makes you better or worse before the combo and in the combo.

Greetings Chris

Personally, I like the 1st Mox Diamond over the 2nd Chrome Mox mainly due to pre-combo issues with Chrome Mox. I usually find that I rarely have dead cards in my hand, and I hate pitching cards that I want either as disruption or combo pieces (looking at you specifically Therapy/Thoughtseize) to yet ANOTHER Chrome Mox to make more mana. Mox Diamond is a more versatile mana piece, but has a slimmer selection of cards to pitch to it... however if I'm pitching 1 land for another mana source, then I don't feel as bad as needing to pitch disruption or business. The deck can function off of very few lands in play, so trading a land for a mox diamond doesn't seem to bad. Furthermore, Mox Diamond can't be wastelanded and can cast every spell in the deck, including Children.

The reason why I like the 1st Chrome Mox over the 1st Mox Diamond really just comes down to the amount of cards in the deck to pitch to them. Chrome Mox can actually do something pre-combo more often than Mox Diamond.

But, YMMV, and I can see why my argument for the 1st Chrome Mox can apply to the second one as well too. Test and find out your own preference. :)

Chrome Mox is already the worst card to draw prior to going off with Griselbrand. Adding Mox Diamond increases the amount of useless draws. While flooding with lands is basically the same thing, and Brainstorm is a helluva card to help alleviate those situations, it sucks when you need the permanent mana source of a land and instead topdeck a Mox. I'm ambivalent to the first Mox, but the second makes the odds that much higher of missing something useful instead.

Consider the odds of drawing in your opening hand a singleton in your deck is 11.67%. Roughly 1 in 9 games, you will fan open a hand containing Chrome Mox. Bumping up to 2 Mox increases that odds to 20.96%, or 1 in 5 games. Roughly translated to matches, that's 1 in 4 matches for running 1 Mox, and once in every other match with 2 Mox. Sometimes you'll win because you have the access to additional fast mana. Other times, you won't be able to play the Mox and it will be a dead card. It's hard to quantify just how useful Mox is outside the combo phase.

Either and both Moxen are useful cards once you've got Griselbrand in play. There's no denying that. The question thus becomes, how much of a nuisance are Moxen prior to Griselbrand?

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Originally Posted by Koby

Either and both Moxen are useful cards once you've got Griselbrand in play. There's no denying that. The question thus becomes, how much of a nuisance are Moxen prior to Griselbrand?

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And, what is the right balance between nuisance pre-combo, and a lower percentage of fizzling mid-combo. I guess you summarized my post in terms of nuisance - if I were to run 2 moxen (which I honestly have no idea - haven't sleeved the deck up in a long while), I have found (anecdotal) the split to be less of a nuisance than 2 Chrome Mox.

Stupid phone app not posting my message.

Anyway, I've been noticing more that I need that 1 extra non land mana source to continue comboing off, and 5 artifact mana sources aren't cutting it. Adding a 6th will help that problem, but are the gains worth any potential losses pre combo?

I have no testing one way or another due to a lack of play group, and while we can theory craft the numbers, some actual testing should be done. I do agree that the first Diamond should come before the 2nd Chrome, since picking a card to Imprint is sometimes very hard, but I always have dead lands in hand mid combo.

The other idea that I had would be to add a 5th ritual to the deck. If we can start our combo with an extra ritual, then we are in good shape. The problem is, what rituals do we want?

1) Culling the Weak is right out
2) Cabal Ritual costs 2, but we can hit threshold fairly easily.
3) Rain of Filth costs 1, but is only good if we have 2+ lands out and hurts us if we aren't winning that turn.
4) Bubbling Muck isn't a ritual, but I do know I fetch out Swamps primarily, so it could give us that extra 1 mana boost we need from 2 lands.


Anyway, those are just my initial thoughts on the matter, based off of my observations with the deck.

I personally play one Mox Diam over the one-off Chrome mox. Most of the time I found myself not wanting to give away a card on Chrome Mox. So I find it quite useless before comboing-off. In testing I have more situations when I've got one extra land and can discard it to Mox Diamond than wanting to imprint a card on Chrome Mox. And after comboing-off, Mox Diam is way better as it can give us the white mana we always need, all the more when we don't draw into our Lotus Petal. Plus, the opening hands with 2 lands, one of wchich is a Fetch, Mox Diam and a BS are magic. I'm not considering changing it for Chrome Mox anymore.

My humble 2cents.

Thanks for the feedback. It's a good account of how Mox Diamond is working out in these lists. I often burn a turn 1 Lotus Petal to have a kick-ass Brainstorm on turn 1; and this makes those hands much better.

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

Comparing it with the ANT manabase:

ANT:
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Tin-Fins:
1 Scrubland
1 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

Greetings Chris

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I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

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I don't think a mana base like ANT's is good for us though. ANT needs to achieve a critical mass of mana in order to chain 10 spells together, with the highest costing card being 5, and has to be able to hit 4 mana at minimum for Tendrils.

On the other hand, we need 3 mana to Entomb+Reanimate, and then another 3 mana to do it again for Emrakul. Each segment is easily cast off of a Dark Ritual, so any Rits that we draw reduce our mana requirements by 2 per ritual. In an ideal world, we Rit>Entomb>Grave, draw 7, Petal>Rit>Entomb>Grave swing and win, needing only 2 mana sources to combo.

When it comes to mana bottle necks for the deck, it usually comes down to missing one of two parts: a Dark Ritual or a mana rock. Sometimes it is correct to wait a turn to combo so we have the spare mana going into our combo (such as waiting for t3 to have a land drop and a spare land in play already). Sometimes it's correct to Rit>Entomb>Grave at the opponent's endstep so we untap with full mana. But those situations are based on game state and can't be dependable.

I think that if you are 15 lands, you tend to play the deck as more of a t3 combo deck, and having 6 mana rocks can be a bit much, since you are now down 2 business/cantrips/protection slots over the 14 land lists.

14 and under lands, you are sprinting to go off on turn 1.5 and having 6 rocks helps toward that end, and the current config of 5 does work very well.


Either way, I'm curious as to what your testing brings you.

Wishing you luck!

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Originally Posted by DavidHernandez

I have to disagree with this. ANT runs fifteen lands and in addition, it runs four Lions Eye Diamonds, four Cabal Rituals, and often a second Chrome Mox. And it had four Lotus Petals. This is based on the list that recently took the high finish at SCG. Tin Fins has Mana base problems that need to be corrected.

To say the deck has a Mana base like ANT is not true. It NEEDS a base like ANTs. But LEDs won't work for us, and without more lands, Cabal Rituals are bad too.

Chrome Mox is good as a one-of, but two of them forces the unacceptable loss of business spells at critical points in the game, literally the difference between going off or fizzling.


I am convinced that 15 lands is the right number for Tin Fins, with four Lotus Petals, one Chrome Mox and 1 Mox diamond in the mix, along with four dark rituals.

Going to use it tonight and focus on excellent play so there are no excuses.

Dave

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Thanks for pointing that out. I was under the impression that the manabase is the permanent mana configuration, while IMS and rituals count towards fast mana.

Thats why I asked whats wrong with the mana base.

I am well aware that ANT plays more rituals and rocks ;)

Good luck for your tournament.

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

I don't think a mana base like ANT's is good for us though. ANT needs to achieve a critical mass of mana in order to chain 10 spells together, with the highest costing card being 5, and has to be able to hit 4 mana at minimum for Tendrils.

On the other hand, we need 3 mana to Entomb+Reanimate, and then another 3 mana to do it again for Emrakul. Each segment is easily cast off of a Dark Ritual, so any Rits that we draw reduce our mana requirements by 2 per ritual. In an ideal world, we Rit>Entomb>Grave, draw 7, Petal>Rit>Entomb>Grave swing and win, needing only 2 mana sources to combo.

When it comes to mana bottle necks for the deck, it usually comes down to missing one of two parts: a Dark Ritual or a mana rock. Sometimes it is correct to wait a turn to combo so we have the spare mana going into our combo (such as waiting for t3 to have a land drop and a spare land in play already). Sometimes it's correct to Rit>Entomb>Grave at the opponent's endstep so we untap with full mana. But those situations are based on game state and can't be dependable.

I think that if you are 15 lands, you tend to play the deck as more of a t3 combo deck, and having 6 mana rocks can be a bit much, since you are now down 2 business/cantrips/protection slots over the 14 land lists.

14 and under lands, you are sprinting to go off on turn 1.5 and having 6 rocks helps toward that end, and the current config of 5 does work very well.


Either way, I'm curious as to what your testing brings you.

Wishing you luck!

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Agreed. Extremely low mana requirements are one of the advantages of TinFins over other storm decks. We really start needing to generate mana mid-combo rather than hitting some critical threshold before going off (especially if circumstances dictate that you need to use your attack step), which is why I emphasize IMSs over lands. I'll give Diamond a try over the second Chrome and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Agreed. Extremely low mana requirements are one of the advantages of TinFins over other storm decks. We really start needing to generate mana mid-combo rather than hitting some critical threshold before going off (especially if circumstances dictate that you need to use your attack step), which is why I emphasize IMSs over lands. I'll give Diamond a try over the second Chrome and see how it goes.

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there's a good chance i'm going to audible to this on Sunday at #SCGSEA, so i'm going to try the 1/1 Chrome/Diamond build in a round of testing tonight. i most often fizzle with the deck (i.e. can't add emrakul to a hasty griselbrand OR make children) because i didn't hit an additional IMS. time to #yoloswag

OK so let's assume we're playing a 61 card list with 2 Moxen (1 Chrome, 1 Diamond) -- based on Logan/Koby's list, which card do we cut to fit the 2nd Mox?

Gitaxian Probe?
Silence?
Land?

What about cutting Silence? Currently not playing this deck, but I played Koby's list (your BOM list) a lot in MTGO. Always felt that one-of silence at main was too random. Great when it was good, but the worst when was bad.

Forgot I also ran -1 lim dul's because I'm a maniac who only can play 60 cards decks.

I'm against cutting land 14 in a list running diamond. Cut probe down to 3.

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I would be cutting the Silence/3rd Thoughtseize slot for this.

6 pieces of protection is plenty, Probe does a lot of work, and shaving a land in a 14 land base for a card that requires you to pitch a land doesn't seem like a good idea.

i'm gonna run 61/14 with no silence main, 1 LDV, and 1 Mox Diamond.

Can someone explain to me, why you ever would want more than 60 cards in a deck which always wants to have an Entomb in (starting) hand ? Where is the logic ...? Because some statistics tells you will just lose 1 out of 61 games because of that or what...?

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Originally Posted by Koby

OK so let's assume we're playing a 61 card list with 2 Moxen (1 Chrome, 1 Diamond) -- based on Logan/Koby's list, which card do we cut to fit the 2nd Mox?

Gitaxian Probe?
Silence?
Land?

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Cutting a land for Mox Diamond ? o_O Isn't Chrome Mox just better or equally good before and after combo except you are flooded with lands...? Is it because of the Children... ?

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Originally Posted by Joe Eigo

Cutting a land for Mox Diamond ? o_O Isn't Chrome Mox just better or equally good before and after combo except you are flooded with lands...? Is it because of the Children... ?

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Post combo it's actually way better. Since you only get one land drop per turn and we're generally trying to go off as fast as possible, a lot of times you've already used your land drop before you start to draw off Grizzlebees. Chrome and Diamond are equally good in this situation, because you need another mana source to keep going, but you have plenty of fodder to pitch.